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Thoughts on changing the race of well-known characters- The Batman related.

3,249 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by The Debt
Batzarro
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1:18a, 5/28/21
AG
I have a friend who complained to me the other day on the Matt Reeve's "The Batman" movie.

Essentially he says this:

1.1. Catwoman is not black- why cast Zoe Kravitz?!??! (who happens to be mixed white/black ancestry and looks like a catwoman).
1.2. Commissioner Gordon is not black- why cast Jeffrey Wright?!?! (a badass actor in Westworld btw who fits the bill as a detective character).

Whereas:

2.1. No problem from him when they cast Liam Neesom as Ra'as Al Ghul instead of Arab or otherwise Middle Eastern.
2.2. No problem from him when they cast Tom Hardy instead of a Latin American actor.

Lastly:

3.1. He's totally cool with a black Superman which contradicts his logic of 1 and 2 above... just don't get it.
3.2 However, I do get when people wanted a red-headed Little Mermaid for the first live action movie- the red hair is an iconic part of the character.

Anyway some people have real cognitive dissonance on this subject- including me.
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Rocagnante
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1:52a, 5/28/21
AG
Username checks out.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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6:25a, 5/28/21
AG
People just want to complain. How about when they cast Tilda Swindon as the Ancient One in Dr. Strange, specifically because they didn't want to be accused of having a stereotypical Asian side character, and then people complained that they were white washing?
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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6:53a, 5/28/21
Sounds like you're friends with an idiot.
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dcaggie04
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7:07a, 5/28/21
AG
Ra's was born in North Africa, but to Chinese nomads with some Eurasian ancestry.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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7:39a, 5/28/21
AG
With Super Heroes, I don't really mind who's behind the mask. But I think there is less drama for everyone if characters stay consistent. Like pretty much everyone loves both Peter Parker and Miles Morales. But if you had made a black Peter Parker, then you probably would have had a bunch of people upset.
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The Dirty Sock
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7:42a, 5/28/21
Tom Hanks as the Black Panther. Make it happen
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MookieBlaylock
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8:19a, 5/28/21
AG
Just forgetting about Halle Berry in a whole movie?

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Prophet00
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In reply to MookieBlaylock • 8:20a, 5/28/21
AG
Or Eartha Kitt.
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AtlAg05
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In reply to MookieBlaylock • 8:23a, 5/28/21
AG
MookieBlaylock said:
Just forgetting about Halle Berry in a whole movie?



I think most people would prefer to forget that movie.
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Bruce Almighty
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9:10a, 5/28/21
AG
If race is not important to the character, I don't care if it's changed. If it is, then it shouldn't be changed.

Batman, Iron Man, James Bond: race doesn't matter
Black Panther, Thor, Beauty and the Beast: race does matter.
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Batzarro
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In reply to dcaggie04 • 9:19a, 5/28/21
AG
DCAggie- You are correct--in a recent origin story. It wasn't clear in Batman the Animated Series. I still liked Liam Neesom in the role but it would have been cool to have an "unknown" foreign actor.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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9:48a, 5/28/21
A lot of this color blind casting really comes down to "does this make sense for the setting".

Black James Bond? I don't care, it is the 21st century. I'm probably not going to watch Without Remorse any time soon, but I'm not too bothered by casting Michael B Jordan as Clark. What really grinds my gears are all the other changes I've heard about that make it unrecognizable to the book it is ostensibly based upon.

There are a few exceptions. It's hard for me to imagine a black batman because the contrast of the dark cowl against his pale lower face is a pretty iconic image. Unless you go with a very light black man, it's going to look somewhat odd.

