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Man of Steel

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YouBet
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I obviously know there is an original thread that I've even commented on (I assume), but I'm bored and the Search function is useless. I'm watching this right now and this movie is badass. Every time I watch it grows on me. It's essentially a combination of Reeves 1 and Reeves 2. The latter of which is unwatchable now and complete trash.

I'm still not a huge fan of the finale of this film but it works and is actually fairly epic in how it was done. And considering their god powers I can be ok with how they did it.

The music in this film is fantastic and the casting is great. One surprising thing: Henry Cavill is 6'1 and 193 when he filmed this. I assumed he was 6'3 or 6'4 and about 225. It's amazing how much smaller (relatively) actors are in real life vs what you think they are in film.

Also, the Fallout-esque sequence that Russell leads him through on the ship explaining their history is so badass. This movie deserves more accolades.
Yoda
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YouBet said:

It's essentially a combination of Reeves 1 and Reeves 2. The latter of which is unwatchable now and complete trash.

Would you care to step outside?


Brian Earl Spilner
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I've never seen garbage eat garbage before.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Also, agree with you OP. One of the most underrated movies of the 2010's.
gus1390
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agree
Lathspell
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I guess the teasers got me more excited than the actual movie made me. I think it is a solid movie, but would be middle of the pack for me if I were to combine all MCU and DCEU movies together.

aTmAg
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Superman is too ridiculously strong. You always know he's going to grit his teeth hard enough to win the day. That makes it boring.
Aggies76
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aTmAg said:

Superman is too ridiculously strong. You always know he's going to grit his teeth hard enough to win the day. That makes it boring.
Never understood why people think that Supes is boring.

He has 4 different identities (Smallville Clark, Daily Planet Clark, Kal-el, Superman).

He's an alien who was raised as a human. He wants to live among us.

He has great power and has to decide how to use it.

He just does the right thing (corny I know, but important these days, I think).

Fat Bib Fortuna
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The first half of Man of Steel is the best of any DC movie outside of The Dark Knight. The tech and look of Krypton is visionary, and Russell Crowe as Jor- El is one of my favorite castings of all time.

Michael Shannon is an awesome Zod. He was bred to be what he is. He doesn't know any other way. I love his first fight with Superman in Smallville where he's overwhelmed by his super-senses and Superman goads him about how much it hurts.

On first blush, i didn't like Kevin Costner's interpretation of Jonathan Kent, specifically the suggestion that maybe Clark should have let the kids in the school bus all drown rather than risk showing his powers. But now having kids, I can really see his point. If there really was a person among us like Superman, the whole world would freak out. The government would try to capture him, some people would fear him, others would damn him for being an alien and having God-like powers, and others would worship him. Sad to say, it would be a nightmare for anyone like that. Jonathan Kent's sacrifice with the dog during the tornado was worth it to keep Clark's secret safe until he was ready to reveal it. Also,I got to interview Kevin Costner last month, and talk about that exact scene, which was pretty bad-ass on the bad-ass meter.

I didn't like the non-stop destruction at the end and Superman fighting the giant robot squid whatever in the Indian Ocean, but is really is an awesome film overall with a gorgeous soundtrack.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I agree with almost all of that, except I love the final fight. To me that's one of the most badass superhero fights in that it shows the real-world destruction it would cause.
MW03
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Pre-Release Thread:
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2294991/1

Review Thread:
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2316491/1

TCTTS
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The good:

- Henry Cavill as Clark Kent/Superman.
- Michael Shannon as General Zod.
- Russell Crowe as Jor-El.
- Kevin Costner and Diane Lane as Ma & Pa Kent.
- The updated Superman suit.
- The opening Krypton sequence.
- The Jor-El hologram introductory/expository sequence with Clark aboard the ice ship.
- The Jor-El hologram sequence aboard Zod's ship in Earth's orbit.
- The final battle between Superman and Zod (despite all the mass casualty controversy at the time).
- The overall production design.
- The overall story/vibe, in broad strokes.
- The incredible Hans Zimmer score, which, against all odds, somehow didn't make me miss Williams' classic theme at all.


