Whats the consensus on volleyball?

4,037 Views | 55 Replies | Last: 16 yr ago by whoop87
Pigeon88
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AG
We are approaching the end of another mediocre season. It has had a couple of nice moments, especially the Nebraska win. And it's nice that we got to spend a little time in the Top 25. But right now we're sitting at 7-6 in conference play and right in the middle of the pack, following a loss to a below average K-State team.

Byrne has been extremely patient with the volleyball coaches. But it seems like it is time to make a decision. Either we're satisfied to be a mid-level program, or it's time to make a coaching change. The current staff has had more than ample time to show what they can do and it's pretty clear that middle of the pack is basically it.

What say you Texags?
gobluwolverine
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Well, coming into the season, I was not excited.

After beating Nebraska I was all jazzed up!!!

And now, I'm not really all that excited anymore.


My emotions don't know what to think. I'm so confused. To me, if you take out the Nebraska win, this season was no better than any other season we've had in the past, and we would definitely be out of the tourny, especially now that teams like Baylor have shown their true quality.

On the other hand, the freshmen played very well, considering that they're freshmen, and look to develop well.

Sooo I really don't know what to think.

Maybe this is the year to make the change, since our 2 team leaders are leaving. Bring in a new coach, with the new leaders, have a fresh start?

[This message has been edited by gobluwolverine (edited 11/5/2009 11:09a).]
S.S.Aggie
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The middle of the pack is no longer acceptable. Programs like ISU and Baylor are now passing us. The #8 Cyclones took down #2 t.u. last night in 5.
TXAggie2011
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AG
The season isn't over yet. There's a lot of volleyball to be played.

For me, I'll say if we don't make the tournament, the Corbellis need to go. If we make it, give 'em another year.
TXAggie2011
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AG
Is it safe to say that after today, that season finale against Missouri might be one of the most important matches of Corbelli and Corbelli's coaching career?
AGBlastoff
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I see what you're saying, but I hope they don't have the same mindset. If our coaches' most important games of their careers are the ones they have to play to prove they deserve to keep their jobs, then I don't want them around.
hsvag
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AG
The Nebraska and Baylor-Waco wins should get us in the tournament, but execution and presumably coaching have again led to some key losses in games we probably should have won with this Senior-laden team. If you've watched this team, our setters are both average at best, a factor on why we're in the middle of the pack. Both graduate this year. Our 3 top players: Banse, Batis & Ammerman (and most of the offense) graduates. If the Corbelli(s) are returned, and it may be hard not to do that if we finally make the tournament, the setter issue and loss of Senior talent will be hard to overcome, especially with the increased difficulty of recruiting on our recent record versus the rest of the Big 12. Will hope for the best.
sharpdressedman
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The Corbelli's have been dead coaches walking since the end of the '07 season when BB couldn't/wouldn't close the deal with a new coach because of $$$$. No one has benefitted more then they from the financial blunderings of the AD.
TXAggie2011
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AG
quote:
The Corbelli's have been dead coaches walking since the end of the '07 season when BB couldn't/wouldn't close the deal with a new coach because of $$$$. No one has benefitted more then they from the financial blunderings of the AD.


What is this based on, sharpdressedman? Maybe I missed something...

I find it a bit strange they'd become dead coaches walking after a 21-10 season instead of the 12-16 season before or the 16-14 season before that.

It's also a bit strange when you consider how he's handled the head coaching positions of just about every other athletic program...


hsvag, I hope you're right that we get in and the Corbelli's turn this program back around. But, I fear those wins over Nebraska and Baylor aren't going to be big enough if we continue to flounder as this season nears an end.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 11/9/2009 3:37p).]
drumbeat10
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Assuming we don't completely melt down in the last stretch of the season (lose to missouri at home, lose to tech or colorado) I tend to think we still have a pretty good shot at making the NCAA's. We'll probably end up behind Baylor and OU in the final conference standings, but I still think our resume is good enough to make it in.

That said, look for next year's team to be nowhere close to the NCAA's. We lose starters in all of the key positions (setter, both OH's and the right side, and both of our primary passers-batis and banse). We only return Kelsey Black, who has game experience but not much playing Outside, where she will be asked to carry the team next year, and Tori Mellinger, along with middles Miller and Kastmo. We have no returning setters on the roster, so we will be relying on a true freshman or a transfer to fill that role.

