Blue, just want to address a few of your points...

1) The instigating penalty/suspension on Malkin would have most likely been overturned in the regular season as well. That rule was made so that people wouldnt take runs in the final minutes of games. And ALL of those penalties go under review to see if a suspension is warranted. I work for the Dallas Stars and have seen multiple penalties of this nature overturned since they created it. It was the right call to let him play in Game 3.

2) on Malkins +17. I agree it could be better. And if he wants to be the greatest ever (like Gretzky, who had a season at almost +100) then he will have to shore up his D. But, at the same time, +17 is still pretty good. If you look at league stats, most high scoring players arent much better. Ovie and Sid are +3 and +7 or something. So, I guess i feel like you are being a little critical of the guy. He creates a LOT of turnovers on D, IMO.

3) you actually did say that Babcock would bench him if he didnt become the best. That is what started this conversation.

quote:

---

I have a feeling that he would either become the greatest hockey player in the world, or be riding the bench with no option in between.

---

I understand that your team is THE hockey team in the NHL, (and i have lots of respect for the Red Wings organization) but that doesnt necessarily mean that every player would be better in that system. A lot of players dont flourish in D-first systems. Look at the list of Stars players under Hitchcock that didnt pan out; Arnott, Turgeon, Guerin, etc. Sometimes you have to be content with a guy being a great scorer as long as he isnt a liability.

Having said that, if Malkin can gain some maturity in the next couple years and stop taking dumb penalties b/c he gets pickpocketed, then the other NHL teams better watch out. But the kid is only 22. I think he needs time more than he needs an overhaul.

Gig Em and Go Stars!

quote:

---

3) you actually did say that Babcock would bench him if he didnt become the best. That is what started this conversation.

---

I obviously phrased my thoughts poorly because we're still stuck on this. The sentiment that I wished to convey was: It would be interesting to see Malkin play for a coach who stresses defense (and maybe Dan Bylsma is one of them, too soon to tell) because I think that if Malkin focused more on his defense and took fewer bad penalties he would be the best player in the world. On the other hand, I'm not sure how Malkin would react to that and I could see such a relationship ending in flames like Mike Keenan and pretty much everybody he has ever coached. Coaches who stress defense also tend to be headstrong and like to get their way. I think that such a coach would be likely to scratch a headstrong player for a game or two to send a message (but not during the playoffs). Better?

It's also probably not fair to for me to judge Malkin on his +/- from this season alone because the Penguins were not particularly good for a big chunk of the year.

I don't follow NHL suspensions too closely because the Red Wings get so few of them. It's entirely possible that the NHL would have rescinded the suspension during the regular season. My understanding of the rule is that it was put into place to prevent frustrated players (and coaches) from trying to send a message in the last five minutes of a game that has already been decided. I think that Malkin singled Zetterberg out and tried to send a message by instigating a fight, he did make a beeline for him after all. Therefore, I think that following the intent of the rule, he should have been suspended (although I'm not in any way an impartial observer here, I should stress that).

I really don't have any faith in the NHL's discipline system. Why make it an automatic suspension if they are going to review every one anyway? It would look better for the league to just review every instigator penalty, no matter when it occured, and hand out discipline as needed. Why even put yourself in that position?

Of course, this is the league that suspended Todd Bertuzzi 20 games for ending a guys career in an attack that was meant to injure and then gave Sean Avery a psuedo-suspension that lasted ~30 games for insulting a players girlfriend (and his ex-girlfriend to boot). I know that it isn't a perfect comparison (Avery was only officially suspended for 6 games) but there is no way that the NHL should have even been publicly involved in that mess in the first place. Embarrassing comments in the media should be handled at the team level, and I get the feeling that the Stars would have suspended Avery on their own. Why does the NHL always seem to make these things worse when they get involved?

I do enjoy talking hockey, and don't get enough of it around here (both Texas A&M and TexAgs). Please forgive me if I intentionally push the envelope when I say things to stir up a little debate, especially now that we have to sit through two hockey-less nights between games.

I see your point when you put it that way. I think we agree on this for the most part. Malkin needs to tighten up his game in the defensive 3rd especially in regard to his stupid penalties. That is the biggest flaw in his game, for sure. If a coach tried to work with him and he wasn't having any of it, then i could see a message being sent. I guess the way it was worded originally just threw me off.