The bad:

- I like her as a person/actress in general, but IMO, Amy Adams simply does not work as Lois Lane in this iteration. Story-wise, Louis being a badass, in-the-field reporter, tracking down rumors of some kind of superhuman, is cool on paper and even in execution, but once she finally meets Clark, she and Cavill have ZERO chemistry. It nearly kills the movie for me, how mis-paired they are. I simply don't buy these two as ever being in love. Adams is NINE years older than Cavill in real life, and I think it would have worked so much better with a relatively younger actress who shared more of a spark with Cavill.

- Pa Kent not letting Clark save him during the tornado. I'm sorry, but this is still such a dumb sequence. I get the thematic point/need for it, but it just doesn't work at all in execution. I remember people laughing out loud in the theater - myself included - as Costner waved Clark away and just let himself get sucked up into the twister.

- Zod being Earth's first introduction to an alien race. It's a great, even creepy/scary sequence in and of itself (Zod's voice on all the TVs), but, big picture, it bugs me that Superman doing some kind of public, heroic act isn't how Earth learns of his existence and that we're not alone. I wanted more of that vibe - the "fun and games" of Earth reacting to the existence of Superman, news clips excitedly talking about him, our government speaking publicly about him, the general curiosity about him, etc. And then comes Zod to ruin the party. But the fact that Zod showed himself first, and that Superman's actual introduction to the world is him surrendering to the military, just feels completely off to me.

- The dim, handheld cinematography. A Superman movie should be stark and vibrant in terms of its color palette; like something shot by J.J. Abrams or Tony Scott or even Michael Bay. It should be Americana come to life. And while I don't think any blockbuster of this scale should have gone with the handheld look, any other director would have likely handled it better, as Snyder does a terrible job with it. Half the time the camera looks like it's vibrating for some reason, as if the camera operator is a 90-year-old man. It just doesn't work, and so much of my actual watching of the movie is spent wishing every other shot was locked down on a damn tripod.


Overall:

There's a lot to like, and I still find it to be an enjoyable movie overall, but for me, some real bone-headed decisions keep it from being great. That said, I'm genuinely looking forward to a back-to-back rewatch of this and the director's cut of Batman v Superman (which I've never seen) in the lead-up to the Justice League Snyder cut next year.
TCTTS
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MuckRaker96 said:

The first half of Man of Steel is the best of any DC movie outside of The Dark Knight. The tech and look of Krypton is visionary, and Russell Crowe as Jor- El is one of my favorite castings of all time.

Michael Shannon is an awesome Zod. He was bred to be what he is. He doesn't know any other way. I love his first fight with Superman in Smallville where he's overwhelmed by his super-senses and Superman goads him about how much it hurts.

On first blush, i didn't like Kevin Costner's interpretation of Jonathan Kent, specifically the suggestion that maybe Clark should have let the kids in the school bus all drown rather than risk showing his powers. But now having kids, I can really see his point. If there really was a person among us like Superman, the whole world would freak out. The government would try to capture him, some people would fear him, others would damn him for being an alien and having God-like powers, and others would worship him. Sad to say, it would be a nightmare for anyone like that. Jonathan Kent's sacrifice with the dog during the tornado was worth it to keep Clark's secret safe until he was ready to reveal it. Also,I got to interview Kevin Costner last month, and talk about that exact scene, which was pretty bad-ass on the bad-ass meter.

I didn't like the non-stop destruction at the end and Superman fighting the giant robot squid whatever in the Indian Ocean, but is really is an awesome film overall with a gorgeous soundtrack.

Was typing my post above as you were typing this. Re: the Pa Kent of it all, I completely agree when it comes to his overall theme/message to Clark, and you make some good points. I just wish that him putting his money where his mouth is - the tornado sequence itself - was different or handled better or... something. I don't know what the exact answer is, but something about that exact sequence of events, and the way it was executed, really bugs me.
aTmAg
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Aggies76 said:

aTmAg said:

Superman is too ridiculously strong. You always know he's going to grit his teeth hard enough to win the day. That makes it boring.
Never understood why people think that Supes is boring.

