I would actually argue that it's a culture issue.Madmarttigan said:
Westen countries need to look at how they have destroyed the cost of living for the average person if they want to fix birth rates. I have zero facts to back this up but us being in an unsustainable financial situation across a large portion of the country has a huge part in declining growth rate. Cost of living is at an insane high so why would people be signing up to have kids when things are already so expensive.
Disney to have "bloodbath" of layoffs next week
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Brittmoore Car Club said:TCTTS said:dreyOO said:
Last post as I can see you're bent on a position.
My faith is not unlike many other popular ones in the world in many respects. It's odd that you're presenting it as something I expect Disney to accommodate. I don't. But I thought they would also be smart enough to add up the number of different demos that they've decided to alienate for the sake of loud activists. It's just bad business.
My Muslim friends took great issue with the stuff Disney has done as well. I have essentially non-religious friends that are still for traditional upbringing and this pissed them off. My kids are surrounded by Indian Hindus at school every day and they're shielded from even watching Dance Moms without Tiger Mom supervision. These are not fringe groups. The are a lot of demos Disney decided to tick off. And to gain what? This is my only point. From a purely capitalistic perspective, I think they've been foolish.
only Disney could be this stupid and have such amazing staying power their classic material plus Star Wars plus the Marvel stuff is hard to quit. That doesn't mean it still hasn't been a misstep strategically. Imo, it has been.
I'm not denying a single thing you're saying. Many people of many religions - and even some secularists - are no doubt upset by depictions of gay people on screen. I'm sure they all feel as equally alienated too. Trust me, I hear as much on this board day after day after day.
Again... that's not what I'm arguing. My point is that your positions and your thoughts on the matter are only going to continue to become less and less popular, and thus more squarely found in a shrinking minority, as society inevitably marches toward a more tolerant future.
Boycott Disney all you want. Stop buying all the Bud Light for all I care. What I'm saying is that none of it is going to matter in the long run, and that your views will eventually go the way of those who were just as up in arms about black people achieving equal rights, then finding their way into more and more pop culture just the same. While Disney, and likely even Bud Light, will remain.
Also, you're just as "bent" on your position as I am on mine, so don't make it sound like I'm the only one being stubborn here.
You're basically calling people who don't want their toddlers seeing disproportionate amounts of gay relationships on TV "intolerant". That's that Hollywood bubble like of thinking I think. This is all about children's movies and shows. Gays have always been depicted on screen and it's been no secret and most of us have enjoyed them in various shows and movies.
I lived Brendan Fraser's role as a gay man in "The Whale" and bawled my eyes out at a certain point because my sympathy overflowed for him. We're not the anti gay hicks you and the Hollywood elite and the Don Lemons of the world like to think we are.
My fav character in Southland was Officer John Cooper, a gay man…and Ron Swanson in Last of Us. We don't have problems with gays being portrayed in film and TV like you think.
I'm saying it doesn't matter if your kids see two women kissing for two seconds in a Buzz Lightyear movie or not. Disney's not out here trying to turn your kids gay - nor *can* they turn your kids gay - so why on earth does it matter if your kids see an innocuous, harmlessly depicted kiss between two women on screen? ESPECIALLY when you don't care one bit about your kids seeing two heterosexual people kiss in the same Disney movie. It's a ridiculous double standard, one that supposes, by default, that one kind of kiss is "good" while the other kind of kiss is "bad." Which is utterly insane to me.
Does that mean I'm all for bringing children to drag shows? Hell no. But that's something totally different, and something that's *way* more sexualized. I'm simply talking about "normal" depictions of homosexuality that are no different than depictions of heterosexuality in the very same kids movies.
But not because of pop-culture messaging, right? Must be that fluoride in the water.Quote:
My point is that your positions and your thoughts on the matter are only going to continue to become less and less popular, and thus more squarely found in a shrinking minority,
I'm a Christian who's ashamed of the intolerance and baked in GOP values like gun culture that most of Western Christianity has adopted. Only in this country are the people with the most power and privilege constantly the victims.
