Polygraph tests are so unreliable they're not even admissible in court in Texas. If you're going to discount the cell phone tower info you can't then rely on something even less reliable. Also don't understand the logic that if he's the killer why would he call in finding the body weeks later. Not to mention if the detectives only cared about getting a conviction, why wouldn't they just focus on him.

I also question the detectives deciding to railroad Adnan. It's not like he's was known to them before hand. They only knew him as the ex-boyfriend when she went missing. And then they concoct this elaborate scheme to feed info to an unreliable Jay and unknown Jen? Just sounds too Hollywood to me. Cops can definitely be crooked, but they're not typically criminal masterminds.

I completely understand that innocent people do get convicted of crimes they didn't commit and detectives get tunnel vision and focus only on the evidence that builds the case they believe to be right. But I just don't think that happened in this case. For the cops to just decide to make up an entire case, against someone they didn't even know, with evidence they didn't have, and all pending on the cooperation of eyewitnesses they didn't even know? Just too much of a reach for me.

guadalupeag said:

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Polygraph tests are so unreliable they're not even admissible in court in Texas. If you're going to discount the cell phone tower info you can't then rely on something even less reliable. Also don't understand the logic that if he's the killer why would he call in finding the body weeks later. Not to mention if the detectives only cared about getting a conviction, why wouldn't they just focus on him.

I also question the detectives deciding to railroad Adnan. It's not like he's was known to them before hand. They only knew him as the ex-boyfriend when she went missing. And then they concoct this elaborate scheme to feed info to an unreliable Jay and unknown Jen? Just sounds too Hollywood to me. Cops can definitely be crooked, but they're not typically criminal masterminds.

I completely understand that innocent people do get convicted of crimes they didn't commit and detectives get tunnel vision and focus only on the evidence that builds the case they believe to be right. But I just don't think that happened in this case. For the cops to just decide to make up an entire case, against someone they didn't even know, with evidence they didn't have, and all pending on the cooperation of eyewitnesses they didn't even know? Just too much of a reach for me.

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Someone with an Asian accent called a tip line and told them to "look at the ex-boyfriend". That's why they focused on Adnan. And Ritz had another conviction in 1999 that was later overturned due to his manufacturing evidence. Adnan is the 23rd Baltimore man to have his conviction overturned for similar reasons.

Also, I could not convict Alonzo Sellers based on the evidence I know. I am just suspicious of him. There's a difference.

Rex Racer said:

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guadalupeag said:

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Polygraph tests are so unreliable they're not even admissible in court in Texas. If you're going to discount the cell phone tower info you can't then rely on something even less reliable. Also don't understand the logic that if he's the killer why would he call in finding the body weeks later. Not to mention if the detectives only cared about getting a conviction, why wouldn't they just focus on him.

I also question the detectives deciding to railroad Adnan. It's not like he's was known to them before hand. They only knew him as the ex-boyfriend when she went missing. And then they concoct this elaborate scheme to feed info to an unreliable Jay and unknown Jen? Just sounds too Hollywood to me. Cops can definitely be crooked, but they're not typically criminal masterminds.

I completely understand that innocent people do get convicted of crimes they didn't commit and detectives get tunnel vision and focus only on the evidence that builds the case they believe to be right. But I just don't think that happened in this case. For the cops to just decide to make up an entire case, against someone they didn't even know, with evidence they didn't have, and all pending on the cooperation of eyewitnesses they didn't even know? Just too much of a reach for me.

---

Someone with an Asian accent called a tip line and told them to "look at the ex-boyfriend". That's why they focused on Adnan. And Ritz had another conviction in 1999 that was later overturned due to his manufacturing evidence. Adnan is the 23rd Baltimore man to have his conviction overturned for similar reasons.

Also, I could not convict Alonzo Sellers based on the evidence I know. I am just suspicious of him. There's a difference.

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I don't take the anonymous call as some big conspiracy, and frankly I'm not sure why it was emphasized as heavily as it was when the episodes came out. At the end of the day, is it that hard to imagine that one of Hae's relatives called the police and told them to focus on Adnan?

Quote:

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Multiple eyewitnesses saw Jay and Adnan together the day of the murder, including a disinterested third party, a friend of a friend whose apartment Jay and Adnan visited that evening to get high, who observed Adnan receive a call from police asking about the victim and then panic, saying things like, "They're gonna come talk to me. What am I supposed to say?" Cell phone location records corroborated Jay's timeline, which Jay would not have known in advance when he first told his story.