He has 4 different identities (Smallville Clark, Daily Planet Clark, Kal-el, Superman).

He's an alien who was raised as a human. He wants to live among us.

He has great power and has to decide how to use it.

He just does the right thing (corny I know, but important these days, I think).
I guess it's true for all superhero movies that you know the good guy is going to win (even with infinity war.. you knew that wasn't it). It's hard to describe why I find it boring.

The best analogy I can think of is a cartoon I saw as a kid. I forget what it was called. But the protagonist and antagonist didn't actually fight each other, but had this crystal thing on their forehead that shot "fire" (or whatever) from it. One guys fire would push back against the other guy's fire and when one pushed the other guy down or whatever, he won. All that would happen is the protagonist would simply grit his teeth and clinch his fists harder and would always win. It was lame. I feel that is sorta what happens with superman all the time.

I do think that Man of Steel was better than other Superman movies, though. The origin story was good.

PatAg
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TCTTS said:



The bad:



- Pa Kent not letting Clark save him during the tornado. I'm sorry, but this is still such a dumb sequence. I get the thematic point/need for it, but it just doesn't work at all in execution. I remember people laughing out loud in the theater - myself included - as Costner waved Clark away and just let himself get sucked up into the twister.

- Zod being Earth's first introduction to an alien race. It's a great, even creepy/scary sequence in and of itself (Zod's voice on all the TVs), but, big picture, it bugs me that Superman doing some kind of public, heroic act isn't how Earth learns of his existence and that we're not alone. I wanted more of that vibe - the "fun and games" of Earth reacting to the existence of Superman, news clips excitedly talking about him, our government speaking publicly about him, the general curiosity about him, etc. And then comes Zod to ruin the party. But the fact that Zod showed himself first, and that Superman's actual introduction to the world is surrendering to the military, just feels completely off.

- The dim, handheld cinematography. A Superman movie should be stark and vibrant in terms of its color palette; like something shot by J.J. Abrams or Tony Scott or even Michael Bay. It should be Americana come to life. And while I don't think *any* blockbuster of this scale should have gone with the handheld look, any other director would have likely handled it better, as Snyder does a terrible job with it. Half the time the camera looks like it's vibrating for some reason, as if the camera operator was a 90-year-old man.


Overall:

There's a lot to like, and I still find it to be an enjoyable movie overall, but for me, some real bone-headed decisions keep it from being great. That said, I'm genuinely looking forward to a back-to-back rewatch of this and the director's cut of Batman v Superman (which I've never seen) in the lead-up to the Justice League Snyder cut next year.
Just cutting the part I wanted to comment on.

I haven't gone back to rewatch it, so maybe this was already in the story, but I think the tornado scene might have worked better if they had introduced that Jonathan Kent was dying of cancer earlier in the film. So then you would have Clark already struggling with not being able to fix that with his super powers. Then Pa Kent, as you say, sacrifices himself to help protect his son. (still might not work, but at least it would not have felt as pointless) Im sure this concept has already been done in many movies in a similar manner, so maybe it would feel cliche.

I agree 100% that the world should have already been reacting to Superman being revealed.
I'm pretty sure we talked about this in the movie thread, but the colors just felt so wrong for a Superman film. I think that change on its own would have helped a LOT.
TCTTS
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That actually would have been a great fix, re: Pa Kent having cancer. As-is, the tornado scene just comes out of no where, and is so laughably preventable. But yeah, having him already dying of cancer or something, but him choosing to die NOW, instead of three months from now, would have done wonders. Just anything to make that scene feel less random and forced. Good call.
YouBet
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TCTTS said:

The good:

- Henry Cavill as Clark Kent/Superman.
- Michael Shannon as General Zod.
- Russell Crowe as Jor-El.
- Kevin Costner and Diane Lane as Ma & Pa Kent.
- The updated Superman suit.
- The opening Krypton sequence.
- The Jor-El hologram introductory/expository sequence with Clark aboard the ice ship.
- The Jor-El hologram sequence aboard Zod's ship in Earth's orbit.
- The final battle between Superman and Zod (despite all the mass casualty controversy at the time).
- The overall production design.
- The overall story/vibe, in broad strokes.
- The incredible Hans Zimmer score, which, against all odds, somehow didn't make me miss Williams' classic theme at all.


