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Lance Armstrong 30 / 30 VS. MJ's The Last Dance

5,170 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Aggie12B
Southlake
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AG
Just finished watching Lances story on ESPNs 30 for 30. 4 hours vs Jordan's 10.

I thought both shows were honest and excellent revealing not only supreme athletes but also ultra competitive talents who would go to any extreme to win. Both lost Friends and Family.

7 Tour de France wins vs. 6 NBA Championships.

Bottom line: one of them is still relevant today. One of them did not embarrass his country. One of them is a cheater.
Bunk Moreland
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I'm finding it a chore to get through because Lance is so insufferable.
Aust Ag
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AG
My wife and I listened to an audio book of his "It's Not About The Bike" back in '01. We used to see him occasionally at the same bars, restaurants, etc. Before everything went south for him. We both finished that thing , and were like "What an ass". We never liked him since , and weren't unhappy to see his demise.
Sex Panther
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AG
I was living in Austin when the Lance scandal broke. Before that, he was basically a national and city treasure but everyone turned on him immediately. Suddenly it was like this veil had been lifted and it was ok to criticize him whereas before it had been taboo. Basically every journalist in the city had articles and radio broadcasts saying the secret is out, and the fact is he's always been an ******* that everybody hates, but you couldn't say anything before.

I heard so many stories from people who had encountered him in daily activities or knew him. Nobody had one good thing to say about him. The guy is absolutely despised.

Need to watch the doc. I had forgotten about it.
Bunk Moreland
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correct. I was born & raised in Austin so I remember back when he was a local folk hero all the way through the worldwide fame & then downfall.

In general...loved by seemingly everyone. But every person I ever talked to over the years that dealt with him locally would **** all over him and how he treats others. And as you mentioned that was way before the scandal broke.
bobinator
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AG
I haven't started the Lance one yet but according to some friends it's an actual documentary as opposed to 'The Last Dance' which was mostly a Michael Jordan tribute video. Which is fine, it was entertaining, but it wasn't exactly a journalistic endeavor.
Teddy Perkins
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AG
I understand he rubs most people the wrong way, including my wife, and he is certainly ruthless, flawed, and egotistical. But damn, if I didn't find myself liking him more after watching this. Maybe it's his Texas roots but to me he came across as incredibly honest and self-aware. His competitiveness and do-anything-to-win even if it costs him friendships, relationships, and accomplishments, I found brave. And that's not even taking into account his drive to beat cancer and determination to claw his way back into competitive cycling. The 30 for 30 also made me realize that all of the cyclists were doping at that level. Considering that, Lance's accomplishments, while tarnished, are still incredibly impressive and I'll still consider him one of the greatest cyclists of all time.
oragator
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Lance made his own bed, his downfall was so severe in no small part because of all of the people, including his friends that he destroyed to live the lie. He was a self important bully Who got unmasked. So people were upset not just about the amazing Fairytale story actual being a story of cheating and deception, but that they supported such a terrible human being.
I do think he self aware about it now which is good, but I also think his nature is his nature.
Aust Ag
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AG
Yeah, just a "win at all cost" guy, including cancer. So I have to give him that.
fig96
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AG
But there's a big difference between "win at all costs" and "I'm gonna ruin this person's life because they accused me of cheating even though I was".

You can be an ass and not be a genuinely awful human being.

And I hate that I like his coffee shop.
Big Al 1992
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AG
The competitiveness was the only similarity. The big difference - As MJ said in tears - I didn't ask any one to do something that I didn't do myself. Lance was all about Lance. And still is.

You could go back and look at posts years ago and I was a big time follower. Those races were amazing in real time. I was in the camp that he couldn't cheat because if he did, he would be the greatest scum in sports and he couldn't do that to his fans, especially the cancer patients. No one could be that cold blooded. I also watched how much training and technology they put in to the race - no one would waste all that effort with the risk of getting caught cheating. Again - that's how ruthless he was.
There were folks on the Outdoor board back then who knew all along who he was and what he was doing. Some of us wanted the amazing story and we got burned.
Goat Man
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AG
I have not watched the documentary but I agree the vast majority of all cyclists from that time period were doping. At least any of them that were competitive.
TCTTS
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AG
My dad is a huge cyclist and worshipped the ground Armstrong walked on. At 68, he still rides 30 miles nearly every day at lunch. To the point where he has what he deems a "260" goal/chart every year; 260 being the number of workouts one would tally in a year if working out five days a week, 52 weeks a year. And he accomplished 260 fifteen years in a row until finally missing last year due to a knee surgery (along with a two other surgeries I detail below). But "Lance" was the inspiration all along. And whenever we were in Austin, my dad would always point out where "Lance" ate, where "Lance" lived, etc. And when "Lance" finally fell from grace, for my dad, it was like finding out Bush Jr. was actually a liberal or something. It didn't compute, and I remember him being in such denial.