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/what-have-the-true-crime-podcasters-done/

Does anyone wish to dispute these facts?

Quote:

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In episode 6, when Adnan asks her what her interest in the case is, she answers, "My interest in it, honestly, is you. You're a really nice guy. I like talking to you." In another episode, she says she has a hard time believing Adnan did it because "I don't think he's a psychopath.... I think he has real feelings, because I've heard and seen him demonstrate empathy and emotion towards me, and towards other people."

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This wouldn't be the first time an alpha male in prison has turned on the charm to some portion of half the U.S. population. Happens constantly.

NPH- said:

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Rex Racer said:

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guadalupeag said:

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Polygraph tests are so unreliable they're not even admissible in court in Texas. If you're going to discount the cell phone tower info you can't then rely on something even less reliable. Also don't understand the logic that if he's the killer why would he call in finding the body weeks later. Not to mention if the detectives only cared about getting a conviction, why wouldn't they just focus on him.

I also question the detectives deciding to railroad Adnan. It's not like he's was known to them before hand. They only knew him as the ex-boyfriend when she went missing. And then they concoct this elaborate scheme to feed info to an unreliable Jay and unknown Jen? Just sounds too Hollywood to me. Cops can definitely be crooked, but they're not typically criminal masterminds.

I completely understand that innocent people do get convicted of crimes they didn't commit and detectives get tunnel vision and focus only on the evidence that builds the case they believe to be right. But I just don't think that happened in this case. For the cops to just decide to make up an entire case, against someone they didn't even know, with evidence they didn't have, and all pending on the cooperation of eyewitnesses they didn't even know? Just too much of a reach for me.

---

Someone with an Asian accent called a tip line and told them to "look at the ex-boyfriend". That's why they focused on Adnan. And Ritz had another conviction in 1999 that was later overturned due to his manufacturing evidence. Adnan is the 23rd Baltimore man to have his conviction overturned for similar reasons.

Also, I could not convict Alonzo Sellers based on the evidence I know. I am just suspicious of him. There's a difference.

---

I don't take the anonymous call as some big conspiracy, and frankly I'm not sure why it was emphasized as heavily as it was when the episodes came out. At the end of the day, is it that hard to imagine that one of Hae's relatives called the police and told them to focus on Adnan?

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Not at all. I was just saying that is why the police focused on Adnan. It wasn't because of Jen or Jay.

Redstone said:

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Quote:

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Multiple eyewitnesses saw Jay and Adnan together the day of the murder, including a disinterested third party, a friend of a friend whose apartment Jay and Adnan visited that evening to get high, who observed Adnan receive a call from police asking about the victim and then panic, saying things like, "They're gonna come talk to me. What am I supposed to say?" Cell phone location records corroborated Jay's timeline, which Jay would not have known in advance when he first told his story.

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/what-have-the-true-crime-podcasters-done/

Does anyone wish to dispute these facts?

---

The fact is that Jay and Adnan could not have been at the "friend of a friend's" house. That is Krista (not her real name Kathy). Krista had a class that night, so it could not have been the day Hae went missing. Krista could not have skipped class because it was a sort of mini-mester that only had 3 classroom sessions, and she would not have made a B in the class if she had skipped, plus Krista said she never skipped any of those classes. Originally, Jay had said that he and Adnan were at the McDonald's. When he said that, the cops thought a cell tower was next to the McDonald's. When the cops realized the cell tower was NOT next to the McDonald's, Jay had to come up with somewhere else they might have been. Turns out the cell tower is close to Krista's house, so Jay said they were there that day.

And don't even get me started on the cell tower evidence and Jay's story. The cops used incoming calls to try to corroborate Jay's story, which AT&T included a cover sheet with that evidence that said incoming calls are NOT to be used for location. And Jay's story changes GREATLY (not just a little bit) every time he tells it, even over a very short period of time.

I still think Adnan did it. Besides his "tone" during the interviews (which to me always felt off), the fact is that Jay knew where the car was. And didn't he also corroborate how she was murdered (strangulation)? Those are things only the killer or an accomplice to the killer could know.

The prosecution definitely messed up procedurally with the evidence they failed to submit, and that will prolly be enough to keep him free, but I still don't believe he's innocent. The 2 indisputable facts corroborated by Jay was the location of the GFs car and that she was strangled. So unless you think Jay was just "lucky" in finding the car and guessing the method of murder, then there's not much else to it.

What is His excuse for never attempting to contact her after she disappeared?

That on top of Jays testimony and the call that puts Adnan and Jay together, sure makes him look guilty.