What about children? Yeah nobody takes issue with you not wanting them to see sex scenes, but you're taking issue with a kiss. To be clear, I don't care about this movie or any other kids' movies. It's clear that the two of you are talking past one another because at least one of you is afraid to commit to any sort of position.Brittmoore Car Club said:Capybara said:
Probably arrogant but idc anymore. Those who are offended by the presence of gay people in entertainment, specifically legitimate art forms in entertainment, have no taste. Gay men in particular dominate, have dominated, and always will dominate the art world because we understand difference better than anyone else, on average at least, from a young age.
If you actually talk to gay men, and to a lesser extent lesbians and trans people, then you'll find that we generally either don't care for or actively dislike increasing corporate attachments to Pride (note that I exclude "Bi" people for good reason). Pride, like the most sacred halls of gay life, is best when gate kept and geared towards adults. If any city wants a family-friendly (and inevitably corporate) Pride Parade, then so be it, but it'd be nice if there were more weekends or parades/performances only for adults.
Our cinematic culture would improve once again if nearly all movies were either clearly for adults or for children. Teens/adolescents can choose one or the other.
Gays have been presented in entertainment for a long time, goodness, that's not what this is about. No one cares about that. I bet most of us live Elton John and would love to meet him. This is about children.
Right, gay people have been presented in entertainment for a while, but most depictions are unrealistic and roll eyes like mine since they're most often written/directed by straight people who have never experienced our particular visceral fears. Look, you and I are clearly very different people with different tastes. I'm guessing you're a staunch Christian which is more than fine if that helps you make sense of the world. My point is that the studios increasingly hate taking risks whether any narrative involves gay men or not, so then you get lots of bland "content" in the place of legitimate art forms. I, along with many invested in this issue, want to see the best filmmakers and creators be able to unravel their visions as freely as possible.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used the term "Christian", as many just use that as defining a culture (unfortunately). That term has lost all meaning. It doesn't sound like you and I define Christianity in the same way.fig96 said:
I'm a Christian who's ashamed of the intolerance and baked in GOP values like gun culture that most of Western Christianity has adopted. Only in this country are the people with the most power and privilege constantly the victims.
TCTTS said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter if your kids see two women kissing for two seconds in a Buzz Lightyear movie or not. Disney's not out here trying to turn your kids gay - nor *can* they turn your kids gay - so why on earth does it matter if your kids see an innocuous, harmlessly depicted kiss between two women on screen? ESPECIALLY when you don't care one bit about your kids seeing two heterosexual people kiss in the same Disney movie. It's a ridiculous double standard, one that supposes, by default, that one kind of kiss is "good" while the other kind of kiss is "bad." Which is utterly insane to me.
What you call a ridiculous double standard, tens of millions of people call following the Word of God.
We don't. After reading a lot of different takes on what the Bible actually says and the context it was said in, I decided a while back that I'm going to err on the side of loving people who have been the focus of hate from the church while they look the other way on things like divorce, other sexual sin, various forms of pastoral abuse, gossip, etc.DallasTeleAg said:I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used the term "Christian", as many just use that as defining a culture (unfortunately). That term has lost all meaning. It doesn't sound like you and I define Christianity in the same way.fig96 said:
I'm a Christian who's ashamed of the intolerance and baked in GOP values like gun culture that most of Western Christianity has adopted. Only in this country are the people with the most power and privilege constantly the victims.
If I end up on the wrong side of that, so be it.
Again... what you and I consider Christianity are obviously very different.
The church=/= God though.
100%, which is one of the wonderfully and horribly flawed things about Christianity.
I'm just fine with that.
I had a feeling this thread would turn epic from the very beginning.
DallasTeleAg said:
I think you've reached the end. You are not going to convince them of anything. We are hearing the same leftist and anti-Christian talking points being spouted. The funny thing is they are pushing this at you, not because you have said anything about oppressing them or shutting them up, but simply because you say you will choose not to subject your kids to it. That is just so strange...
Apparently, being a Christian, and believing certain acts are sinful because it is literally listed as such in the bible, is akin to being a racist and thinking the different races shouldn't get married. You can't argue with that level of ignorance and foolishness.