On the other hand, the randomized diversity in a medieval fantasy setting like The Witcher pulled me out of the show a bit the when I first watched it. It's a bit odd to see black and asian actors wandering around what is clearly a setting inspired by medieval Europe. Contrast that to LOTR: one of the reasons it worked was that the viewer felt that they were looking through a window at long lost civilizations. One doesn't see the sort of diversity we see in major (western) cities back then. Even the big imperial centers of the past would still be overwhelmingly dominated by natives of that region.

but what really bothers me are the people who claim to value diverse casting, but freak out if a friggin voice actor does not match the ethnicity of the character they're providing the voices for. I'm not saying its always the same people, but there does seem to be a fair amount of overlap between the two.
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Tanya 93
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9:50a, 5/28/21
Speaking of Black Superman reactions


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Claude!
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11:10a, 5/28/21
To me, the question is whether race is important or integral to to the character. Shang Chi probably shouldn't be Mexican, Black Panther probably shouldn't be played by Woody Allen, etc. Batman's character is about being rich, smart, and driven - he can be of any race and I probably wouldn't care.

I do think that Captain America (Steve Rogers) needs to be white, given the character's origins. Now, you can clearly explore issues of race through the lens of Captain America, whether it's Isaiah Bradley or Falcon or whatever, but the Army guy who stopped the Red Skull in WW2 was probably white.

Similarly, if you want to be true to Superman's overall character, he'd likely be white. I've been to Kansas, and there aren't just a ton of black or Hispanic farmers out there. Again, you can explore the character archetype in other situations - black Kal-El drops in on some kindly sharecroppers in Mississippi could be interesting in how it might contrast with the base character.
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Tanya 93
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In reply to Claude! • 11:43a, 5/28/21
Claude! said:
To me, the question is whether race is important or integral to to the character. Shang Chi probably shouldn't be Mexican, Black Panther probably shouldn't be played by Woody Allen, etc. Batman's character is about being rich, smart, and driven - he can be of any race and I probably wouldn't care.

I do think that Captain America (Steve Rogers) needs to be white, given the character's origins. Now, you can clearly explore issues of race through the lens of Captain America, whether it's Isaiah Bradley or Falcon or whatever, but the Army guy who stopped the Red Skull in WW2 was probably white.

Similarly, if you want to be true to Superman's overall character, he'd likely be white. I've been to Kansas, and there aren't just a ton of black or Hispanic farmers out there. Again, you can explore the character archetype in other situations - black Kal-El drops in on some kindly sharecroppers in Mississippi could be interesting in how it might contrast with the base character.
Would Superman have cinnamon rolls with his chili?
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The Debt
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11:44a, 5/28/21
Start here




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aTmAg
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12:18p, 5/28/21
AG
If it was about "hey this person is a good actor, let's cast him/her" it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption). The problem is when it's done to "make a statement" or "fight racism/sexism" (i.e. new Ghostbusters).

How about trying to make the statement: "I can write a good story" rather than force diversity BS down our throats?

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The Debt
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In reply to aTmAg • 1:10p, 5/28/21
aTmAg said:
If it was about "hey this person is a good actor, let's cast him/her" it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption). The problem is when it's done to "make a statement" or "fight racism/sexism" (i.e. new Ghostbusters).

How about trying to make the statement: "I can write a good story" rather than force diversity BS down our throats?

Woketards are having a hard time coming up with good original IP. I tried watching Melissa McCarthy's Thunder Force. Dont do it.

But at least she is trying to do original IP. that's a step in the right direction...
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walton91
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In reply to aTmAg • 1:47p, 5/28/21
aTmAg said:
If it was about "hey this person is a good actor, let's cast him/her" it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption). The problem is when it's done to "make a statement" or "fight racism/sexism" (i.e. new Ghostbusters).

How about trying to make the statement: "I can write a good story" rather than force diversity BS down our throats?

I think we found the friend the OP was talking to
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aTmAg
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In reply to walton91 • 2:18p, 5/28/21
AG
walton91 said:
aTmAg said:
If it was about "hey this person is a good actor, let's cast him/her" it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption). The problem is when it's done to "make a statement" or "fight racism/sexism" (i.e. new Ghostbusters).

How about trying to make the statement: "I can write a good story" rather than force diversity BS down our throats?

I think we found the friend the OP was talking to
If his friend agrees with me, then he's smart and should be listened to.
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mazag08
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In reply to Batzarro • 2:49p, 5/28/21
AG
Batzarro said:
I have a friend who complained to me the other day on the Matt Reeve's "The Batman" movie.