From what I have seen of Ringel, I'm not sure she has the ability to be a contributor at this level on the outside. She could certainly be a capable backup hitter and DS, but with her as a starter I don't think we can even be in the top half of the league next year. The rest of the current freshman besides Miller, Kastmo, and Adams probably won't ever see much court time. If adams develops in the offseason as a reliable middle we may see kastmo moving to the right side since she is having trouble with lateral quickness closing the block, but then we lose having a good defensive player on the right side. If we bring in a DS for her in the back row, we give up the opportunity to have a strong back row attack on the right side, which we make use of quite a bit this year (banse attacking from back row right side).

This team is really frustrating to watch. I want them to do well so bad, but they keep letting the seemingly easy wins turn into dumb losses.
sharpdressedman
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quote:
I find it a bit strange they'd become dead coaches walking after a 21-10 season instead of the 12-16 season before or the 16-14 season before that.

It's also a bit strange when you consider how he's handled the head coaching positions of just about every other athletic program...


Reasonable observations. 21-10 in 2007 was very misleading, with largely no-names OOC and all 10 losses in conference. The record fooled no one, especially the NCAA tournament selection committee.

A highly reliable source claims BB made his decision to make a change after the '06 season, and spent '07 courting a top-notch coach. Unfortunately, BB couldn't/wouldn't pay the price for the right person, and the deal failed.

Bigger issues in football, basketball, and AD financial problems diverted his attention from VB. Hence, the absence of any action to replace the failed regime.
S.S.Aggie
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No worries. People are also calling for a new coach for our soccer program that was just selected for its 15th consecutive NCAA tournament appearance and reached the Elite 8 last year.
Harry Dunne
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quote:
People are also calling for a new coach for our soccer program that was just selected for its 15th consecutive NCAA tournament appearance and reached the Elite 8 last year.



RIDICULOUS.

It amazes me how Aggies have b.s.-ed each other into thinking that our desirability & resources are so great that we should be top-10 at every sport. It's a great place for sure, but there are a lot of great schools out there that are also trying really hard to be top-25 at every sport. Soccer has been by far our most successful sport over the last 15 years - I would be THRILLED if every other program would have as much success, even if we never won another national championship.
TXAggie2011
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AG
quote:
It amazes me how Aggies have b.s.-ed each other into thinking that our desirability & resources are so great that we should be top-10 at every sport.


I'm amazed at anyone at any school who has bee-essed themselves into thinking that.

No school has the desirability or resources to feel self-entitled to top ten programs across the board every year.

Aggies have it bad, though. Real bad.
Sleeping Giant
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S
Serious post: help me understand the volleyball landscape at A&M? Why can't recruit better players? Or are we recruiting well but coaching poorly?
MtnAg08
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AG
I'm pretty sure our senior class was the 4th ranked recruiting class when they came in.
Pigeon88
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AG
Lost to Iowa State. Looks like the tournament is not gonna happen. It's time for a change.
whoop87
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Mid level program? I don't call a program missing the NCAA playoffs a mid-level program. For a program like A&M that is FAILURE.

Same old problems for 4 consecutive years and FINALLY many of the posters here are starting to see what has been evident for quite some time. I only hope BB makes the changes that have been evident for such a long time.
_mpaul
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AG
quote:
Same old problems for 4 consecutive years

What exactly are those problems, Mr. Volleyball Expert?
drumbeat10
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Lack of mental toughness and lack of execution. Failure to identify opponents weaknesses and consistently attack them, failure to adapt to change in style of volleyball across the country.

When NCAA volleyball changed from side-out scoring to rally scoring in 2001 (notice any significance about this date and our program?) it dramatically changed the way the game is played. Over the last decade teams have been re-learning how to play this new style from the lowest levels on up. Now we have kids coming into college who were raised on rally scoring, but we still don't see our coaching staff embrace the newer style of play. If you look around at the most successful teams at any level, they seem to have a few common threads. The switch disproportionally increased the importance of power serving, power attacking in transition, and serve receive. You hear coaches talk about it after every single match, ie "Our team lost the serve and pass battle tonight, so we lost."

