Right, but I believe that I've read that allowable amount to be either .03 or .04. Seems like possibly the judges didn't call it, so they didn't go to the pad?

Trust me on this...

At the Fall '08 TISCA meeting Frank Swigon told the coaches that the computer would ONLY be examined IF two humans DQ'd a swimmer.

They then proceeded in the Spring of '09 to begin disqualifying relay teams based SOLELY on the computer.

Last spring, in the prelims of the 5A girls 400 free relay, the SLC girl was CLEARLY still on the block for nearly a second. However, the computer registered an absurd -0.83. NEITHER human judge assigned to her lane disqualified her. However, the team was DQ'd based SOLELY on the computer malfunction.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe the NCAA rules state the if it's between -.01 and -.09 they go off of the pads and if its -.10 & further a judge has to see it.

I believe you may be right 5-Doubt....

There is also the possibility that it may have something to do with equipment, not all pools use the same systems and that may make difference.
Damn, where's an accredited US Swimming official when you need one??

I will chime in that, over the course of the Championship season, they are not the only team that DQ'ed the same relay two years in a row.

This is becoming a real problem...there's not much coaching left at the high school level, so you end up getting a bunch of club swimmers (who probably don't have much emphasis on "relays" or "teams" ) who get thrown together in February and hope for the best on three or four rounds of practicing starts.

[This message has been edited by AGBlastoff (edited 2/22/2011 12:05p).]

I'm not so sure this is quite the problem some think it is.

Every year in the NCAAs - some notable teams DQ. And these are very experienced swimmers, coached very well, with a lot of practice, and they still DQ.

In high school, they get far more relay practice than the typical USA-S swimmer gets swimming the short course season in normal USA-S meets (which don't have relays).

Some high school teams blow it at districts or even regionals. I think the problem is simply that these are 16-18 year old kids, jacked up because it is a team competition, and they will swim their guts out. At the state meet there are 2000 people watching and yelling - and since relays are worth twice the points, the pressure is even greater. So they make mistakes.

SLC's situation was a bit different because they had the team title locked up just by finishing. They should have been told to watch the swimmers hands touch the wall before they left the blocks.

Rules, referees, and the UIL are another matter.

+1 for 5-Doubt

Indeed, NCAA rules say -0.01 to -0.09 is automatic ETO.

I was the meet ref for the WAC Champs in San Antonio.

I know this post is very, very late. Not sure if you have seen some of the dialog (swimmingworld, dallas morning news, texasswimming.blogspot) - but the SLC relay was safe - as were other relays that day. The DQs were computer called - no official hand call. This happens in the -0.09 to 0 range. In the SLC case, there are 3 missing splits, there is an added split from the timing console operator, 8 extra reaction times from the lids and a split time that shows a HS swimmer going 20.17 in a 50 free and another going 40 seconds. The equipment failed and the head referee - FS - chose to ignore it. The girls could have started from the side of the pool as I think that is the only way to avoid a pad failure causing a DQ (pad fails but lid still goes off, then the elbow or head of swimmer in the water fires the pad). This also happened at the D2 and D3 meet. There needs to be backup

I assume you're one of the same people who is going ballistic on the SW comments?

Everything I've heard of is that the issue's being taken care of for future years, so I wouldn't stress about it too much.

[This message has been edited by AGBlastoff (edited 4/19/2011 10:05p).]

Swam4 Tu , explain your apparent hatred for Highland Park swimming, please.

Call me by my proper name instead of what some giggling six-year-old would write and I'd be happy to do so.

Swigon absolutely screwed SLC out of a state title two years ago. Murphy and TISCA have finally succeeded in lobbying the asshats at the UIL to vote on abandoning the federation handbook and re-implementing dual human confirmation and the use of video review.
But stilll -- that's a State title those girls deserved that they did not win.
It's inexcusable for one person to be able to hold that much power to totally negate reality at a state championship meet.

[This message has been edited by Swam4UT (edited 4/23/2011 4:26a).]

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Call me by my proper name instead of what some giggling six-year-old would write and I'd be happy to do so.

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Swam4UT, you are really good being "angry man." Maybe you need a margarita.