I'm glad it didn't kill his love of the sport, though, because in 2013, my dad took the family on a trip to France that summer to follow a few legs of the Tour. We rented a house in the south of France - like something out of that Russel Crowe movie A Good Year - close enough to a couple legs of the Tour, which we went and watched. Then we made our way up to Paris for the final stage/day, and watched the riders cross the finish line at the Champs-Elysees. Easily the most amazing trip I've ever been on, and it was all ultimately because of "Lance"...






That said, last summer, my parents and a couple of their friends went back to France, this time so my dad and his buddy could actually ride a couple of the stages. But for some insane reason - likely having something to do with "Lance" - my dad picked one of the toughest stages, in the French Alps. Yet, at 67 years old, to his credit, just a couple weeks after the Tour had done the same course, he and his buddy actually made it all the way to the top, and completed the entire thing. It was on the way down, however, coming around a corner, that my dad's front tire hit a random groove in the road, he spun out of control, and had a horrible crash. Broke his hip, a few ribs, and punctured a lung. He had to have two major surgeries in a French hospital, but because he wasn't allowed to fly while his lung was healing, he had to spend the next three weeks in that same hospital, and then two weeks after that in a hotel. Mind you, he is a hard core Republican, and him being forced to spend that much time in a French, socialist hospital was... interesting to say the least. There was even a period of about three days post hip surgery where he literally went crazy. I can't remember the exact name of the condition, but it's a real thing some patients go through after surgery, when they don't have windows in their room, can't tell night from day, etc, and they experience extremely vivid hallucinations. But he was convinced one of his attendants was a terrorist who had a fake leg that could be removed and used as a gun. And my dad would text us at all hours of the night, warning us of the imminent terrorist attack on the hospital that he was somehow going to thwart. It was kind of scary, but also legit hilarious.

So I have "Lance" to thank for that as well.

Anyway, I have all four episodes of the doc recorded, and plan on watching in the next week or so. Looking forward to it, if only to see how he rationalizes everything all these years later.
Sex Panther
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AG
Lmao wow...

That's one of the most... unique? stories I've ever heard on here
fig96
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AG
Seconded
TCTTS
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AG
Really, thats not even the half of it. It was so crazy, and I'm seriously going to turn their trip into a movie someday...

My dad had knee surgery - an old football injury that finally got the best of him - that January, just so he could be ready to ride for the trip in August. So he basically had knee surgery only to have a huge wreck that required hip and lung surgery. But at 67 years old, he at least completed one of the toughest stages of the Tour, and I think it was all still worth it in his mind.

But my mom and my aunt were on a river cruise somewhere near Amsterdam when it happened. They were going to meet my dad, his buddy, and his buddy's wife in Paris, but then my mom got the call that he was in the hospital two days into the cruise and she and my aunt had to planes, trains, and automobiles it hundreds of miles, spur of the moment, without speaking a lick of any of the languages. She and my aunt finally made it, though, but when they got there, my dad had already gone crazy. She would send us videos, and he was 100% coherent, and could carry on a conversation, no problem, but was simply convinced that A) his attendant was a terrorist with a removable leg that turned into a gun, and B) that ALL of my dad's extended family and friends had flown out to surprise him and be with him post surgery. But he was SO PISSED because he thought everyone was hiding in the cafeteria for the surprise and wouldn't come up to see him. So, in addition to all the terrorist texts, I would get texts at like 4 AM asking, "Teddy, where are you?" And when I'd explain to him that I was still in America, he would literally just type back, "F/ck you!" It was soooo bizarre, but again, also hilarious. Then he finally snapped out of it, and was back to normal like nothing happened.