However, up until the middle of last year, A&M was still trying to play a precision offense. This requires exceptional serve receive, which we have never had. As other teams focus more and more on developing power serves, it becomes harder and harder to run an offense which uses three first-tempo attackers, which A&M ran up until injuries forced the insertion of Jenny Banse into the starting lineup last year (Before that she was on the bench and Kelsey Bryant, who had basically the same skill set as a Middle blocker but played on the right side was the starter). Incidentally Banse becoming a starter really improved the team both because she was a stronger serve receiver than Sarah Ammerman and because she gave a third option as a second-tempo attacker.

At this level of volleyball you will find that the majority of teams at NCAA level and above can sideout when they pass perfectly. That's why you see teams like Texas and Penn State (top teams in the country this year) losing points to teams like Texas State or Robert Morris. The difference in the teams is either you have a team that can pass serve with significantly greater efficiency than most other teams (Like Iowa State this year or The US Men's olympic team in 2008) or you have a team with Power Hitters who can score points even when the serve reception is passed poorly (Like Texas this year or the Women's Olympic Team in 2008).

The power style works well but it requires a very rare athlete like Destinee Hooker or Megan Hodge (PSU). The "scrappy" style requires great recruits and a lot of mental toughness and great coaching, which is why people around the country are talking about Iowa State's coach Christy Johnson.

Either way, we haven't been able to successfully emulate either one of the styles.
It looked early on in this year like we would be a good scrappy team with the addition of Tori Mellinger but for whatever reason our reception has really faded over the last month or so and we can no longer side out as well as we could with our smaller hitters. Another factor is likely getting into the thick of conference play and facing much better blocks than we saw in preseason.

Another issue I have with the team is they don't seem to serve with any toughness at all, and when you aren't serving tough you can't put much pressure on opposing teams. Most of the good teams around the country have one or two extremely powerful jump servers. We have taken our best jump server (Sarah Ammerman) and converted her to a standing float server. Florida's coach Mary Wise likes to have personnel with varied styles of serving, such as power jump servers, jump float servers, short standing float servers, deep standing float servers, etc... If you look at our team, you see basically everyone using either the short standing float or a high jump float. These don't put much pressure on opposing teams, and since our blocking is so poor this year that's asking quite a bit from our back row defense to constantly try and stop other teams that are in-system nearly 100% of the time.
drumbeat10
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Here's a great old article from Penn State's student newspaper where Russ Rose (who I think is one of the smartest coaches in volleyball) talks about the difference between Rally Scoring and Sideout Scoring. Its funny how he talks about not liking the style, but now his team has fully embraced the change and been incredibly successful.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/10/10-16-03tdc/10-16-03dsports-05.asp
gobluwolverine
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Edit: My clicker finger has the stutters.

[This message has been edited by gobluwolverine (edited 11/12/2009 8:49p).]
gobluwolverine
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quote:
Lack of mental toughness and lack of execution. Failure to identify opponents weaknesses and consistently attack them, failure to adapt to change in style of volleyball across the country.


I, as a non-volleyball person, have noticed this just by attending a whole lot of matches. Thanks for the rest of the info for more insight into why we play like this.

But yeah, just watching, you see it and think "why does t.u. seem to find an open spot in the court more than we do, why are these other programs more able to return out spikes, why do we get leads on teams and fall apart," and it's just bad. To me, it's complacency. You see it in lots of great coaches, but eventually their teams fall apart and they need to move on. Take Bobby Bowden or Lloyd Carr. Or Bob Knight.

At some point, the players might take it for granted, and the system is too ingrained in their minds. I fear that in a non-contact team sport like volleyball, this might set in sooner. If for no other reason, we need a new coach to come in and just light a fire under the players' butts, get them motivated again with something new.
JackBlack
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Given that most of drumbeat's observations are salient, please consider also that the Aggie middles are a target for every opposing coach. No hiding their inexperience. The opposition hits against one, sometimes one and a half blockers...we hit against two, sometimes three. Just hard to compete with top teams with that situation.
whoop87
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mpaul...

