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*** Masters of the Air ***

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Fuzzy Dunlop
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9:09a, 3/1/24
AG
I'm not pleased per se about the Tuskegee folks coming into the story. However, if the show was 100% based on the book for which the show is named, I would say the story doesn't need to be told in this show. But, the book is a broad outline for the show but they are taking things from other sources too so I don't have a problem with the Tuskegee Airmen being featured as it appears they will be.
Double Talkin' Jive...
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wangus12
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In reply to ChipFTAC01 • 9:13a, 3/1/24
AG
Correct
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aTmAg
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In reply to ChipFTAC01 • 9:58a, 3/1/24
AG
ChipFTAC01 said:
aTmAg said:
Yeah I hope the Tuskegee stuff somehow weaves into the story properly. That it doesn't come off as a "look here! Black pilots did brave stuff too!" But at this point, I can't figure out how they can possibly do it properly. Especially since they were geographically far away.
The Tuskegee were in Italy, right?
Yeah, they were stationed in Italy and I don't think they ever escorted the 100th anywhere. Or even anybody in the 8th air force.

When the show started, I assumed they would show the Tuskagee guys in a separate story and then have them meet the 100th guys in POW camps. That it would be a split story coming together. I would have been cool with that, but it doesn't appear that they are going to even do that. I fear it's going to be way out of place. I would rather this mini series be 12 episodes and they sprinkle the Tuskegee stuff throughout, then for them to shoehorn it in randomly in one or two episodes at the end.
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TH36
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In reply to aTmAg • 10:33a, 3/1/24
aTmAg said:
ChipFTAC01 said:
aTmAg said:
Yeah I hope the Tuskegee stuff somehow weaves into the story properly. That it doesn't come off as a "look here! Black pilots did brave stuff too!" But at this point, I can't figure out how they can possibly do it properly. Especially since they were geographically far away.
The Tuskegee were in Italy, right?
Yeah, they were stationed in Italy and I don't think they ever escorted the 100th anywhere. Or even anybody in the 8th air force.

When the show started, I assumed they would show the Tuskagee guys in a separate story and then have them meet the 100th guys in POW camps. That it would be a split story coming together. I would have been cool with that, but it doesn't appear that they are going to even do that. I fear it's going to be way out of place. I would rather this mini series be 12 episodes and they sprinkle the Tuskegee stuff throughout, then for them to shoehorn it in randomly in one or two episodes at the end.


Or make an entire different show about it since the remake of the movie wasn't that great.
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aTmAg
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In reply to TH36 • 10:48a, 3/1/24
AG
TH36 said:
aTmAg said:
ChipFTAC01 said:
aTmAg said:
Yeah I hope the Tuskegee stuff somehow weaves into the story properly. That it doesn't come off as a "look here! Black pilots did brave stuff too!" But at this point, I can't figure out how they can possibly do it properly. Especially since they were geographically far away.
The Tuskegee were in Italy, right?
Yeah, they were stationed in Italy and I don't think they ever escorted the 100th anywhere. Or even anybody in the 8th air force.

When the show started, I assumed they would show the Tuskagee guys in a separate story and then have them meet the 100th guys in POW camps. That it would be a split story coming together. I would have been cool with that, but it doesn't appear that they are going to even do that. I fear it's going to be way out of place. I would rather this mini series be 12 episodes and they sprinkle the Tuskegee stuff throughout, then for them to shoehorn it in randomly in one or two episodes at the end.


Or make an entire different show about it since the remake of the movie wasn't that great.
I agree it should be separate. I think I saw a trailer for one of the movies you mention, and it looked bad. I'm not sure if it was the original or the remake. The problem with those types of movies is that it always focuses 99% on racism. Every black American was dealing with racism, but only a tiny percentage of people were zooming around at 500mph in P-51s shooting Nazis. THAT'S what makes their story amazing. It's like when First Man dedicated most of that movie to Neil Armstrong's marital problems rather than the fact that he almost died 5 times doing badass things in his life.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TresPuertas • 11:03a, 3/1/24
TresPuertas said:
if anyone hasn't heard of it already a good companion piece to this show is a book titled "a higher call".

it's about the luftwaffe and the army air corps and how they operated in WWII. one of the scenes in this episode has the commandant of Stalag 3 speaking to the men about how it is in everyone best interest that they stay in a camp operated by the luftwaffe.

the book sheds some light on this subject and i never knew it but the luftwaffe operated somewhat independently of the Nazi party and as such they had a lot more honor and treated the prisoners much better than the Gestapo or SS would have treated prisoners. from what i recall the luftwaffe didn't require their members to be part of the party and its members acted in a way more similar to the americans and allies than your typical nazi. they were a lot less hardcore and way less cruel in their treatment.

the book goes into far greater detail and there are some amazing stories of honor amongst the German pilot ranks. Goering was a ****head to be sure but the american pilot POWs were in far better hands in this situation than the alternative.