^
About two things I am passionate -- crushing injustices in the swimming world and not being directly disrespectful to an individual based on his educational background.

This is Texags...can't take things like that too seriously...It's all in jest.

"I would never hire someone from Texas. They get crappy educations and are pretentious."-that's disrespectful of your educational background

"UT? You mean tu?"-that's just gentle jabbing, and if you really want to get technical about it, that's really a way of respecting our school, by pointing out that we were the first institution of higher education in Texas, and that "THE University of Texas" is a bit of a misnomer. But then again, nobody wants to get technical about some light teasing.

:-) Copacetic? Now we can all be friends again?

Blastoff,
I'm not about to come on this board and change anyone's tradition... or take anything too seriously.
But if someone has a question to which he or she truly wants me to respond, then he or she should phrase that inquiry in a non-offensive manner.

[This message has been edited by Swam4UT (edited 4/24/2011 4:50p).]

SwamforUT, what does a p---ant have against Highland Park?

I coached at Highland Park for two years.

Most of the kids and parents were wonderful. A vocal minority of them, however, were determined to destroy my career and my livelihood when they figured out I was going to treat their princesses in the same manner as I was going to treat every other athlete on the team.

Had they been content to be honest in their reports to the administration of what I was doing, that would have been fine. But they weren't. They lied on many occasions and the weak-kneed administrators simply chose to fire me to keep their "Mad for Plaid" donations coming in.

Thus, I learned why I was the fourth coach in five years.

During the subsequent three years I've received e-mails and texts and had face-to-face discussions with swimmers who were upset that the quality of training they received dropped dramatically with my departure. As a result, I was not surprised that the boys didn't have a single swimmer at state this year and that the girls finished sixth.

This is effectively how the world of swimming has become these days. I've been in similar situations, but luckily was well-liked enough that it was decided that the "vocal minority" should leave instead.

One of the fundamental "problems" with high school swimming, and a bit of a dirty secret, is how some schools excuse their stars from high school practice so they can swim with their revered club coach.

Westlake HS in Austin, among others, only required their stars to swim Friday with the team. That way they could swim with the massively overrated Randy Reese at Longhorn Aquatics. Randy hated high school swimming in general - downgraded you at TXLA unless you made 9 practices a week with him. That requires you to skip at least 3-4 HS practices a week.

Of course another fact is that many HS coaches suck. Swam4UT is one of the good ones.

The funny thing is that most of the programs that are perennial powerhouses in Houston (Kingwood, the Woodlands, the Katy schools), the swimmers go to their HS practices.

But I don't think it's any secret that there's some swim coaches around (especially in North Dallas and Austin) that are real control freaks..

Anyone know what happened to Austin Elite Swimming? They have two websites with two sets of coaches although one of them appears to be a couple months out of date.

I learned recently that Nate O'Brien has taken a "real" job - working for an Austin software company. At least a few of their better swimmers are moving to Nitro, who open their new (2nd) pool in about two weeks.

At our kid's high school, the swim team is a class. Attendance is mandatory. Five days a week at 5 AM.

All of the club kids swim on the team. Some of them double up by going to club practice three to four days a week after school.

Our kid's club team hired a new coach about a year ago (from Nashville) and he thinks this is crazy. Told us that typically the club kids swim once a week in Tennessee.

Another good point bogus. There are states where "club swimmer" has a whole different definition than it does here.

I mean, when I was in school, there were highschoolers swimming 12 practices a week, which is absolutely absurd, plus 4-5 drylands sessions. I'd venture that most Olympians don't workout that much. And now more and more coaches seem to be getting imported where they aren't used to the kids swimming that much in HS, and they've stretched afternoon, non-school practices to 3+ hours a day.

Let me put it this way. If I had a kid, I wouldn't let them swim year-round in Texas. I'd draw the line at summer league, because that level of commitment is ridiculous. Even if you make the scholarship argument, it still won't come close to paying off.

And speaking of Nitro...I'd still rate it (all-encompasing) among the top-5 programs in the country. What other program has ever been able to say that within 5 years, they've won a TAGS (or equivalent) title AND owned two facilities (at least one is 50-meters, is the Bee Cave one 50 too?). With the way the economics of swimming works, that's absolutely mind-blowing. The guy is a genius though...he set up his pool with different-sized lanes to attend the needs of different swimmers. one-swimmer lap lanes are smaller, bigger lanes for his high school swimmers to use. It's genius.