I also agree that it is odd to automatically give out a suspension, but also review them all. Maybe they feel they are less the bad guy in that situation b/c the RULE says you get suspended and they just uphold it, or they can overturn it and try to spin it like they did this time around. I think the NHL has some things to learn from a league standpoint.

I also really enjoy hockey talk. Heck, if there was Stars hockey to talk about i would love to. But instead i am relegated to debating a player from a team that I dont really care about. I would have defended Zetterburg or Datsyuk in the same manner however, not that this subject would ever come up about them due to their 2-way play.

Hope i didnt hit on a nerve or anything. Just soaking in all the hockey discussion i can before Saturday when it will inevitably die down until pre-season.

Gig Em and Go Stars!

Not sure if any of you guys are laying anything down on the game, but looking for a little insight. First off let me start by giving you the current lines. I'm just going to list the Red Wings, because that is who I plan on taking. You can get them at +170 on the spread, -185 on the ML, and -125 on an NHL 3 way in which they would obviously have to win in regulation. Throughout the series I have played the NHL 3 Way when the Wings are at home and have obviously won. I am kind of second guessing myself today though. In five of the six games the home team has won by more than two and the Wings have won by more than 2 all three times which leads me to want to take the spread at -1.5 and get the better odds at +170. I also am starting to think too much though and think that this could go to overtime with it being a game 7, so I want to take the entire other side of the spectrum and secure my money and just shell a little extra to cover myself if the Wings win, but they get it in over time. I also might just stick with what has worked and take the NHL 3 Way and hope for a regulation Red Wings win. If anybody else on here has been gambling on the series or just have some insight on the game, let me know what you think. Please disregard if you are irritated by my degenerate gambling habit. GO Red Wings!

what do these numbers mean?

"+170 on the spread, -185 on the ML, and -125 on an NHL 3"

Tomball, +170 is the line on the game for the spread. When there is a plus sign in front of the number the line is in your favor in the sense that you don't have to put as much down for what the house will have to pay you. In hockey the spread is always + or - 1.5 and then Vegas sets the odds depending on what the betting public is doing. For this particular line I would have to lay down $100 to win $170 (you would get $270 back), but i would need the Red Wings to win by more than 1.5 goals.

The -185 ML or Money Line is you just betting on a particular team to win. For this bet I would have to risk $185 to win $100. The Red Wings are favored so that is why you are risking more than what the house has to pay out for your win.

The -125 NHL 3 Way is a bet that is usually found as a prop bet in most sports books. I can risk less ($125) to win $100, but the Red Wings MUST win in regulation or you lose the bet.

Great series. Pens got this far, now a 1 game series. Anything can happen. Random turnover a defensemen slips down, goalie ate some bad lunch and squatting becomes a problem. I think the Wings blew it by letting it go this far. Pressure is back on them.

Difference in this series is clearly age. Pens stars have zero in Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Fleury. Its a big difference when your stars are 28-32 versus 19-23. Pens have a great future which starts tonight.

LETS! GO! PENS!
LETS! GO! PENS!

Swat. Thanks! I appreciate the effort. I'll prolly have to read it about 10 times b4 it sinks in completely.

Meanwhile, having grown up in Penn Hills, I'll be pulling for the guins!

But i also agree with most of the analysis that gives the edge to the home teams.

Go wings! The only good thing about living in Michigan.

what a game!

One of the best Stanley Cup Finals games I've ever seen. Incredible. Congrats to the Pens!

Congrats to the Penguins, that was a great series. Fleury looked great, Osgood looked way off on that second goal.

Reminded me too much of game 7 of the 03-04 Cup Finals. Lightning with a 2 goal lead, Flames get 1 mid way through the 3rd and put the pressure on for the final 10. Even the late ricochet and putback chance at the end was like what Leopold had against Bhulin to try and tie the game at 2.

As a die hard Red Wings fan, congrats to the Penguins and their fans. They showed a tremendous resiliency in this series. I keep trying to find reasons to complain and say that the Penguins didn't deserve it or that the NHL screwed this one up, but honestly I can't. After his performance in games 6 and 7 where he did what needed to be done, I can't even complain about Malkin getting the Conn Smythe, it was the right decision.