If Tres and I independently hyped the same book within 5 posts of each other, y'all should probably check into it such a great book. Imagine this same production crew with their money and resources making a Franz Stigler miniseries.
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drmwvr
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 11:23a, 3/1/24
AG
It's an amazing book. We are not the only ones to agree


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PatAg
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12:00p, 3/1/24
AG
I'll wait to see the episode before I get how the Tuskegee airmen are used in the show
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AgLA06
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In reply to PatAg • 12:08p, 3/1/24
AG
PatAg said:
I'll wait to see the episode before I get how the Tuskegee airmen are used in the show
Yah,

It almost sounds like it may have little to do with the 100th and more to filling out the storyline of letting the fighters loose to destroy the Luftwaffe so the invasion of France can take place. While this story started with the 100th and the 8th, I think this will end up being a more over reaching story of the air war in Europe in general. Which, to be honest isn't a bad path to take.

With BOB you had the ability to follow an elite and high profile unit from training in America all the way to the end of the war. Pacific allowed a more choppy story of the island hopping campaign against the Japanese. With little to no one left to need to be non-fiction, this may just be the story of the European air campaign in general. Just through the eyes of the bloody 100th.

And with the Majors in Stalag Luft III, I think Rose will end up being the main character and all the hand wringing over Elvis will have been for nothing.
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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12:32p, 3/1/24
AG
Were there any black air or ground crew members in England or the 100th specifically? To me, if there were, that would have been a more natural and appropriate way to diversify the story with the blatant shoehorning they are doing with the Tuskegee airmen. I would much rather see them get a comparable series of their own from the same creators/production team
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TresPuertas
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 1:24p, 3/1/24
AG
ha!

i actually didn't see your post before i posted mine.

just shows you the book is awesome.
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Murder Hornet
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In reply to HummingbirdSaltalamacchia • 9:20p, 3/1/24
AG
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
Were there any black air or ground crew members in England or the 100th specifically? To me, if there were, that would have been a more natural and appropriate way to diversify the story with the blatant shoehorning they are doing with the Tuskegee airmen. I would much rather see them get a comparable series of their own from the same creators/production team


From the book there were. It goes into some detail regarding segregation laws at the time and the effect that had overseas in England
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TXTransplant
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5:15a, 3/2/24
Question about POWs - did the US military know who the Germans had captured? Did the Germans report names? Did the families of POWs give the military information since the men were getting some mail through the Red Cross?
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TresPuertas
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In reply to TXTransplant • 10:30a, 3/2/24
AG
as far as this camp goes, yes. like i said earlier, the luftwaffe worked differently than the nazis.

there were some camps that allowed mail and even care packages in. a rather fascinating story is the red dot monopoly boards.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/01/how-monopoly-games-helped-allied-pows-escape-during-world-war-ii/266996/#:~:text=The%20%E2%80%9Cspecial%20edition%E2%80%9D%20Monopoly%20sets,a%20little%20more%20like%20freedom.
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InternetFan02
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12:33a, 3/6/24
AG
Doing the rewatch and I'm sorry but episodes 5 and 6 are some of the greatest 2 hours of cinema I've ever experienced. Package with the last act of episode 4 and there's a standalone premiere movie. I don't know anything about the directors of 5 and 6 but that was their chance to shine and they ****ing nailed it. I'm not a cinephile and there was something different about every way it was presented, more than just the story. Maybe they got away from accuracy to make it more dramatic but I don't care

I hope that anyone who bailed after the first episodes gives the middle episodes a chance..

Listening to the official podcasts something that sticks out is that there is often talk about how British covid policies really challenged the filming process which can help explain why 5 and 6 feel so different.
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InternetFan02
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In reply to HummingbirdSaltalamacchia • 12:38a, 3/6/24
AG
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
Were there any black air or ground crew members in England or the 100th specifically? To me, if there were, that would have been a more natural and appropriate way to diversify the story with the blatant shoehorning they are doing with the Tuskegee airmen. I would much rather see them get a comparable series of their own from the same creators/production team
podcast spoilers that talk about Tuskegee role in future episodes:

a producer claimed in one of the official podcasts that they found Tuskegee airmen were involved in whatever goes down in that POW camp so that's the tie in. I'll be cautiously optimistic
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wangus12
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10:13p, 3/7/24
AG
An okay episode, but probably my least favorite of the show. Did feel like it was setting up for the finale, but also felt like the writers bit off more than they could chew. Just way too many storylines. The chick story is simply not needed for the show. I do wish we'd been introduced to the Tuskegee men earlier, just to get to know them a little bit more.

