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*** MIDNIGHT MASS *** (Mike Flanagan) - Netflix

14,091 Views | 110 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Chipotlemonger
TexAggie5432
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Didn't like it as much as Hill House. But thoroughly enjoyed it. My only real complaint was that several of the monologues (especially the last one) felt pretty pretentious.

The music was great though. Still listening to them on Spotify.
AggieArchitect04
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Got through episode 6 today. This one was a real doozy as everything is building to a crescendo. Looking for to the final curtain in episode 7.

I don't know enough about vampire lore so haven't totally grasped the rationale behind them microdosing the congregation through communion.

Also regarding Riley and the end of episode 5 did he figure it out or did he die thinking he was "chosen by God?
astros4545
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Better than Bly Manor?
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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IMO, better than Bly Manor, but still nowhere close to The Haunting of Hill House.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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Personally I'd go Hill House, Bly Manor, Midnight Mass, but I still enjoyed all 3. MM grabbed me after episode 3 and I finished it in one day, but I pick BM over it just because I really loved the final episode.

Hill House is a tier above.
rynning
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I was not disappointed in the ending at all. It's fiction, after all, but he did a nice job of not leaving many (any?) loose ends. The Erin's final monologue was definitely an atheist justification as best as could be given…

Thought the acting was great, esp Kristin Lehman as Riley's mom, Samantha Sloyan as Bev, Hamish Linklater as Father Paul, and Robert Longstreet as Joe Collie.

Edited to add that the Wikipedia entry says there were just two survivors, but I think they left the door open for Erin to have survived as well, no?
Aggie87
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rynning said:

I was not disappointed in the ending at all. It's fiction, after all, but he did a nice job of not leaving many (any?) loose ends. The Erin's final monologue was definitely an atheist justification as best as could be given…

Thought the acting was great, esp Kristin Lehman as Riley's mom, Samantha Sloyan as Bev, Hamish Linklater as Father Paul, and Robert Longstreet as Joe Collie.

Edited to add that the Wikipedia entry says there were just two survivors, but I think they left the door open for Erin to have survived as well, no?

I think she died, but it's possible the vampire survived her slicing and dicing to make it to the mainland.
Jugstore Cowboy
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Quote:

Erin's final monologue was definitely an atheist justification as best as could be given…
I took it as a sort of run of the mill summary of New Age pseudo-buddhism to explain to her boyfriend that it was all just St. Elmo's Fire.


I think the writers did their best to fairly represent different perspectives, from the serious working class Catholic parents, to the devout Muslim new guy, to the disaffected "older kids" who sound like my crazy older siblings when they've reached peace after finally figuring it all out every few months.

The first 2 episodes were like a flashback to my memories of growing up in a devout, active Catholic family in a middle-class-ish, post-Vatican II era. Felt like the writers had parents from my parents' generation, or possibly knew my parents.

ALL the music was familiar, from "Were you there," to the emotionally-distant dad's Neil Diamond records. The father-son(s) relationship; the priest's homily about coming to mass every week not just on Easter; a lot of it was just very familiar and realistic to me. I've seen lots of movies and TV shows take a shot at depicting different aspects of Catholicism or Catholic families; this version is the closest I've ever seen to my memories of reality. Again - in the first 2 episodes.

I had no problem with the not-suspenseful linear plot, though I might have changed some of the pacing and a couple weak points. The surprising twist to me was it seemed at first like an interesting take on how a genuinely devout, down-to-earth local priest might interpret a REAL supernatural occurrence as a divine miracle. Then we find out it was all about getting another shot at the relationship. Not bad.

So....not an earth-shattering homerun, but I was engrossed early on and impressed by the production quality and most of the dialogue.
Jugstore Cowboy
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Sorry for the book report, I just never jump into these threads until I'm finished watching.
Mr President Elect
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Aggie87 said:

rynning said:

I was not disappointed in the ending at all. It's fiction, after all, but he did a nice job of not leaving many (any?) loose ends. The Erin's final monologue was definitely an atheist justification as best as could be given…

Thought the acting was great, esp Kristin Lehman as Riley's mom, Samantha Sloyan as Bev, Hamish Linklater as Father Paul, and Robert Longstreet as Joe Collie.

Edited to add that the Wikipedia entry says there were just two survivors, but I think they left the door open for Erin to have survived as well, no?

I think she died, but it's possible the vampire survived her slicing and dicing to make it to the mainland.
I think the girl saying she couldn't feel her legs at the end indicated that the vampire died.
Mr President Elect
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Harry Lime said:

Sorry for the book report, I just never jump into these threads until I'm finished watching.
Smart call... Some of these people give no F's about spoilers.
Proposition Joe
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Hill House was outstanding.