There is a weird rightness in the way that this ended, with the Penguins clinging to a narrow lead in the last two games and both times blocking a ton of shots to protect their goalie. I love that winning the Stanley Cup is so closely tied to sacrifice.

The best I can come up with to console myself is that I think that the level of competitiveness in the NHL has gone way up since a low point in the mid-90's that lasted until a couple of years ago. During that span, I can only think of a couple of series where I felt like two of the best teams were duking it out for the title. (Since '95 the only ones that come to mind are Stars-Sabres (looking it up, I was very surprised that Buffalo was a seven seed, but Hasek was at his most dominant and I didn't feel like he leading a team to the Finals was as out of place as Giguere in '03 and the '99 series was much more exciting than the '03 series (triple parenthetical comments, whoop!)) and Avalanche-Devils, everything else was either a case of the two surviving teams having at it, or a blowout where one team was clearly better.)

This series felt like the two best teams in the NHL. I thought the Wings were about where they were last year, but the Penguins were much better.

Great series, although this one hurt more than any Detroit exit in the ~15 years that I've been a passionate fan.

As a Michigan alum, I've become used to the idea that hockey is the sport with the greatest variance (see Frozen Four, subsection Thomas Vanek goal or for that matter the loss to Air Force this season or the win against Denver in '02 for that matter). It is the least predictiable of the four major sports, with the bounce of a 3" rubber disk determining so much of the outcome. This is why I was nervous when Detroit didn't finish it in six. Congrats to the Pens, I can't say they didn't earn it.

In response to that, I say you did just enjoy the Cup for a year as Champs! It really was a wild fun series. That last 2 minutes were hell on my heart.

As some perspective as a Penguins fan, I can't believe we have a team let alone the Cup again.

In short this team has been shopped and dumped from Pittsburgh for the last 15 years AT LEAST.
Mario really did save the team from being moved several times as an owner/player. At first when he used his debt to become owner putting his name on the team, making it a commodity in Pittsburgh. Then in becoming a player owner allowing them to sellout the arena for awhile.
About 8 years ago, they were in the playoffs and the team was all but sold to move and the Pens won game 6 (which I was attending) when Mario pulled a puck floating really high in the air and tapped it in at the very end of regulation. Then we won in overtime game in game 7. This sent us to the conference finals and the sale was postponed since they were still playing. This allowed another week of negotiating and they ended up keeping them in Pittsburgh.
Then about 3 years ago, they were being sold to the Blackberry guy who was going to move them to Canada, but the Pens ownership group got a Slots casino to help build the Pens new and desperately needed arena. But the only got that offer because they stunk so bad that they got Sidney Crosby in the draft the year before.

So this is a special day for Pens fans still feeling like they are grappling just to keep their team. Frankly, I can see this exact same battle next year between the Wings and Pens.
I hope more hockey fans come see the game now. The NHL is building back quickly from the lockout year. Its a great game and I never played hockey. I was all football and basketball growing up. So support Versus and the secondary sprts groups that crry hockey when ESPN and the like is carrying non-sports BS.

This was an unbelievable game. Fluery's save with 1.2 seconds on the clock was a great way to win the Cup. Kudos to the Wings for a hell of a series. The Pens somehow just pulled this one out. I agree these are the best 2 teams in the league, and I am afraid (as a die hard Stars fan) that we may be looking at the best in the West and East for some time.

Luckily, citing the unpredictability of hockey noted above, that doesnt at all mean that other teams can't beat these teams in a 7 game series. Hopefully that is the case anyway. Plus, at some point these teams wont be able to keep all the character players that make the teams complete becasue they are locking up the superstars in long-term, high paying deals. But that is what you have to do.

Either way, this series was great for the NHL, and I couldn't have asked for a better game 7 as an objective observer. I went into the game not caring who won really, by when the Pens won I was glad they did. Good for Sid to get his Cup. And i thought Malkin deserved the Conn Smythe for sure.

Now let's just hope this whole Marc Crawford thing works out in Dallas and we return to being a contender.

Gig Em and Go Stars!