Does a week go by on this board in which you don't play the persecuted Christian card?
No one here has an issue with what you believe.
The problem begins when your beliefs are acted upon, exercised beyond yourself, and not only serve to ostracize perfectly good people, but make them feel like complete sh*t by demanding that their lifestyles not be depicted in the things your kids watch. Especially when their lifestyles aren't much different than yours - and are often *just* as loving - other than the fact that they were born with an opposite sexual orientation as you.
Choosing to believe what you think God has instructed you to believe, via a 2000-year-old book, does not automatically make those beliefs virtuous or immune from criticism. Believing something is a sin, simply because a book told you it's a sin, and then expecting the rest us to be like, "Oh, ok, well if it's in your book then go right ahead treating them as lepers and telling them they're going to burn in hell" is, objectively, insane. In other words, this whole, "Geez, I'm just doing what God tells me to do" schtick isn't a valid enough excuse to the rest of us for you to shame an entire subset of humanity for the way God apparently made them.
The Porkchop Express said:TCTTS said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter if your kids see two women kissing for two seconds in a Buzz Lightyear movie or not. Disney's not out here trying to turn your kids gay - nor *can* they turn your kids gay - so why on earth does it matter if your kids see an innocuous, harmlessly depicted kiss between two women on screen? ESPECIALLY when you don't care one bit about your kids seeing two heterosexual people kiss in the same Disney movie. It's a ridiculous double standard, one that supposes, by default, that one kind of kiss is "good" while the other kind of kiss is "bad." Which is utterly insane to me.
What you call a ridiculous double standard, tens of millions of people call following the Word of God.
See my answer to that immediately above.
Madmarttigan said:
I had a feeling this thread would turn epic from the very beginning.
I definitely didn't think TC would triumph over Jon Favreau and Jesus in the same 24 hours, thats for sure.
100s of those jobs could be saved if Iger cut his compensation from $27m to $1m
Who even needs to make that much money? How does a CEO justify telling hundreds of people they're now unemployed when he makes that much money? It's absurd.
Who even needs to make that much money? How does a CEO justify telling hundreds of people they're now unemployed when he makes that much money? It's absurd.
Thanks and gig'em
On this, we can agree. It's beyond absurd. I think Zaslav at WB is even worse, by a good amount, as he's currently slicing and dicing that company to death as well.
If you look at the financials on a per employee basis of Disney, Google, Meta, and just about any other megacorp there's no reason they actually had to layoff like they did.Aggie_Journalist said:
100s of those jobs could be saved if Iger cut his compensation from $27m to $1m
Who even needs to make that much money? How does a CEO justify telling hundreds of people they're now unemployed when he makes that much money? It's absurd.
Capybara said:What about children? Yeah nobody takes issue with you not wanting them to see sex scenes, but you're taking issue with a kiss. To be clear, I don't care about this movie or any other kids' movies. It's clear that the two of you are talking past one another because at least one of you is afraid to commit to any sort of position.Brittmoore Car Club said:Capybara said:
Probably arrogant but idc anymore. Those who are offended by the presence of gay people in entertainment, specifically legitimate art forms in entertainment, have no taste. Gay men in particular dominate, have dominated, and always will dominate the art world because we understand difference better than anyone else, on average at least, from a young age.
If you actually talk to gay men, and to a lesser extent lesbians and trans people, then you'll find that we generally either don't care for or actively dislike increasing corporate attachments to Pride (note that I exclude "Bi" people for good reason). Pride, like the most sacred halls of gay life, is best when gate kept and geared towards adults. If any city wants a family-friendly (and inevitably corporate) Pride Parade, then so be it, but it'd be nice if there were more weekends or parades/performances only for adults.
Our cinematic culture would improve once again if nearly all movies were either clearly for adults or for children. Teens/adolescents can choose one or the other.
Gays have been presented in entertainment for a long time, goodness, that's not what this is about. No one cares about that. I bet most of us live Elton John and would love to meet him. This is about children.