Bly Manor was solid.

Midnight Mass started decently but was a mess by the final two episodes. Completely derivative of Salem's Lot (which Flanagan is a big fan of) with a heavy dose of Mrs. Carmody from The Mist as the over-the-top cliche religious zealot.

And I can tolerate Kate Siegel... She's not a bad actress by any means, and her disjointed acting kind of fit her role in Hill House. But I think the most terrifying thing about this series was fear of when her next monologue would be. I'm also not an Annabeth Gish fan but that's due to her lead on some really bad final seasons of X-Files. Her acting just always very much screams to me "TV actress".

But I'll be honest, with Neil Diamond, Harry Chapin and Gordon Lightfoot on the soundtrack I was going to finish it out no matter what.
Agman
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One question:

Ali hadn't been taking communion, so why did he come back after drinking the poison?
Tibbers
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Hmm, did he not that one time he went? We never saw him go by himself, right?
bluefire579
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Seems his next project is already in the works. Fall of the House of Usher

https://gizmodo.com/mike-flanagan-edgar-allen-poe-netflix-1847809996
Brian Earl Spilner
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Been hoping for another "Haunting" series. Good stuff.
Agman
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Tibbers said:

Hmm, did he not that one time he went? We never saw him go by himself, right?
I don't think so? His dad made a point to say they wouldn't let him take communion.
Tibbers
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Agman said:

Tibbers said:

Hmm, did he not that one time he went? We never saw him go by himself, right?
I don't think so? His dad made a point to say they wouldn't let him take communion.


I mean, he told him not to but I'm guessing…maybe Ali didn't tell him that he already had? Or maybe the poison was soaked in the blood of the vampire so it was like a twofer of a dark communion?
Agman
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Tibbers said:

Agman said:

Tibbers said:

Hmm, did he not that one time he went? We never saw him go by himself, right?
I don't think so? His dad made a point to say they wouldn't let him take communion.


I mean, he told him not to but I'm guessing…maybe Ali didn't tell him that he already had? Or maybe the poison was soaked in the blood of the vampire so it was like a twofer of a dark communion?
who knows...
AirplaneAg09
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Just wrapped this up last night and I'm in the same boat as a bunch of you guys. Feels like this was two separate miniseries in the same show. I really didn't feel like any of the characters other than Father Paul and Bev had any type of impact on the show.

Riley, Erin, the Sherriff, Leeza, etc. all just seemed like empty caricatures who filled in the background for what was basically Father Paul's series long monologue. Feel like I'll give Flanagan the benefit of the doubt in that if he wanted to make a show with serious religious commentary, positive or negative, it would have been much more flushed out from that angle. The whole thing just seemed a bit hollow to me but I finished mainly for the performance of Linklater in the first 4-5 episodes.

SouthTex99
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AggieArchitect04
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Agman said:

One question:

Ali hadn't been taking communion, so why did he come back after drinking the poison?
Same question but for Riley...

His dad specifically told him it wouldn't be right and pretty sure I remember him staying back in the pew for at least one scene.
Mr President Elect
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AggieArchitect04 said:

Agman said:

One question:

Ali hadn't been taking communion, so why did he come back after drinking the poison?
Same question but for Riley...

His dad specifically told him it wouldn't be right and pretty sure I remember him staying back in the pew for at least one scene.
I am not that well versed in Vampire lore, but using my knowledge from The Lost Boys it seemed like Riley became a full vampire because he got bit by one, where as the others became half vampires and then fully converted when they died. Not sure why the vampire kills some victims and then lets others convert, maybe the priest intervened to save Riley???
Proposition Joe
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AggieArchitect04 said:

Agman said:

One question:

Ali hadn't been taking communion, so why did he come back after drinking the poison?
Same question but for Riley...

His dad specifically told him it wouldn't be right and pretty sure I remember him staying back in the pew for at least one scene.

Riley didn't take communion, he was turned by the head vampire just like Father Paul
TCTTS
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AirplaneAg09 said:

Just wrapped this up last night and I'm in the same boat as a bunch of you guys. Feels like this was two separate miniseries in the same show. I really didn't feel like any of the characters other than Father Paul and Bev had any type of impact on the show.

Riley, Erin, the Sherriff, Leeza, etc. all just seemed like empty caricatures who filled in the background for what was basically Father Paul's series long monologue. Feel like I'll give Flanagan the benefit of the doubt in that if he wanted to make a show with serious religious commentary, positive or negative, it would have been much more flushed out from that angle. The whole thing just seemed a bit hollow to me but I finished mainly for the performance of Linklater in the first 4-5 episodes.