The bad:

- I like her as a person/actress in general, but IMO, Amy Adams simply does not work as Lois Lane in this iteration. Story-wise, Louis being a badass, in-the-field reporter, tracking down rumors of some kind of superhuman, is cool on paper and even in execution, but once she finally meets Clark, she and Cavill have ZERO chemistry. It nearly kills the movie for me, how mis-paired they are. I simply don't buy these two as ever being in love. Adams is NINE years older than Cavill in real life, and I think it would have worked so much better with a relatively younger actress who shared more of a spark with Cavill.

- Pa Kent not letting Clark save him during the tornado. I'm sorry, but this is still such a dumb sequence. I get the thematic point/need for it, but it just doesn't work at all in execution. I remember people laughing out loud in the theater - myself included - as Costner waved Clark away and just let himself get sucked up into the twister.

- Zod being Earth's first introduction to an alien race. It's a great, even creepy/scary sequence in and of itself (Zod's voice on all the TVs), but, big picture, it bugs me that Superman doing some kind of public, heroic act isn't how Earth learns of his existence and that we're not alone. I wanted more of that vibe - the "fun and games" of Earth reacting to the existence of Superman, news clips excitedly talking about him, our government speaking publicly about him, the general curiosity about him, etc. And then comes Zod to ruin the party. But the fact that Zod showed himself first, and that Superman's actual introduction to the world is surrendering to the military, just feels completely off to me.

- The dim, handheld cinematography. A Superman movie should be stark and vibrant in terms of its color palette; like something shot by J.J. Abrams or Tony Scott or even Michael Bay. It should be Americana come to life. And while I don't think *any* blockbuster of this scale should have gone with the handheld look, any other director would have likely handled it better, as Snyder does a terrible job with it. Half the time the camera looks like it's vibrating for some reason, as if the camera operator is a 90-year-old man. It just doesn't work, and so much of my actual watching of the movie is spent wishing every other shot was locked down on a damn tripod.


Overall:

There's a lot to like, and I still find it to be an enjoyable movie overall, but for me, some real bone-headed decisions keep it from being great. That said, I'm genuinely looking forward to a back-to-back rewatch of this and the director's cut of Batman v Superman (which I've never seen) in the lead-up to the Justice League Snyder cut next year.
This was definitely bothersome. For a minute, I was actually wondering if my TV or the signal was jacked. Then I remembered...oh yeah, that's how movies were filmed for a while. Dumb!
Fat Bib Fortuna
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TCTTS said:


- I like her as a person/actress in general, but IMO, Amy Adams simply does not work as Lois Lane in this iteration. Story-wise, Louis being a badass,
Typo, or did TC just tip his hand on his next project? Superman meets and falls passionately in love with Louis Lane?
TCTTS
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The world is finally ready for... Supergayman.
expresswrittenconsent
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Lois or Luis, supes always came off asexual, and in a childlike way.
rhutton125
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Liked it in 2013. Didn't hold up near as well upon rewatch. I used to hate comic relief and then I realized this movie gave me what I wanted - a movie with nearly 0% comic relief - and boy is it dour. Like having incredible abilities would be no fun at all. I know that's a theme of the movie - the weight of the responsibility and whatnot - but you can still have fun and charm while you do it. This is like the first Iron Man but if he spent 70% of the film in that Afghan cave or something. And wasn't allowed to make jokes.

There's a good YouTube video out there on Zack Snyder's biggest problem - he makes great "moments" but his "scenes" often suck. The connective tissue to bring things together and move the plot along is often expository, <30-second scenes - let's just get to the next big thing already. (Makes for an amazing Man of Steel trailer though!)