Although drumbeat said it much better and in much more detail than I was planning to, there has also been gross errors in recruiting. The Corbelli's have not recruited the caliber of athlete necessary to be a top level program. Our seniors have done a remarkable job, but you cannot compare them to the elite players in the conference that you see being recruited at Texas and Nebraska on an ongoing basis. Additionally, with the importance of the Libero position in today's game, it is simple negligence to NOT recruit the scholarship athlete for Libero instead of either trying to convince someone to walk on or move an OH to that position.

It been time for a change for a while now and time for BB to step up.
nakedcrayon
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Drumbeat10 has some excellent points and while Whoop87 hasnt gone in depth like drumbeat he/she has seen this coming for many years.

I would like to add various things to the drumbeat post that was very articuate and IMHO accurate.

1. The lack of national recruiting on a consistant basis since the rally scoring era began. During the mid late 1990's run of elite eight and sweet 16 appearances...our roster was filled with a California pipeline of recruits which were the basis of our program success. The rumor is that the Good Ole Boy network constantly asked why not recruit Texas kids and the pressure began to mount. We started doing that and its semi success (Laura Jones, Melissa Munsch) didnt work overall and the Califorina pipeline was lost. Teams like Penn State, Texas, USC, Nebraska etc have had a national basis for recruiting for years. The idea that you can get 90% of your HS recruits from the state of Texas and compete on a national level means you must get the best 1-2 each year from Texas...we are not even close in that respect. At most a HS recruit from outside of Texas every other year and a transfer or two.

#2 The movement towards a smaller quicker premade VB player who comes in during the Spring as an early entrant has failed when those players are asked constantly to make an immediate impact. As drumbeat said this team was formed with intentions of a precise offense to which they will use the Spring to assimalate to the program. Has NOT worked on consistant basis nor will it.

#3 Recruitment of positon one year too late... too me this is one of the bigger problems we have had. If you look at our starting lineup for this year we have our pin attackers all seniors. The #1 positive thing from this year is the emergence of Jenny Banse as a major threat from RS both front row and back row. The problem with that is she is a senior.

Look at next years lineup

S: unknown freshman or transfer
OH1: Kelsey Black
M1: Lindsay Miller
OH2: Chelsea Ringel or incoming freshman
RS: unknown i like drumbeat10 suggestion to move Kastmo to RS
M2: Catlin Adams

if that is our lineup and Kelsey Black with only real player with actual time hitting from the pins at a collegiate level in matches and an offense that has shown that our OH have to take over 50%-60% of the swings nightly and sometimes Ammerman has taken 70+ just herself. What do we look like next year?? I would say without a top 5 incoming setter in the nation we are looking at a conference record of 5-15 and we dont have that Top 5 setter coming in.

#4 Lack of effective attck ability from setter position when using a 5-1 system. Two words Ashley Engle... 5'9'' setters against 6'3''-6'5'' NCAA national champion high jumpers will not work and the fact that teams can make easy adjustments to our attack style when setter is on front row. With production declining out of middle position from a combination of factors...less attempts, hitting the wall as freshman, inability to set in hitters armswing, 70% of sets in crunchtime going to Battis and Ammerman is making middles less effective. And with no real second touch attack ability from a setter such as Engle or Northern Iowa setter (leftys) we are tooooooo predictable.

#5 lack of ball control on transitions which the ball should be on target including freeballs and hits from opponents that are not hard driven. The ball is placed in such a way that it limits options when setter is on front row to outside or inability to use middles when three options are available

#6 Inability to win critical points...when evenly matched teams meet critical points are of utmost importance...i define them as any point which the teams are in the 20's scorewise, points after time outs by either team and long rally with thrilling plays. You could tweek it to include other factors but we dont win 2/3 of those points which you need. Miller made like 4 blocks in a row of attacks back to the opponent last night in one series but we still ended up losing that point and i think the one right after as well. In each set last night the score at one time was tied 20-20 or 21-21 in all three sets yet we lose at home in three (Iowa State is good but at home especially we should win at least one)

#7 Serving drumbeat said it best Ammerman had a serve that worked now gone and we are a very predictable and poor serving team at this time

Our recuits from next year is a 6'1''ft setter, 6-0 outside from a 3A school and a 5-10 OH....only one of which made the recent prepvolleyball top 250 in the nation as a senior.