Essentially he says this:

1.1. Catwoman is not black- why cast Zoe Kravitz?!??! (who happens to be mixed white/black ancestry and looks like a catwoman).
1.2. Commissioner Gordon is not black- why cast Jeffrey Wright?!?! (a badass actor in Westworld btw who fits the bill as a detective character).

Whereas:

2.1. No problem from him when they cast Liam Neesom as Ra'as Al Ghul instead of Arab or otherwise Middle Eastern.
2.2. No problem from him when they cast Tom Hardy instead of a Latin American actor.

Lastly:

3.1. He's totally cool with a black Superman which contradicts his logic of 1 and 2 above... just don't get it.
3.2 However, I do get when people wanted a red-headed Little Mermaid for the first live action movie- the red hair is an iconic part of the character.

Anyway some people have real cognitive dissonance on this subject- including me.
Sounds to me like he doesn't have a problem with character race when the goal was talent seeking of the best actor / actress, but does when it's clearly diversity for the sake of diversity.

In other words, a perfectly logical stance to hold.
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Tanya 93
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2:52p, 5/28/21
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Tanya 93
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2:56p, 5/28/21
Also, if Commissioner Gordon is black, then Batgirl needs to at least be mixed if she is in the movie
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bluefire579
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In reply to Solo Tetherball Champ • 2:57p, 5/28/21
AG
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
On the other hand, the randomized diversity in a medieval fantasy setting like The Witcher pulled me out of the show a bit the when I first watched it. It's a bit odd to see black and asian actors wandering around what is clearly a setting inspired by medieval Europe. Contrast that to LOTR: one of the reasons it worked was that the viewer felt that they were looking through a window at long lost civilizations. One doesn't see the sort of diversity we see in major (western) cities back then. Even the big imperial centers of the past would still be overwhelmingly dominated by natives of that region.
Spain was ruled by Muslims for centuries. Poland (where the Witcher author is based, though in interviews he mentions pulling from mythologies of many different cultures) was invaded by the Mongols multiple times and had another group of Central Asian peoples called the Tartars settle there in the 1400s. Southeast Europe up through Hungary had multiple back and forths with the Ottomans which results in Muslim populations in the area to this day. Muslim artifacts have been found in Scandinavian countries dating back to the Viking times. And that's just a few examples off the top of my head.
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Bruce Almighty
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3:46p, 5/28/21
AG
Anyone else see the irony in this? Posting on the entertainment board making fun of other people posting on the entertainment board is pretty damn funny.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 3:57p, 5/28/21
AG
Bruce Almighty said:
Anyone else see the irony in this? Posting on the entertainment board making fun of other people posting on the entertainment board is pretty damn funny.
We aren't mocking people for merely posting on the entertainment board, but for being an obvious moron that calls others morons.
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The Debt
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4:09p, 5/28/21
Just watched July's video on the falcon taking captain america title as a demotion. He summarized the issue thusly.

Bigoted Hollywood is so eager to have a black Superman, a black batman, a black spiderman (miles morales) because they think so little of black characters that black characters can only have legitimacy in white characters. Dayum....
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YouBet
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 4:11p, 5/28/21
AG
Bruce Almighty said:
If race is not important to the character, I don't care if it's changed. If it is, then it shouldn't be changed.

Batman, Iron Man, James Bond: race doesn't matter
Black Panther, Thor, Beauty and the Beast: race does matter.
I agree with this. And it's a perfectly logical and reasonable take. I don't understand why we can't all agree to it. Rhetorically...I know why we can't, and it's aggravating nonetheless.

The show we are watching right now that is really whacked out on the race stuff is The Chosen. It's a crowd funded series about Jesus. Actually pretty well done and interesting. However, it's jarring to see massively diverse people like they are presenting it. You'll have black husband, a white wife, and a ME daughter....or an Asian looking mom, a black dad, and a white daughter.

They apparently did this on purpose to give it some present day context so people could relate to it. It's a total illogical mixed bag but then I know alot of people on here would argue the whole premise is illogical in the first place so this really doesn't matter.
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Sex Panther
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6:26p, 5/28/21
AG
I never like changing race just to be "woke" or for the sake of diversity, but I think it's a case-by-case basis on whether or not it should even be attempted. I think it matters more on whether the actor is a good fit for the role.