Right, gay people have been presented in entertainment for a while, but most depictions are unrealistic and roll eyes like mine since they're most often written/directed by straight people who have never experienced our particular visceral fears. Look, you and I are clearly very different people with different tastes. I'm guessing you're a staunch Christian which is more than fine if that helps you make sense of the world. My point is that the studios increasingly hate taking risks whether any narrative involves gay men or not, so then you get lots of bland "content" in the place of legitimate art forms. I, along with many invested in this issue, want to see the best filmmakers and creators be able to unravel their visions as freely as possible.
You little rodent, you!
The greatest prose to ever grace TexAgs:
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
TCTTS said:DallasTeleAg said:
What do you expect? You made a sensible point... and there is no response other than, "you could be right." However, cultists can't ever go against the cult.
I literally just posted, with verifiable facts, how and why the phase 4 numbers for the MCU weren't even remotely "appalling," as you called them. You straight up ignored that post, then implied that I not only pull stuff out of my ass, but that I'm also part of a cult.
You seriously have to be one of the most disgruntled, delusional posters on this board, somehow up there with aTmAg now, which is saying something.
Agreed
The greatest prose to ever grace TexAgs:
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
Lol... I have TC on ignore. I don't look at any of his posts replying to me.
Subject them to…a kiss in a movie that's probably terrible, the real issue for kids and Pixar alike?
How do you not realize by now that the prohibition on sodomy in scripture was written because its authors understood that it's the only way for some people to have satisfying sex (and now relationships) which butted against the proliferation of their civilization(s) due to the extremely high infant and childhood mortality rates then?
This has become explicitly political, which was inevitable since the post itself had a blatantly political subtext, but sometimes that's needed. Any person's romantic (and sexual if you believe Freud) relationships are defined by a mixture of a reconstruction or refutation of that of their parents' or whomever raised them. This is why gay men in particular excel artistically and professionally much more often than any other possible subgroup. We sense from an early age, often before puberty, that our relationships will very likely depart from this mixture. This is why gay men, with rare exceptions for anyone else, are the only ones able to make non-monogamy work. We're special. Get over it.
How do you not realize by now that the prohibition on sodomy in scripture was written because its authors understood that it's the only way for some people to have satisfying sex (and now relationships) which butted against the proliferation of their civilization(s) due to the extremely high infant and childhood mortality rates then?
This has become explicitly political, which was inevitable since the post itself had a blatantly political subtext, but sometimes that's needed. Any person's romantic (and sexual if you believe Freud) relationships are defined by a mixture of a reconstruction or refutation of that of their parents' or whomever raised them. This is why gay men in particular excel artistically and professionally much more often than any other possible subgroup. We sense from an early age, often before puberty, that our relationships will very likely depart from this mixture. This is why gay men, with rare exceptions for anyone else, are the only ones able to make non-monogamy work. We're special. Get over it.
Why does someone else's worldview bother you so much? No one said to ostracize gays. It's okay for someone with a particular worldview wanting to raise their kids a certain way. It's okay for someone with a particular worldview to comment on why they think a particular agenda being pushed by a corporation is probably affecting their bottom line.
No one has said we should round up the gays and throw them off buildings. I've known several gay men in my life and have nothing against them. I view homosexuality no better or worse than any other sin, and would never claim I am better than any homosexual. I have my own sins in my life, and do not hold someone else to any standard they do not prescribe to. Now, if someone tells me they are a Christian and are living in that sin with no problem, I would say they need to re-evaluate.
If you are not and you are gay... all power to you. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!
I am good friends with athiests and very secular people. If you were to ask all my closest friends, I never judge them or any aspect of their life. I only have discussions on religion or philosophy if we are truly just discussing it.
No one has said we should round up the gays and throw them off buildings. I've known several gay men in my life and have nothing against them. I view homosexuality no better or worse than any other sin, and would never claim I am better than any homosexual. I have my own sins in my life, and do not hold someone else to any standard they do not prescribe to. Now, if someone tells me they are a Christian and are living in that sin with no problem, I would say they need to re-evaluate.
If you are not and you are gay... all power to you. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!
I am good friends with athiests and very secular people. If you were to ask all my closest friends, I never judge them or any aspect of their life. I only have discussions on religion or philosophy if we are truly just discussing it.