I think that's why I don't like Zack's DC stuff, Man of Steel included. They're filled with epic moments that are hollow to me. Cool military guy has a dramatic death to kill kryptonian henchwoman, but then I realize... wait... I didn't know either of their names. Lois asks for a chopper to fly out to wherever Clark is fighting, Perry says no, Lois says please, and Perry says ".....get this woman a GD chopper" and I guess I'm supposed to feel something in that moment.
Aggies76
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aTmAg said:

Aggies76 said:

aTmAg said:

Superman is too ridiculously strong. You always know he's going to grit his teeth hard enough to win the day. That makes it boring.
Never understood why people think that Supes is boring.

He has 4 different identities (Smallville Clark, Daily Planet Clark, Kal-el, Superman).

He's an alien who was raised as a human. He wants to live among us.

He has great power and has to decide how to use it.

He just does the right thing (corny I know, but important these days, I think).
I guess it's true for all superhero movies that you know the good guy is going to win (even with infinity war.. you knew that wasn't it). It's hard to describe why I find it boring.

The best analogy I can think of is a cartoon I saw as a kid. I forget what it was called. But the protagonist and antagonist didn't actually fight each other, but had this crystal thing on their forehead that shot "fire" (or whatever) from it. One guys fire would push back against the other guy's fire and when one pushed the other guy down or whatever, he won. All that would happen is the protagonist would simply grit his teeth and clinch his fists harder and would always win. It was lame. I feel that is sorta what happens with superman all the time.

I do think that Man of Steel was better than other Superman movies, though. The origin story was good.


I understand where you're coming from. The most dramatic Superman stories seem to be the ones where he is rendered helpless (kryptonite), thus giving the bad guys a fighting chance. I just love Superman's character and find him to be compelling because of how he chooses to wield the power that he has.

aTmAg
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TCTTS said:

That actually would have been a great fix, re: Pa Kent having cancer. As-is, the tornado scene just comes out of no where, and is so laughably preventable. But yeah, having him already dying of cancer or something, but him choosing to die NOW, instead of three months from now, would have done wonders. Just anything to make that scene feel less random and forced. Good call.
To add onto this idea.. it would have been cool if Pa somehow saved somebody's life by doing so and that inspired Clark to become Superman rather than Zod.
Brian Earl Spilner
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That's pretty good.
Lathspell
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Despite many of the show's flaws, I actually really liked John Schneider's portrayal of Jonathan Kent in Smallville.
Belton Ag
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Setting aside Nolan's trilogy and Joker, I think this film featured the most compelling villain of any DC movie. Motives count in these movies, and Zod's are somewhat understandable and thoughtful.

Justice League, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad had cartoon villains whom I cared very little about.
AgfromHOU
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This movie gets better each time I watch it, I think. So much potential at the end of the movie. I would have liked to see it be more linear and more Superman revealing himself to the world. Let him save a few cats from trees so to speak. Casting is great, but maybe in this universe have Clark end up with Lana Lang or Wonder Woman since there's an age discrepancy with Lois and their romance not being believable. They should have let Cavill be Cavill more.

Compare that to BvS which gets worse each time I watch it.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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The best thing about Amy Adams' Lois Lane is that she's not Kate Bosworth's Lois Lane.

Second best thing is that she's in a scene with Gaeta and Helo from Battlestar Galactica.
_lefraud_
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Sounds like TCTTS wanted Megan Fox to play Lois Lane...jk jk.

I do agree Adams as Lois Lane was a miss.
aTmAg
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I think they need a do-over.

Imagine trying to raise Clark Kent how he is currently conceived. How would you punish him as a toddler? Put him in time out? He would shove the time out chair up their ass. Refrain from feeding him? Goodbye house. Spank him? They would both die.

I never saw Smallville or any of the other TV adaptations, but one idea that I think would be cool is for Clark Kent to not start out as strong. That he would be born average and would somehow slowly grow into his powers. I would like to see him at a middle school age learning that stuff. They need to come up with a good excuse on why he wouldn't become Bo Jackson x 1000. Maybe he get bullied as a middle schooler, lashes out and kills the guy accidentally. Then he keeps it secret from everybody and nobody suspects it's him because no scrawny ass middle school kid could do THAT (some feat of ridiculous strength). Now he has to keep his strength a secret because he'd get thrown in jail the moment somebody sees him do strong stuff. He even keeps it from his parents. He lives that way in secret throughout the rest of his childhood. Refrains from doing sports, is a sort of recluse, etc.