GoAgs92 said:

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What is His excuse for never attempting to contact her after she disappeared?

That on top of Jays testimony and the call that puts Adnan and Jay together, sure makes him look guilty.

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Neither did her current boyfriend, Don.

As for the car, one of the other suspects had a relative that lived right next to where the car was found. I don't necessarily think that Jay took the cops to the car. It's possible they took him to the car. Again, Detective Ritz got in trouble for manufacturing evidence in other cases. So that's not just a theory. He actually did it before and since and got in trouble for it.

Rex Racer said:

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GoAgs92 said:

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What is His excuse for never attempting to contact her after she disappeared?

That on top of Jays testimony and the call that puts Adnan and Jay together, sure makes him look guilty.

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Neither did her current boyfriend, Don.

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Ok, but Don wasn't even mentioned by Jay and had no reason to murder her as far as I know.

GoAgs92 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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GoAgs92 said:

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What is His excuse for never attempting to contact her after she disappeared?

That on top of Jays testimony and the call that puts Adnan and Jay together, sure makes him look guilty.

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Neither did her current boyfriend, Don.

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Ok, but Don wasn't even mentioned by Jay and had no reason to murder her as far as I know.

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As far as you know.

I'm not saying Adnan is innocent, but I don't believe Jay, the cell tower junk science, or the cops in this case. It's not as cut and dried as some people think once you dig a little deeper.

I believe Adnan did it.

I believe that Jay helped bury Hae.

I believe the cops changed Jay's story to get an easier conviction.

I believe the cops and prosecution didn't play fairly.

Jay knew facts that he wouldn't have known unless he saw the body and or Adnan told him.

It was a crappy conviction of an guilty person.

Looks like the two other suspects are Bilal Ahmed and Alonzo Sellers.

Authorities aren't saying it, but if you look at what they said about the two suspects and know details surrounding the case and these two people, they are definitely the suspects.

Rex Racer said:

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Looks like the two other suspects are Bilal Ahmed and Alonzo Sellers.

Authorities aren't saying it, but if you look at what they said about the two suspects and know details surrounding the case and these two people, they are definitely the suspects.

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Just out of curiosity, do you think the guy from the staircase and the making a murderer guy are both innocent too?

Steven Avery is absolutely innocent!

…or not

GoAgs92 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Looks like the two other suspects are Bilal Ahmed and Alonzo Sellers.

Authorities aren't saying it, but if you look at what they said about the two suspects and know details surrounding the case and these two people, they are definitely the suspects.

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Just out of curiosity, do you think the guy from the staircase and the making a murderer guy are both innocent too?

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No. And I have said several times that Adnan might be guilty, I just lean towards not. Certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.

And Paul Flores is guilty as sin, and Rueben will go down for helping him hide Kristin's body.

Just started listening to the Kristen Smart podcast last week. Yikes!!! Even if Paul didn't do it (he did), guy should've been hung years ago for all of the other things he did.

Rex Racer said:

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GoAgs92 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Looks like the two other suspects are Bilal Ahmed and Alonzo Sellers.

Authorities aren't saying it, but if you look at what they said about the two suspects and know details surrounding the case and these two people, they are definitely the suspects.

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Just out of curiosity, do you think the guy from the staircase and the making a murderer guy are both innocent too?

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No. And I have said several times that Adnan might be guilty, I just lean towards not. Certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.

And Paul Flores is guilty as sin, and Rueben will go down for helping him hide Kristin's body.

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Glad to hear it, some people will believe whatever the documentary wants them to believe.

AJ02 said:

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Just started listening to the Kristen Smart podcast last week. Yikes!!! Even if Paul didn't do it (he did), guy should've been hung years ago for all of the other things he did.

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What's the name of that podcast?

NPH- said:

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AJ02 said:

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Just started listening to the Kristen Smart podcast last week. Yikes!!! Even if Paul didn't do it (he did), guy should've been hung years ago for all of the other things he did.

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What's the name of that podcast?

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Your Own Backyard

The policework in this one was absolutely atrocious too. He was the last known person to be seen with her alive. He walked her home to her dorm when she was sh-wasted (so drunk she passed out in someones front yard), he was a creepy af dude and had other issues with sexual assault, harassment, drugging and date raping women, etc.

He told a girl he would pay her money to sit naked on a glass coffee table while he looked from below. All the **** with his new truck bedliner. It's been a few years since I listened to this one and I couldnt believe he hadn't been arrested yet.