Anyway, I feel like there's a movie there, where a hard core Republican gets stuck for weeks in a French, socialist hospital and literally goes crazy, after accomplishing a lifetime cycling goal in this idyllic setting... all because of his obsession with Lance f/cking Armstrong back in the day. There's also this side story where my aunt had to catch her plane home in Paris, got all the way there, in line at the airport, when she realized that her and my mom had mixed up their passports. So my aunt, who had literally never left the states before, was stuck in Paris alone for two days while her passport was mailed, and that was a whole adventure in and of itself, having no idea how to navigate the city and everything that went with that.

There would be so much to draw from.
Sex Panther
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AG
Quote:

I would get texts at like 4 AM asking, "Teddy, where are you?" And when I'd explain to him that I was still in America, he would literally just type back, "F/ck you!"

I'm ****ing dying...


My dad had surgery today and will be in the hospital overnight... Is it wrong to kind of hope he gets temporary hospital insanity and sends me texts like this?
Definitely Not A Cop
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If you guys haven't seen Tour De Pharmacy on HBO, I highly recommend checking it out, just for his appearance in it alone. It's an Andy Samberg mockumentary making fun of doping in cycling.
Bunk Moreland
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and watch 7 Days in Hell right after.
expresswrittenconsent
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Teddy Perkins said:

I understand he rubs most people the wrong way, including my wife, and he is certainly ruthless, flawed, and egotistical. But damn, if I didn't find myself liking him more after watching this. Maybe it's his Texas roots but to me he came across as incredibly honest and self-aware. His competitiveness and do-anything-to-win even if it costs him friendships, relationships, and accomplishments, I found brave. And that's not even taking into account his drive to beat cancer and determination to claw his way back into competitive cycling. The 30 for 30 also made me realize that all of the cyclists were doping at that level. Considering that, Lance's accomplishments, while tarnished, are still incredibly impressive and I'll still consider him one of the greatest cyclists of all time.

Thats a pretty big whitewashing by you.
A desire to win is certainly admirable. A desire to cheat and then do everything in your considerable power to destroy the lives of anyone who dares question you is not. He makes a compelling movie villain because he was eager to destroy lives to protect his own lie. Those may (or may not) echo your own personal values, but they aren't "Texan" values.
Teddy Perkins
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AG
Maybe I just don't know enough about how he went on the offensive to try and set a precedent that he would come guns blazing if you called him out. He did call that one woman a ***** - clearly, not ok. The point of my post is that after realizing ALL of the cyclists were doping his accomplishments still carry weight. Couple that with his self-awareness and honesty after getting busted, my own personal opinion is that he came off well in this. He put a lot of good out in the world with his foundation and taking time to give hope to kids fighting to beat cancer. Does that make trying to ruin someone else's life ok, not at all. But the show didn't really go into those actions and may have whitewashed his life a bit. I'm definitely not saying his values are Texan values, just that maybe I was wearing rose-colored glasses because he is a Texan.
expresswrittenconsent
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Yeah completely agree that everyone was doping so i don't think he is a less worthy TdF winner.
Your final words
Quote:

just that maybe I was wearing rose-colored glasses because he is a Texan.

do a pretty good job of summarizing why myself and so many other Texans (and especially so many ppl in Austin/Dallas) first became a fan (local/Texas boy does good in some small foreign sport) but also why the pushback and anger was so strong.



One other note, Armstrong winning the TdF was the ultimate in what I call "mother-in-law sports moments". To me a "m-i-l moment" is when someone who has zero interest in a sport will talk smack to a true fan of the sport. Most here are big fans of aggie football. If your mom in law or some "that guy" coworker who doesn't care about football drops by the Monday after a loss to ask you how the aggies did" they are being a mother in law. Lance gave millions of us who gave no craps about bike races a chance (for 7 straight years) to swing by the office desk of the entire nation of France and casually ask "hey are you guys still doing that bike thingy? You know, the one that was like 7 or 8 days each summer?"
Definitely Not A Cop
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AG
TBH, I don't really understand why blood doping is illegal. It's completely safe if it's being done by a doctor right? I just don't understand how it's different than using lighter alloys in a bike frame, especially when everyone at the level you are competing at is doing it with you.

I'm the same way with HGH in baseball. I get the original intent, which was that steroids can cause heart problems and so we need to protect the athletes, especially at the lower levels, from damaging their health in order to increase their competitive advantage. But HGH doesn't cause any of that either.