Bottom line:
This is not a "religion vs. secularism" issue. It's a matter of Disney overcompensating to appease its more radical cast members and alienating a good portion of their primary animation audience (parents).
Hollywood insiders may argue that point, but they are flailing in the wind. The anti-Disney sentiment is very, very real, and it will continue to haunt the company. Every Disney animated film (and live action based on an animated classic) is now a lightning rod for criticism and a pawn in the culture wars.
It didn't need to be this way. So from a business perspective, that was a mistake.
Disney will be fine ... as long as comic book movies are popular, they'll continue to drown in cash. But all this stuff casts a pall over the Disney family brand and is a huge distraction for the company at large.
And as I said in an earlier post, I think Disney is creatively weak right now; one reason could be that the company's focus has shifted to inclusivity and social messaging rather than simple storytelling.
This is not a "religion vs. secularism" issue. It's a matter of Disney overcompensating to appease its more radical cast members and alienating a good portion of their primary animation audience (parents).
Hollywood insiders may argue that point, but they are flailing in the wind. The anti-Disney sentiment is very, very real, and it will continue to haunt the company. Every Disney animated film (and live action based on an animated classic) is now a lightning rod for criticism and a pawn in the culture wars.
It didn't need to be this way. So from a business perspective, that was a mistake.
Disney will be fine ... as long as comic book movies are popular, they'll continue to drown in cash. But all this stuff casts a pall over the Disney family brand and is a huge distraction for the company at large.
And as I said in an earlier post, I think Disney is creatively weak right now; one reason could be that the company's focus has shifted to inclusivity and social messaging rather than simple storytelling.
DallasTeleAg said:
Lol... I have TC on ignore. I don't look at any of his posts replying to me.
Why y'all's at each other's throats all the time?
The greatest prose to ever grace TexAgs:
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
https://texags.com/forums/5/topics/3216304/replies/59855160
Because, as much as they will deny it, they are the exact same person. Different sides of the same coin. Argumentative to a fault, thin-skinned, and ultra-sensitive.Ghost of Bisbee said:DallasTeleAg said:
Lol... I have TC on ignore. I don't look at any of his posts replying to me.
Why y'all's at each other's throats all the time?
The honest answer is that I, along with many other gay guys who grew up Christian, hated myself because of it during adolescence. This hatred often sets you back, and for many it ends their lives.
My anger rn is because guys like this (it's almost always the dads) think they can shield their kids from something improper or disallowed that is all too natural when all they're doing is setting their kid(s) back if they're gay. I know you probably can't fully understand this which is fine, but you will never be a young kid like me who would do the sign of the cross every time I "realized my desires". You will never be someone who endured your parents being grossed out by two guys kissing on the TV.
This is just some stupid message board, but these experiences cannot be felt by dandily floating by with "everyone has different worldviews but mine is actually the proper one". My goal isn't to eliminate, or even water down, larger Christian doctrine from society but rather to let you know that sexuality is determined.
The saddest part of all of this is that far more people, at least online, seem to care about this kiss rather than the movie being ****. Ideally, studios would recognize that the artists' visions matter more than anything else.
My anger rn is because guys like this (it's almost always the dads) think they can shield their kids from something improper or disallowed that is all too natural when all they're doing is setting their kid(s) back if they're gay. I know you probably can't fully understand this which is fine, but you will never be a young kid like me who would do the sign of the cross every time I "realized my desires". You will never be someone who endured your parents being grossed out by two guys kissing on the TV.
This is just some stupid message board, but these experiences cannot be felt by dandily floating by with "everyone has different worldviews but mine is actually the proper one". My goal isn't to eliminate, or even water down, larger Christian doctrine from society but rather to let you know that sexuality is determined.
The saddest part of all of this is that far more people, at least online, seem to care about this kiss rather than the movie being ****. Ideally, studios would recognize that the artists' visions matter more than anything else.
Appreciate you sharing this. And I'm sorry you've had to go through all of that.
The average consumer has zero idea that Disney is or has gone "woke".