Show could have really used at least 10 episodes.
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PatAg
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In reply to wangus12 • 11:05p, 3/7/24
AG
wangus12 said:
An okay episode, but probably my least favorite of the show. Did feel like it was setting up for the finale, but also felt like the writers bit off more than they could chew. Just way too many storylines. The chick story is simply not needed for the show. I do wish we'd been introduced to the Tuskegee men earlier, just to get to know them a little bit more.

Show could have really used at least 10 episodes.
I think they should have gotten 10-15 minutes last episode for this reason. As is, they clearly fit into this show and all the hand wringing was for nothing.
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aTmAg
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6:08a, 3/8/24
AG
I don't think they fit in the show at all. Just like Crosby's woman.

They should have either focused 100% on the 100th, or sprinkled other units throughout the entire show.

Since they had chosen the former, then just show the Tuskegee airmen entering the camp like everybody else (assuming they really did bunk with Elvis). Don't spend episode 8 of 9 on guys we have never met. There are a gazillion dudes in that camp. They didn't waste an episode on any of their missions. And I'm a guy who loves P-51s.

And spend a little more time on D-day for crying out loud. They only spent 10 seconds. Sure they had air superiority, but the missions were unique. The final episode of BoB had little to no fighting at all and yet, it was one of the best of the series. Cut the woman and P-51 mission and spend more time on one of the most important days in human history. Show a shot from the air of the gazillion dudes in the beaches. Show gliders in the ground or something that ties this show to the 101st and BoB. Total missed opportunity.
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Ag Since 83
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7:32a, 3/8/24
AG
Heck, I would have taken an entire episode of Crosby stressed out prepping for D-Day, becoming more and more tired, rather than the brief montage we got.

It feels like they don't know how to end a show about pilots once the two leads end up in a POW camp for so long, so they're moving through the last 18 months of the war really fast.
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wangus12
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10:08a, 3/8/24
AG
I'll also say this, its clear that they ran into some budget issues. The CGI in the last 2 episodes has been really poor.
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aggie_wes
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4:10p, 3/8/24
AG
So disappointed. 60% of Episode 8 is garbage. Bad dialogue, bad CGI, new storyline that's barely been hinted at the whole series so far. Just really not good.

I'm not offended by the "whitey bad" storyline, it just feels so forced and over-the-top which makes it feel out of place.
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OldArmy71
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7:06p, 3/8/24
AG
I didn't think this episode was that bad.

Just FYI, in his book Crosby says he never knew what the Brit did. The story they invent for her is plausible.



In fact, Crosby makes a guess that she is some sort of agent who gets sent into occupied territory from time to time.
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aTmAg
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In reply to OldArmy71 • 9:02p, 3/8/24
AG
OldArmy71 said:
I didn't think this episode was that bad.

Just FYI, in his book Crosby says he never knew what the Brit did. The story they invent for her is plausible.

I don't think it's plausible at all. They wouldn't waste an Intel officer to babysit Crosby for a week.
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AJ02
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In reply to aggie_wes • 9:07p, 3/8/24
AG
Agree. I thought the dialogue was awful.
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arrow
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9:08p, 3/8/24
AG
Whether true or untrue, the last two episodes seem like made up BS in an otherwise great show. Too many storylines that simply fall flat or seem meaningless. Episode 8 was bad.

They either needed to cut Crosby corniness and Tuskegee bit or both. Or add more episodes to fully flesh out what we are watching.

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Falcon74
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2:17a, 3/9/24
AG
Not surprised at all this came up short. Too much fluff. Terrible start and finish.
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Cinco Ranch Aggie
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8:31a, 3/9/24
AG
Episode 8 was the weakest of the series. Either it flew by or it was much shorter than the previous episodes.

At the surface level, I don't mind pivoting to the Tuskegee Airmen, but I agree it feels like the filmmakers forced them into the narrative. Given that we have only 9 episodes, why wait until episode 8 to introduce them? I did love the P-51s and also the P-40 strafing sequence was great. But the book upon which this is based has a subtitle: "America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany". The particular missions of any fighter groups are not really part of that story, whereas much of what has been depicted previously, including the POW camps, are a part of the story of the bomber crews. Now, the show is simply known as "Masters of the Air", so fighter groups can certainly be included in that, but it just feels like they put the TA in for reasons other than serving the overall story. A better approach to including fighter squadrons would have been those that actually escorted bombers out of England.