The best example I can think of is Idris Elba as James Bond. I would not be a fan of making James Bond black just to mix it up and due to societal pressures. However, I think Idris Elba would be absolutely perfect (at least a few years ago) as everything about him exudes the James Bond personality and charisma. Now if you cast someone like Finn from the new Star Wars... that would be a complete joke.


However with other characters it just kind of depends...

Commissioner Gordon - Big deal, we've already had like 8 interpretations. Jeffrey Wright is an incredible actor and a perfect fit for that role.

Peter Parker - Absolutely not. He is a white kid and it's too far established at this point. Plus that's why Miles Morales was created.

Catwoman - Who cares... I think Zoe Kravitz is a crappy actress which concerns me way more.

Tony Stark - I don't think that would matter at all. Tony Stark is as big as it gets now when it comes to pop culture and superheroes. But I don't think he's thought of necessarily as a white guy... rather I think he's just synonomous with Robert Downey Jr.

Bruce Wayne - Disagree with others on here. Bruce Wayne is white and there is absolutely no changing it. The reason being specifically because Bruce Wayne is from an old-money, founding family. The Waynes are basically the Rockefellers or Hearsts. You can't change his race and have him be the same character.
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The Debt
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6:44p, 5/28/21
I wrote a post saying a black batman doesnt work in a majority white country because blacks make up 13%. The idea that there would be enough rich black men to conceal his identity would be difficult, unless he was working with/for a (white) benefactor.

The issue isnt about the race of batman, per say, just the difficulty to pull it off. Imagine a white vigilante in...Cameroon. Surely there arent a ton of white people for police to suspect or question. The "secret identity" aspect would require its own suspension of disbelief.
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GiveEmHellBill
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In reply to aTmAg • 7:05p, 5/28/21
AG
aTmAg said:
If it was about "hey this person is a good actor, let's cast him/her" it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption). The problem is when it's done to "make a statement" or "fight racism/sexism" (i.e. new Ghostbusters).

How about trying to make the statement: "I can write a good story" rather than force diversity BS down our throats?

"Why do they call you 'Red'?"

"...............maybe it's because I'm Irish."
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FightinTexasAg15
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In reply to Prophet00 • 7:06p, 5/28/21
AG
Prophet00 said:
Or Eartha Kitt.


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Saxsoon
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In reply to The Debt • 7:24p, 5/28/21
AG
The Debt said:
I wrote a post saying a black batman doesnt work in a majority white country because blacks make up 13%. The idea that there would be enough rich black men to conceal his identity would be difficult, unless he was working with/for a (white) benefactor.

The issue isnt about the race of batman, per say, just the difficulty to pull it off. Imagine a white vigilante in...Cameroon. Surely there arent a ton of white people for police to suspect or question. The "secret identity" aspect would require its own suspension of disbelief.


Black Batman Beyond would actually work pretty well
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to bluefire579 • 4:10p, 5/29/21
bluefire579 said:
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
On the other hand, the randomized diversity in a medieval fantasy setting like The Witcher pulled me out of the show a bit the when I first watched it. It's a bit odd to see black and asian actors wandering around what is clearly a setting inspired by medieval Europe. Contrast that to LOTR: one of the reasons it worked was that the viewer felt that they were looking through a window at long lost civilizations. One doesn't see the sort of diversity we see in major (western) cities back then. Even the big imperial centers of the past would still be overwhelmingly dominated by natives of that region.
Spain was ruled by Muslims for centuries. Poland (where the Witcher author is based, though in interviews he mentions pulling from mythologies of many different cultures) was invaded by the Mongols multiple times and had another group of Central Asian peoples called the Tartars settle there in the 1400s. Southeast Europe up through Hungary had multiple back and forths with the Ottomans which results in Muslim populations in the area to this day. Muslim artifacts have been found in Scandinavian countries dating back to the Viking times. And that's just a few examples off the top of my head.
None of which disproves anything of what I said.

Are you trying to argue that a 12th century Scandinavian village, even a capital city, would look like a modern day New York City? That is the kind of diversity I'm arguing against. It didn't exist.
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