quote:

---

No, I'm looking at it from the standpoint of a rational human being who hasn't seen ANY evidence that he's juicing and have seen a TON that he isn't.

---

Did you actually see it? Did you watch him take a pi s s test? Have you been with him every minute of every day? The fact of the matter is, you don't know. You believe what you believe based on your perception, and dubag believes what he believes based on his perception. Maybe his perception is skewed, maybe your's is. We'll never really know for sure.

91Lawyer has it right!

other than not have seen Lance actually take a doping squirt, i think i am pretty qualified to say that he does not juice/dope.

plus, with the Frenchies et al. trying to catch him he is hounded more in Europe than over here.

btw, lawyers perception is based on supportive facts. dub's is based on conjecture.

Hey buddy, I'm a guy on a message board, so I don't think I'm going to get myself into a "buttload of trouble depending on conjecture, speculation, innuendo, and supposition".

What's your argument for all the Olympians that get around doping tests? I'm speculating that Lance could have done the same as those athletes. What's your answer to that smart guy?

[This message has been edited by dubag (edited 8/22/2005 7:50a).]

quote:

---

i think i am pretty qualified to say that he does not juice/dope.

---

Why? Because you're a cyclist? Because of what you've read in the newspapers? Maybe you know him, which obviously qualifies you over everyone else. We all know those are extremely concrete facts.

People can get around drug tests. Are you telling me that because you've read that a football player passed a dope test, you automatically believe that he's never used? Don't be so naive.

As for supportive facts, he's been linked to Balco, something made famous for a steroid scandal. He's taken steroids before (albeit it for cancer), and could possibly have realized the benefits of the drug.

Face it, you're supportive facts are weak and so are mine. There are tons of people that believe he's used and tons of people that believe he didn't. However, no one actually knows but Lance himself, so don't try to get all high and mighty on this board and proclaim that you know more than your fellow posters.

maybe i am qualified because i am an Official with USA Cycling that has been around and about with USADA and have seen what happens during testing at international cycling events. that is to start.

that is a start, but do you think that people who work for the NFL know for sure whether or not a player is using?

Not trying to flame, but just trying to point out a valid argument for the other side.

Cyclists don't generally benefit from steroids - their sport largely depends on cardiovascular fitness, not pure power. That is why most doping violations in cycling are related to oxygen-enhancing drugs like EPO. Professional cycling has testing as rigorous as any professional sport in the world - perhaps equal or better to Olympic testing. What I find amazing is that Lance in spite of seven years of TDF racing under the microscope of anti-Lance Europeans - he has passed dozens and dozens of tests. Every TDF stage winner is tested. Random tests occur throughout the race. And he is tested "off season" too. His association with Dr. Michele Ferrari is more than a bit dark - but the interesting thing about pro cycling is how many other cyclists train with Ferrari's equally mysterious peer (name escapes me but is mentioned numerous times in the book "Lance Armstrong's War." If someone had a single minded focus to expose any other pro athlete of doping over a seven year period - they would have. I just don't believe Lance and his doctors are so good at doping they could have passed a riduculous amount of testing.

Lance's extraordinary physiology has been documented for years - going back to his triathlete days. His VO2 measurements etc. have always been off the charts. Combined with the re-making of his body after cancer, a maniacal focus on the TDF, and a fantastic team - I believe he is clean. Jan Ullrich always gained weight and slacked off in the offseason. Marco Pantani was a climber but couldn't time trial. Very, very few cyclists have the ability to climb well and time trial - which a TDF cyclist has to do to win. Lance has been lucky too - very few crashes.

>>What's your argument for all the Olympians that get around doping tests?<<

Can you name the ones that are getting around the doping tests and then explain how you know that?

quote:

---

>>What's your argument for all the Olympians that get around doping tests?<<

Can you name the ones that are getting around the doping tests and then explain how you know that?

---

Give it a rest. Can you name every substance that's ever been put in Lance's body and then explain how you know that?

Y'all should just agree to disagree.

What a coincidence.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2141710

You beat me to it.

Also several have stated the different training methods as being European vs American and correlating that to Competing and Winning, which is not true.

Europeans train to compete all season in all the races.

Lance trains only for one race, the tour de france.

That is why so many Europeans do not like lance because he ignores all the other races and makes them less significant.

Would be like Tiger only preparing for the Masters each year and not competing in any of the other tournaments. But winning it each year because that is what he trains for.

quote:

---

Also several have stated the different training methods as being European vs American and correlating that to Competing and Winning, which is not true.