Good news is now he has.

BadMoonRisin said:

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The policework in this one was absolutely atrocious too. He was the last known person to be seen with her alive. He walked her home to her dorm when she was sh-wasted (so drunk she passed out in someones front yard), he was a creepy af dude and had other issues with sexual assault, harassment, drugging and date raping women, etc.

He told a girl he would pay her money to sit naked on a glass coffee table while he looked from below. All the **** with his new truck bedliner. It's been a few years since I listened to this one and I couldnt believe he hadn't been arrested yet.

Good news is now he has.

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In fact, the trial of Paul and Rueben is almost over.

Rex Racer said:

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jeffdjohnson said:

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It is a pretty sad indictment on things that a dude who choked out his girlfriend gets to become a celebrity because he sounded nice on a podcast. He had motive, opportunity, no alibi, his cell phone placed him in the area and he had an accomplice that helped bury her. Not to mention that the accomplice had information that directly implicated them in the crime. Maybe 20+ years is enough considering Adnan killed her when he was a minor. I don't know, I don't have personal stakes in this. But I do feel bad for the victim's family. A podcast has glorified the murderer of their child and now they have to re-live this trauma all over again. But this time there will be no closure (this case will never be tried again) they also get to watch Adnan cash in on murdering their daughter.

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There are some people out there that would say this about a cousin of mine, who spent 21 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. My cousin was picked out of an in-person lineup by the victim of a sexual assault. Because of her testimony, he was convicted. 21 years later, DNA proved him innocent.

The reason the victim picked him out of the lineup? Prior to the in-person lineup, the victim had been shown a photo lineup. My cousin was the only person in both the photo lineup and the in-person lineup, so the victim thought he must be the guilty party.

There really ARE innocent people in prison. It makes people feel uncomfortable, but it is true.

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Is your cousin Steven Avery circa 2003? Isn't that EXACTLY what happened to him?

JDUB08AG said:

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Rex Racer said:

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jeffdjohnson said:

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It is a pretty sad indictment on things that a dude who choked out his girlfriend gets to become a celebrity because he sounded nice on a podcast. He had motive, opportunity, no alibi, his cell phone placed him in the area and he had an accomplice that helped bury her. Not to mention that the accomplice had information that directly implicated them in the crime. Maybe 20+ years is enough considering Adnan killed her when he was a minor. I don't know, I don't have personal stakes in this. But I do feel bad for the victim's family. A podcast has glorified the murderer of their child and now they have to re-live this trauma all over again. But this time there will be no closure (this case will never be tried again) they also get to watch Adnan cash in on murdering their daughter.

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There are some people out there that would say this about a cousin of mine, who spent 21 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. My cousin was picked out of an in-person lineup by the victim of a sexual assault. Because of her testimony, he was convicted. 21 years later, DNA proved him innocent.

The reason the victim picked him out of the lineup? Prior to the in-person lineup, the victim had been shown a photo lineup. My cousin was the only person in both the photo lineup and the in-person lineup, so the victim thought he must be the guilty party.

There really ARE innocent people in prison. It makes people feel uncomfortable, but it is true.

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Is your cousin Steven Avery circa 2003? Isn't that EXACTLY what happened to him?

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No, not Steve Avery.

This is my cousin.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dna-evidence-frees-david-lee-wiggins-texas-prison-23-years-wrongful-conviction-article-1.1144854

In listening to the trial updates in the Kristen Smart trial, it almost sounds like the defense attorney is TRYING to lose the case. He seems completely incompetent.

Charges dropped

He did it and served more than half his lfe in prison.

I'm ok with this but I feel for her family.

The charges were dropped due to the DNA testing on Hae's shoes. This had never been tested before. It came back with the DNA of four people, none of whom are Adnan.

? Why would her shoes prove or disprove anything?

M.C. Swag said:

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? Why would her shoes prove or disprove anything?

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They dont. The corrupt DA essentially said if they do t find adnan's dna on these new items they will drop chargers. I feel so bad for the victim's family

M.C. Swag said:

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? Why would her shoes prove or disprove anything?

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They don't. And they don't need to at this point since his conviction was overturned. But they were waiting for this DNA test to come back before dropping the charges.

Since we have talked just a bit about the Kristin Smart case, the jury for Ruben Flores has reached a verdict, but the jury for Paul Flores is still out.

Interesting how they are going to read both verdicts at the same time.

Every time I see an update to this thread, I click on it expecting it to be a news item that Adnan and Koening are announcing they are expecting their first child.