Man, I had the exact opposite reaction. I thought this was one of the most thematically sound and thematically interesting series I've ever seen. I loved it so, so much. Mostly *because* it wasn't about "the characters' impact on the show," it was about the show's impact on the characters. It put character before plot, in ways some of the best shows do. It was ALL about the various arcs of the townspeople, using rich religious commentary, all of which I found to be anything but hollow...

- Riley's sacrifice proves to himself and others that he was, in fact, good/pure of heart. Yes, he was an alcoholic, but one who doesn't give into temptation in the end. Instead of the bottle, he resists drinking blood, which I thought was such a brilliant metaphor, given the supernatural bent of the plot. He literally overcomes that demon. We think he's taking Erin out on the boat to drink her blood, but instead he's taking her out to ensure a chain reaction that could save at least a few people, who ultimately end up being his little brother and Leeza. His arc begins with addiction/carelessness, resulting in death. His arc ends with him overcoming addiction, resulting in lives saved. I loved, loved, loved this aspect, and thought it was so clever, and so well done.

- All Father Paul really wanted in life was Mildred, but the life he chose kept him from having her. In his twilight years, however, he makes a literal deal with the devil to get her back, ultimately realizes the error of his ways, but gets to be with Mildred in the end. And the two of them, along with Dr. Gunning, get to be a family, if only for a brief, fleeting, bittersweet moment. I thought that was beautiful.

- Riley's parents, along with a few other church/townsfolk, still manage to hold true to their faith in the end, despite the literal hell they go through. Their final act is singing a hymn in the face of certain death, an act that literally requires them to "see the light." They start out as naive believers, but end as believers who have been truly tested. Their triumph is that nothing - not even the devil himself (or demon or vampire or whatever you want to call it) - can shake their faith. Like their son, they never fell to temptation. (Conversely, it's Beverly Keane who tries to hide from the light, literally attempting to bury her head in the sand.)

- Similar to Riley's parents, Sheriff Hasan stays true to his faith, but for different reasons. Throughout the series, Hasan is rarely treated with the same respect he gives his neighbors. Yet, even the town drunk - responsible for paralyzing a young girl - is treated with respect and compassion by Hasan. It's the Muslim who continually shows true grace; the only one not trying to convert or force his beliefs on others (save for on his son, of course). He's a reserved, vigilant man of the law - a brown-skinned Brody from Jaws (which I thought was a nice twist) - who chooses to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do, not because of the promise of some eternal reward. Hasan is given every reason and opportunity to be like Bev and Father Paul - to use his religion to *stop* showing grace and fall into the same trap as them - yet he never does. And it's through that test that he and his son arrive at their final moments, no longer praying simply because that's what their wife/mother wanted. They're now doing it for themselves, for each other, and maybe even for their God as well. Either way, they're no longer going through the motions, they're doing it with the proper intent.

Yes, I think it's obvious Flanagan ultimately comes at this story through the eyes of an atheist. That said, I didn't find Midnight Mass to be anti religion or anti Christian at all. Rather, it's anti using religion to justify selfishness and atrocities. It's anti bad faith. It's an allegory about the horrible things people do in the name of religion, and how anyone can find just about any Bible verse (or excerpt from the Quran) to justify basically anything. Throughout the series, Bev, along with Father Paul, bend over backwards and use all kinds of pretzel logic to commit all kinds of atrocities. Yet, Sheriff Hasan, whose religion arguably *does* allow for and perhaps even encourages atrocities in the name of God (at least as translated by certain extremists, or according to certain Christians) DOESN'T use religion to commit atrocities. In that sense, this is a show about how religion is used. Not about whether it's good or bad on its face, or which religion is "right." It's only concerned with the right way to practice whatever it is you believe; that the world of God - whichever God you believe in - should be about love, grace, community, recovery, and redemption, even in the face of our worst sins (and an "evil" that will never cease, as personified by the vampire managing to fly away in the end/live another day, if only barely). And I thought this show was utterly brilliant in its exploration of those themes.
Proposition Joe
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I for one like most of TCTTS' takes.

But I've come to accept that he has a huge blind spot when it comes to what good horror is.
TCTTS
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I'm admittedly not a horror fan. Or, rather, I'm not a fan of cheesy horror, which I find most modern horror to be. That said, I don't see what that has to do with anything I said above? It's weird to me that people would hold something like this to *only* that standard. Could it have been creepier/scarier? Sure. But clearly Flanagan was more focused on the characters/themes than anything else, and I didn't see it as aiming to be anything other than what it was. In other words, I don't think it "failed" as horror. Because it was clearly trying to be/grapple with something other than just that.
Proposition Joe
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Proposition Joe
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It's not so much holding it to a certain kind of "horror" standard, and more that it's a rather derivative piece of work from the genre (vampires as a religion and vampires slowly infest small town) has already been done many times before (notably by a guy that Flanagan is a fanboy of so it's hard to miss).