Sorry for the derail, it just always confuses me.
Phat32
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AG
Lance can be both an incredible athlete and a total ******** at the same time. I think his accomplishments still stand because everyone was doping. I ride 150-200miles per week with some fast people, and if we all doped, our rank in the peloton would be the same.

He's also been a piece of ****, but he seems to be self aware enough to see how the fall from grace may have been God's way to say , "hey buddy, you ****ed up."
TCTTS
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Sex Panther said:

Quote:

I would get texts at like 4 AM asking, "Teddy, where are you?" And when I'd explain to him that I was still in America, he would literally just type back, "F/ck you!"

I'm ****ing dying...


My dad had surgery today and will be in the hospital overnight... Is it wrong to kind of hope he gets temporary hospital insanity and sends me texts like this?

Hope all went well.

(And if your dad starts freaking out about one-legged terrorists tonight, please let us know.)
Sex Panther
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AG
Thanks, reports from mom are that it (knee surgery) went well and he's recovering nicely


I'll send him a text in a bit that just says "You have been compromised" and see what happens
TCTTS
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AG
Great to hear, and please do.
oragator
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Overall I thought it was good. Not a lot of new info in it for those that have followed this story. And the person asking the questions felt like was constantly trying to bring it back to EPOs and make him say all the things he did wrong as some sort of penance, which felt forced. Overall he handled it well, but he has also shown over the years he is more than capable of conforming his outward attitude to whatever will help him most.
I am glad they spent a decent amount of time on livestrong, for all of his gaping faults, that was a bright spot for a lot of people, and still is.

And by the way, when Lance saw the film he apparently wasn't happy, and hasn't talked to the director in months. So in some ways he hasn't changed.
expresswrittenconsent
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I tend to agree w/you on doping.
But thinking back to the 80s there was a real strong marketing campaign on how steroids were un-American (we sent "pure" amateurs to the Olys, but those dirty commie east Germans and Sovs were all doped up professionals on all the best drugs) and how steroids gave Lyle Alzado brain cancer. I remember doing a middle school science project on steroids and we had a 6th grade teacher who knew a coach at the local major university and so we wrote up surveys for the athletes to fill out. My questions were as stupid as you would imagine but this was Nancy's just say no america and all drugs were "dope" and all dope was equally scary and bad and so steroids seemed equally likely to be "peer pressured" onto you as a joint and a beer at a party.
AggieOO
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fig96 said:

But there's a big difference between "win at all costs" and "I'm gonna ruin this person's life because they accused me of cheating even though I was".

You can be an ass and not be a genuinely awful human being.

And I hate that I like his coffee shop.
The bolded part is why i can't stand him.

I do not blame him at all for cheating in that era. Almost everyone was. If you didn't, you stood little to no chance in the sport. I thought they did a decent job of highlighting that aspect, using other riders.

That said, he literally ruined people's lives b/c he lied and lied and lied. F him.
expresswrittenconsent
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Sex Panther said:

Thanks, reports from mom are that it (knee surgery) went well and he's recovering nicely


I'll send him a text in a bit that just says "You have been compromised" and see what happens

Send him a text that says "hey mom, what time is the surprise party?"
dave99ag
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I enjoyed the documentary. There weren't too many things that haven't been discussed before. It was nice to see faces I hadn't seen in many years whom I met while I was in the industry. I was surprised they even got some of the Euro riders to interview even if briefly.

The one part I'm glad they touched on a bit is the systemic failure of the UCI and basically ****ting on certain riders of that era while others got a pass. Lance touched on it at the end. The small part about Jan was really good and hope he does get his life back in order. Both he and Lance were doped to the gills, but damn that was some great racing.
phatbc
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TCTTS, before you said you might make it into a movie, as I was reading it I was totally envisioning a movie, like an off beat British comedy.
TCTTS
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Totally. Like an off beat British comedy or one of those indie arthouse comedies with an older cast. It basically writes itself, and I could outline the first couple of acts no problem. Right now, I just have no idea what the end of the movie or the "theme" would be, though I'm sure it would come to me.
schmendeler
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Sex Panther said:

Thanks, reports from mom are that it (knee surgery) went well and he's recovering nicely


I'll send him a text in a bit that just says "You have been compromised" and see what happens
"Is it safe?"
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