Europeans train to compete all season in all the races.

Lance trains only for one race, the tour de france.

That is why so many Europeans do not like lance because he ignores all the other races and makes them less significant.

Would be like Tiger only preparing for the Masters each year and not competing in any of the other tournaments. But winning it each year because that is what he trains for.

---

After reading this, I believe that the name RocksforBrains is more than appropriate.

Sorry for being rude, but this came out of left field.

Hey dumbass, read the entire thread, not what was just posted today

From Page One, there is more if you need it to justify my post

quote:

---

I remember reading an aricle on the BBCSport website last year that described how Lance has brought a new training attitude to the Tour. They described it as a "European" vs "American" attitude of training not so much to "compete" but to "win".

---

Not everyone reads all 50 posts to see what justifies a person's post. If you could've simply prefaced your first statement by quoting the earlier post, there would have been no cause for confusion. Or are you too dense to realize that?

quote:

---

Also several have stated the different training methods as being European vs American and correlating that to Competing and Winning, which is not true.

---

This is what I was referring to in the RockForBrains comment. Quit being so sensitive. I said I was sorry for being rude in my initial post.

quote:

---

Not everyone reads all 50 posts to see what justifies a person's post. If you could've simply prefaced your first statement by quoting the earlier post, there would have been no cause for confusion. Or are you too dense to realize that?

---

So who is dense? You ask me to mention the earlier post, which I and your quote of me proves it.

quote:

---

Also several have stated the different training methods as being European vs American and correlating that to Competing and Winning, which is not true.

---

there is your reference to an earlier post dumbass

Don't be so sensitive yourself and use your reading skills.

It's a lost cause with this guy.

So, is it now pretty well accepted that Lance was juicing? Watching Outside the Lines last night on ESPN was pretty rough to Lance. The 1.5 hour out of the way drive that Lance's team guy took to dump their trash in a dumpster and what was in the trash was pretty devastating.

Cade - Nice Try at saving face

Gap

Also several other members have tested positive for doping. Hamilton used to be one of Lance's guys.

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also several have stated the different training methods as being European vs American and correlating that to Competing and Winning, which is not true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



there is your reference to an earlier post dumbass

---

To reference another post would be putting it in quotation marks. Saying that, "several have stated"... without saying, "in this thread", gives no indication of what you're referencing when the post you make is on page 2, and the post you reference is on page 1. Dumbass.

Try and rebut it all you want, but you're a wrong internet tough guy who's probably about 5'6" and makes up for his inferiority complex by calling people dumbass on the internet.

And if you knew anything about reading comprehension, you would realize that you're initial post without the above mentioned statements and the fact that you posted significantly after the post you reference, would be hard to follow. Or maybe you're just too dense to realize it.

[This message has been edited by CadeLBB (edited 8/24/2005 1:11p).]

Just because you have trouble connecting the dots don't go blaming the kids that can.

Also, many people know me on the boards, I played for A&M, so I am a pretty big guy that calls people a dumbass on the internet

quote:

---

Just because you have trouble connecting the dots don't go blaming the kids that can.

---

Funny you say that considering that no one responded to the substance of your post. Sorry, but as I stated earlier, it was out in left field.

Hey Special Ed since you hijacked this thread, no one is responding to anything.

More name calling. What a genius.

What a hypocrite

quote:

---

After reading this, I believe that the name RocksforBrains is more than appropriate.

---

Don't read the baseball board much, huh?

Cade, I'm 5'6" but I don't call people " dumbass". In your case,however,I am making an exception!

Didn't mean for that to apply to all who are 5'6" or below, just Rock For Brains. I'm not a big guy either, but I don't go around calling people names on an internet message board. My initial post was just a play on words.

I can't believe based on all the testing he has been through, that anyone wouldn't give Lance the benefit of the doubt.

What about the previous champions of the TDF? Did they cheat? If you say no, how do you know?

If you want to point to the new revelations regarding the 1999 urine samples as proof that Lance's critics have been right all along, I ask you how do you know that "evidence" is legit?

There was no test for EPO until recently

Rocks:

If by recently, you mean 2001, I agree. However, Lance has still won the TDF from 2001 to 2005 while being tested for EPO. That doen't mean he didn't use it in 1999, but I think it certainly shows he didn't need it to win.

Queries: If EPO was undetectible in 1999, how many other participants in the TDF in 1999 do you think might have used it? Are other participants in the 1999 TDF being re-evaluated?

Did LeMond use it when he won? How about Indurian?