I would love to see a movement towards a nationwide recruiting system but I dont think that is possible at this time or for years to come.

[This message has been edited by nakedcrayon (edited 11/13/2009 8:59a).]

[This message has been edited by nakedcrayon (edited 11/13/2009 10:24a).]
drumbeat10
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I thought we had a 6'1" setter coming from colorado? I saw it listed somewhere online. Is there another setter that you are thinking of or is the one from colorado not actually 6'1"?

Who made the prep vb 250? I didn't see anyone listed on there for A&M but I probably just missed it.
nakedcrayon
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I thought i had seen Renyolds on the list but went back and was mistaken none in Top 250 and drumbeat had already changed the height of setter but you were too quick to read the post
SpicewoodAg
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AG
Very nice and analytical comments above. It disappoints the crap out of me living in the Austin area that we haven't been able to do in volleyball what we have done in soccer. Watching a program decline is painful.

Byrne likes to recruit Texas - nothing wrong with that. But the athletes need to be national caliber. It sounds like Texas high school volleyball isn't as rich a source of talent as we'd like it to be.
drumbeat10
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I just thought maybe you knew of a second scholarship setter. I can't imagine trying to field a team with only one setter, but I have a feeling the second one will be a walk-on if we haven't gotten someone at this point (Or a walk-on caliber player getting a scholarship)
drumbeat10
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In terms of the quality of Texas recruits, they are outstanding, second only to California in terms of number of top-notch kids (owing to the fact that our state is so big).

The problem is simply that we aren't getting the top tier of Texas kids to come to A&M. Banse and Batis as well as Ringel and Black are all good Texas kids, but we've missed out on a ton of others.

I don't know how many of these kids we even went after, but here's some of the Texas talent that has ended up out of state:

Oklahoma:
9 of 13 on their roster are from Texas, including 2008 Texas Gatorade Volleyball player of the year Brianne Barker.

Stanford has Jessica Walker from Houston (#10 National Recruit of 2007)

California has Elly Barret from Austin (#12 national recruit of 2008) and Shannon Hawari (#27 of 2007)

Washington has Becky Perry from Austin (#15 of 2005)

Nebraska has Kori Cooper from Amarillo (#12 of 2006), Megan Pendergast of League City(#42 of 2009), and Allison McNeal of Schulenburg (#4 of 2008)

I'm sure there are countless other great Texas players but those are some of the ones I'm familiar with. Baylor also has been doing some very good volleyball recruiting the past few years including last year's gatorade player of the year Tori Campbell.

Of course we can't realistically expect to compete with top programs like Stanford or Nebraska (or even Texas) right now, but I would hope we can get to that level. I also know that every year there are some kids that just want to get out of state for school and you'll never be able to keep all the top talent in state. I also know college station isn't the most desirable place for a recruit to end up, but the Soccer and Women's Basketball program don't seem to be having any trouble bringing in top tier recruits from anywhere in the country, so I don't think that is a valid excuse.
JackBlack
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of those Texas prep players mentioned above...Perry and Barker probably would have made a difference...and, Cooper was very much a Corbelli target...
TAMUmpower
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So who is this drumbeat guy, the knowledge from the posts ive read the past few years really is the definition of taking an Aggie Vball fan to the next level..
Look Out Below
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AG
Harry D. -- There is a team on campus (not equestrian) that actually has more running top 25 appearances in a row than soccer believe it or not (and all but one of them were in the top 20)...and we pay that head coach easily less than half what we pay Coach G. Soccer has racked up Big 12 titles -- no doubt about it -- but they aren't facing the national title threats that most of the other teams are in-conference on a yearly basis to get those titles. In soccer, we have excelled at having the best program in a mediocre conference.

Sharpdressedman -- I would challenge your assumption the Corbelli's have made out like bandits more than anyone due to the financial catastrophe. The person most responsible for the mess is making (at least) 4 times more than both Corbelli's combined.

[This message has been edited by Look Out Below (edited 11/14/2009 5:45p).]
gobluwolverine
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LOB, are you talking about women's swimming? Maybe it's an issue of supply and demand. If the market deemed that Bultman (if that's who you're talking about) should be paid twice as much as he is, he would be gone 10 minutes ago.
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