If their movies are struggling, it's simply because the movies aren't that good. Now that may very well be due to concentrating more on "signaling" than "story", but chances are it's more likely it's a combination of a dilution of talent across additional competitors and a simple "bad run".
I haven't kept up with Disney's catalog, but I can't imagine this is the only 3-4 year stretch where they haven't had animated blockbuster after blockbuster.
If their movies are struggling, it's simply because the movies aren't that good. Now that may very well be due to concentrating more on "signaling" than "story", but chances are it's more likely it's a combination of a dilution of talent across additional competitors and a simple "bad run".
I haven't kept up with Disney's catalog, but I can't imagine this is the only 3-4 year stretch where they haven't had animated blockbuster after blockbuster.
I mean, the 70s/80s was basically bust after bust for them. The Little Mermaid kicked off the renaissance of Disney animation that many of us grew up on. Then it slowed down a good chuck in the late 90s/early 2000s as Pixar really started taking off and eventually led to them shifting away from traditional to 3D animation.Proposition Joe said:
The average consumer has zero idea that Disney is or has gone "woke".
If their movies are struggling, it's simply because the movies aren't that good. Now that may very well be due to concentrating more on "signaling" than "story", but chances are it's more likely it's a combination of a dilution of talent across additional competitors and a simple "bad run".
I haven't kept up with Disney's catalog, but I can't imagine this is the only 3-4 year stretch where they haven't had animated blockbuster after blockbuster.
There's a theory that some of those early 2000s films were intentionally not as widely appealing to help accelerate the shift to CG. That was also the time of theiir experiment with the Florida studio that actually put out a few really good movies (Mulan and Lilo & Stitch) and a few not great ones. Not sure if I entirely buy it (and actually a few films in there I really like), but it's an interesting take.bluefire579 said:I mean, the 70s/80s was basically bust after bust for them. The Little Mermaid kicked off the renaissance of Disney animation that many of us grew up on. Then it slowed down a good chuck in the late 90s/early 2000s as Pixar really started taking off and eventually led to them shifting away from traditional to 3D animation.Proposition Joe said:
The average consumer has zero idea that Disney is or has gone "woke".
If their movies are struggling, it's simply because the movies aren't that good. Now that may very well be due to concentrating more on "signaling" than "story", but chances are it's more likely it's a combination of a dilution of talent across additional competitors and a simple "bad run".
I haven't kept up with Disney's catalog, but I can't imagine this is the only 3-4 year stretch where they haven't had animated blockbuster after blockbuster.
This thread turned out exactly how everyone thought it would. Can't wait for the somewhat near future when people can stop pushing their religious superstitions on the rest of us. Young people increasingly don't care about your "faith" and that is going to make this country a better place.
I always love when childless libs (usually from self-affirming and virtue signaling bubbles, like Brooklyn/Hollywood etc.) tell people they are crazy/bigoted for not wanting to have conversations with their 3-4 year olds over why two men just kissed on screen. Same people would be pretty vocal if there was a modern Disney animation with overtly Christian themes...or even subtle.
If a gay person's value or sense of self-worth hinges on presence of gay lifestyles and activity being portrayed in Rated G film and TV, they have much bigger issues that should probably be addressed by a professional.
Sorry, to tens of millions of people, Aladdin kissing Genie is just not the same as Aladdin kissing Jasmine. I know you cannot even begin to wrap your conditioned minds around this. Tens of millions of "slackjawed hate filled bigots" lol. But a bunch of hipsters in Brooklyn and Hollywood on your side share your sentiment. I am sure they are right and the masses, with solid jobs and stable families, are wrong...like always.
If a gay person's value or sense of self-worth hinges on presence of gay lifestyles and activity being portrayed in Rated G film and TV, they have much bigger issues that should probably be addressed by a professional.
Sorry, to tens of millions of people, Aladdin kissing Genie is just not the same as Aladdin kissing Jasmine. I know you cannot even begin to wrap your conditioned minds around this. Tens of millions of "slackjawed hate filled bigots" lol. But a bunch of hipsters in Brooklyn and Hollywood on your side share your sentiment. I am sure they are right and the masses, with solid jobs and stable families, are wrong...like always.
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