What I want to know is, with the second location, has Mike institutionalized his enthusiasm enough that it will carry over when he's not on deck at one or the other. I hope to god it does, because this man may have single-handedly rewritten our sport (and I don't think that's an exaggeration).

AgBlastoff - as a parent of two swimmers through HS including one year of D1, I think drawing the line at summer league is far too simple-minded. My sons swam 5 HS practices a week in the morning before school, and 4 afternoons a week at club. Sometimes they had a Saturday workout. They didn't train as distance swimmers. HS swimming is a "class" and they were in the water at 7:30 a.m.

I do not consider this excessive, nor did they. My kids also maintained strong academics. It is all possible, and most of all requires a smart use of time. My kids also didn't reach a point where I ever thought they had overtrained. They improved every year through their senior year of high school.

I think some of Randy Reese's swimmers were overtrained. You saw that in some that never improved in college or peaked before their senior year of high school.

I think the judgement on club or not for a high school swimming needs to consider the athlete's goals and the quality of the high school coaching. Swimming through high school with club was a huge positive for my kids. Outstanding fitness, understanding commitment, teamwork, friendship, etc. were all big benefits for my kids.

As for Nitro - what most impresses me about them now is that they own their pools. They don't belong to a college or school district. They have a huge number of coaches and appear to dedicate coaches to a group of kids. They seem to understand that running a swim team requires business skills too. The new pool is almost complete and I hope to see it soon.

BTW - the new pool is indoors, 50 LCM.

[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 4/26/2011 11:57a).]

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it still won't come close to paying off.

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do explain...id LOVE to hear your definition of "paying off"

I'm a little confused at how it wont pay off. Sure swimming isn't a glamour sport and if you aren't Michael Phelps you aren't going to get paid afterwards. But the commitment needed to swim club to into a great college or just test yourself as a person is absolutely worth it. If a kid doesn't want to do it they don't have to but the physically and emotionally demanding sport that is swimming is one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed.

I was referring mostly to a financial payoff, which is what I've heard as many parents' response is to how they can justify their kids spending 36 hours a week in swim practice, because they're hoping for a scholarship.

Yes, there are other benefits, if we want to wax philosophically about it.

AgBlastoff - most kids that participate in high school and/or college sports do it because they like it and get some personal value out of it. Most of the parents have no expectation whatsoever of a payoff of some monetary kind.

Even the kids that aren't so special know they worked their asses off, swimming outdoors in January, measuring improvements in fractions of a second, etc.

As for 36 hours a week of training - I don't think my sons hit that amount of time too often unless you count driving time. If the time commitment of club swimming is too much, it is time for the kid and parent to step in and adjust the club swimming commitment. Most, but not all, club coaches understand this and will continue to work with a kid that only makes 2-3 workouts a week. Some, like Randy Reese (Yes I pick on him), are unyielding. Then it is time to switch teams.

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Yes, there are other benefits

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THOSE benefits are precisely what make it "worth it". overall, scholarship money is irrelevant compared to the countless number of intangible benefits of comitting to swimming as a sport/lifestyle choice.

Last year during high school season our kid was doing seven to nine practices per week.

After the season was over he told us that it could have been done better. He said that by the time he got to state he felt like he was running on fumes. Not because of too much yardage but too little.

He said that he should have talked more to the club coach about the high school practices. The high school coach is the definition of control freak.

The club coach was new at that time and tried to be diplomatic.

Bogus - it really helps if the HS coach talks to the club coach so they have some idea what training is going on in each practice. It also helps big time when tapering occurs.

Two years ago during my son's junior year he did 5,000 yards the middle of the full week before state. Neither coach seemed to remember that my son had another practice. I finally got wind of it and told my son to skip sets if necessary to reduce his volume. It was a bit too late though and his state swims were just OK.

Last spring, with a much better coordinated taper, he dropped 1 sec or more on 5 consecutive swims of 100 breaststroke from districts to state.

[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 4/26/2011 4:03p).]