So when you get past that, things fall on the characters and the acting. IMO the characters were all cookie-cutter cliche... Bev Keane might as well have been named Mrs. Carmody (The Mist) or Mrs. White (Carrie). Father Paul was a little deeper of a character, but it's still essentially Father Callahan (Salem's Lot and one of the Dark Tower books).

So you wind up with concepts that are derivative of one of Flanagan's favorite writers, and characters that are almost pulled directly from some of those writer's stories. I think that's where the blind spot exists in that much of it has been done before in the genre.

So it really comes down to execution. Is it well paced? Is it well acted? Pacing was solid up until the final few episodes IMO. It peaked when we saw the vampire in the religious garb in the church and went downhill from there. Acting all around was above average which is a feather in the cap of most of Flanagan's productions (even Oculus which isn't really that great a horror movie is well-acted throughout). Aside from my previously mentioned dislike of two of the female character's acting chops (and throw in the "turn back time" mother whose acting wasn't bad but makeup was brutal), I thought it was overall a well-acted flick. No characters ever really took me "out of the moment". Linklater was superb.

I like it, and I'll probably watch it again, but like the jabs I give you for The Witch ("scariest horror movie -you've- ever seen!"), I don't think it's really that transcendent a series. I'd put Haunting of Hill House above it 10 times outta 10.
Saxsoon
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Yeah I couldn't shake Salem's Lot while watching.

Brian Earl Spilner
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You really do gotta watch Hill House, TC.
Mr President Elect
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I think your use of [you've] in your last sentence is messing with your spoiler tags.

Although might be a bit of a lost cause after TCTTS' extensive review.
Proposition Joe
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Mr President Elect said:

I think your use of [you've] in your last sentence is messing with your spoiler tags.

Although might be a bit of a lost cause after TCTTS' extensive review.

Thank you - I tried about 17 different things.
TCTTS
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Proposition Joe said:

It's not so much holding it to a certain kind of "horror" standard, and more that it's a rather derivative piece of work from the genre (vampires as a religion and vampires slowly infest small town) has already been done many times before (notably by a guy that Flanagan is a fanboy of so it's hard to miss).

So when you get past that, things fall on the characters and the acting. IMO the characters were all cookie-cutter cliche... Bev Keane might as well have been named Mrs. Carmody (The Mist) or Mrs. White (Carrie). Father Paul was a little deeper of a character, but it's still essentially Father Callahan (Salem's Lot and one of the Dark Tower books).

So you wind up with concepts that are derivative of one of Flanagan's favorite writers, and characters that are almost pulled directly from some of those writer's stories. I think that's where the blind spot exists in that much of it has been done before in the genre.

So it really comes down to execution. Is it well paced? Is it well acted? Pacing was solid up until the final few episodes IMO. It peaked when we saw the vampire in the religious garb in the church and went downhill from there. Acting all around was above average which is a feather in the cap of most of Flanagan's productions (even Oculus which isn't really that great a horror movie is well-acted throughout). Aside from my previously mentioned dislike of two of the female character's acting chops (and throw in the "turn back time" mother whose acting wasn't bad but makeup was brutal), I thought it was overall a well-acted flick. No characters ever really took me "out of the moment". Linklater was superb.

I like it, and I'll probably watch it again, but like the jabs I give you for The Witch ("scariest horror movie -you've- ever seen!"), I don't think it's really that transcendent a series. I'd put Haunting of Hill House above it 10 times outta 10.


I hear you, and get where you're coming from. I guess, from my perspective, I think it's fine - sometimes smart, even - to use those tropes or familiar character dynamics or whatever to explore new themes via a new story for a new audience. It's like a remix or somewhat akin to what something like Stranger Things does. I just found the themes Flanagan was grappling with to be so expertly/cleverly handled that it was worth the "retread," IMO.

As for The Witch, ha, I don't care what you guys say, the moment the goat spoke was one of the most hair-raising things I've ever experienced in a theater. Combined with all the gnarly visuals and the subject matter itself, that was absolutely "horror" to me, and indeed, still one of the best scary movies I've ever seen.
Proposition Joe
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I just like to give you a hard time about The Witch. It's pretty critically acclaimed so it's certainly a solid flick, just didn't find it very horrifying.
 
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