Then one day, when he is an older teenager, Clark watches his dad die in some way (and like I said before, maybe his dad saves somebody's life in the process). However, there is a new spin... Clark could have saved him, but failed due to his lack of action. He had so thoroughly trained himself to be meek and unnoticed that he watches his father die and does nothing. Of course, he'd be wrecked with guilt. He decides he will do what he can to save people like his father. He secretly goes out fighting crime. But his early attempts are laughably stupid. Like he can't even find crime in his small ass town. He goes to a "rough" bar, and the biker dudes there treat him like a teenager and tell him he's too young to be there and he's going to get hurt. So he decides that he needs to move to a big city.

To the chagrin of his mother, he heads to Metropolis once he graduates high school. When he gets there, he has no place to live, no job, or any of that, and has to get a job washing dishes or something like that. He applies to the police academy because he wants to fight crime. But he spent his whole childhood in seclusion and is therefore socially awkward. He doesn't ever fit in. He realizes that he's going to be made a meter maid or something trivial and purposefully throws his fitness test or final exam, or whatever the hell they do in police academy to drop out.

To make a long story short.. he slowly gains his bearings and is able to go where the crime is and save people. Maybe he is recognized by one of his police academy buddies (who see's him do an amazing feat), and that buddy works with him to tell him where the calls are. Somewhere along the way he figures out that if he focuses his eyes in a certain way he can burn stuff with lasers out of his eyeballs. That's when he realizes he isn't merely a freakishly strong human, but that he is from another world. (He confronts his mom and she tells him the truth). He then tries to figure out what other powers he has and figures out that he can sorta fly, but he can't control it. He has to teach himself. Stuff like that.

Maybe have twist in there somewhere where the kid that Clark killed as a middle schooler is the son of Lex Luthor. Somehow Lex puts two and two together and realizes that Clark Kent is Superman and realizes how his son was killed. He can't prove it, but he KNOWS. He secretly plots to find everything out about him that he can so that he can kill him and avenge his son.

Anyway... it's getting late.. Seems to me, you could make an real interesting story out of it.

Edit: somewhere in there, Clark signs an NDA.
TCTTS
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Ha, circa 2013, I'm trying to think who was popular enough at the time, would have had better chemistry with Cavill than Adams, and was in her mid-to-late 20s/early 30s...

Jamie Alexander?
Jessica Biel?
Emily Blunt?
Rose Byrne?
Natalie Dormer?
Rebecca Hall?
Anne Hathaway?
Evangeline Lily?
Rachel McAdams?
Natalie Portman?
Olivia Wilde?
Mary Elizabeth Winstead?

None of those names really stick out to me, but, given the circumstances, I would taken almost any of them over Adams (who, again, I generally like, just not for this).
Lathspell
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Would you have to wait 10 seasons to see him fly?
TCTTS
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So, doing some quick digging and it looks like Zoe Saldana, of all people, was Snyder's second choice for Lois. Pretty interesting what-if, and I could actually see it...
aTmAg
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DallasTeleAg said:

Would you have to wait 10 seasons to see him fly?
I dunno... I think 5 seasons total is perfect length for a series. Much longer than that gets drawn out. You want people begging for more Breaking Bad style. Maybe the 1st season is his child hood, 2nd season his first year of Metropolis where he is just starting out. 3rd season he figures out eyeball lasers and season finale he first flies. Season 4 he has his breakout as Superman and does superman stuff. And season 5 it's his battle against Lex Luthor.

I'm literally pulling this stuff out of my ass on the spot.
PatAg
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DallasTeleAg said:

Despite many of the show's flaws, I actually really liked John Schneider's portrayal of Jonathan Kent in Smallville.

That show could have just brought the Kent's, Clark, Lex, and Lana (as Louis) over and made a movie

THen bring the guy that plays the Flash over for a movie. You already nailed those castings.
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