Crosby's story was interesting, but I agree they spent more time on that subplot than really necessary. I'd have been far more interested in his planning the D-Day raids.

This series should have either been extended by half an hour per episode, or given an additional number of distinct episodes. Especially if they intended to branch away from the main narrative to include other arenas of the air war in Europe. There is a lot to wrap up in one final episode.
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Ag Since 83
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8:41a, 3/9/24
AG
There are a few different examples of them teasing something and then having it happen off screen in the show, but I think the worst case is from the end of episode 7 to episode 8.

End of episode 7: "Rosie, we need to destroy the Luftwaffe before we can invade France, so you need to be the bait. Are you up for that challenge?"

Beginning of episode 8: Now at D-Day, having seen the bombers used as bait 0 times
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jwoodmd
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 8:49a, 3/9/24
Ag Since 83 said:
There are a few different examples of them teasing something and then having it happen off screen in the show, but I think the worst case is from the end of episode 7 to episode 8.

End of episode 7: "Rosie, we need to destroy the Luftwaffe before we can invade France, so you need to be the bait. Are you up for that challenge?"

Beginning of episode 8: Now at D-Day, having seen the bombers used as bait 0 times
Agree completely. Even if five minutes (and there they'd bring the fighters in) would have been the strategy of the bombers as bait but also the story of many fighters being freed up to search for "opportunities" like strafing German airfields, dogfights, etc., i.e., all those things that destroyed the Luftwaffe.
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arrow
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9:20a, 3/9/24
AG
They could've given us a special episode about Yeager that explained fighter escorts, E&E through France and Spain, and been directly based on the book. So disappointed they missed this opportunity.
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jwoodmd
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In reply to arrow • 9:27a, 3/9/24
arrow said:
They could've given us a special episode about Yeager that explained fighter escorts, E&E through France and Spain, and been directly based on the book. So disappointed they missed this opportunity.
They miss soooo many opportunities. Show should have been 10-12 episodes and each one 55-60 minutes. Not the 40-45 minutes - still bugs me that the credits start rolling and the time bar shows what should be at least 8 minutes left.
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rynning
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In reply to aggie_wes • 9:35a, 3/9/24
AG
aggie_wes said:
So disappointed. 60% of Episode 8 is garbage. Bad dialogue, bad CGI, new storyline that's barely been hinted at the whole series so far. Just really not good.
I agree. So many bits of various story lines while the biggest story line of all feels glossed over. Even the POW storyline fell flat because nothing really happens. Almost like Hogan's Heroes but without the humor.
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aTmAg
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9:36a, 3/9/24
AG
It seemed to me, that this episode seemed so out of place, that there had to be an explanation. I did some googling and found this:

Quote:
But first, Orloff spent an entire year creating a show outline with Hanks, which came to be known as the show's "Bible," a 250-page book with 500 footnotes.
From there, it took four years for Orloff to write the first seven episodes.
"These shows were written more like a movie is written rather than how a TV show is written," Orloff said. "I wrote the first seven episodes before the show was greenlit, which is a very unusual situation."

So he wrote the first seven episodes before the show was greenlit, and 8 and 9 afterwards. So either he decided randomly to add the Tuskegee stuff after it was greenlit (doubtful), or he was pressured to do so by the greenlighters (highly likely).

It seems, to me, that the woke mob at Apple pressured them to add "people of color" at the last moment. That's why it seemed to be so awkwardly shoehorned in.

So again, wokeness ruins everything.
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OldArmy71
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10:32a, 3/9/24
AG
At this point in the series, I have to say the whole thing is just not very well done.

The characters are one-dimensional.

The acting is mediocre. Austin Butler was a bad choice, or maybe it just came at a bad time in his career, fresh from spending three years of his life doing an Elvis impersonation that he just can't shake. But ALL of the acting is flat.

The dialogue is mediocre.

The special effects are fairly good.

The pacing is strange. The episodes are too short; they're trying to cover WAY too much in too short a time. They needed a couple of more episodes. No idea how they can wrap this all up in one episode, especially given how short they are.

I don't mind the Tuskegee Airmen, but their inclusion suffers the same fate as the rest of the series: flat characters; stilted, "important" dialogue; no real development.

It's interesting to read the reviews from British viewers on IMDb. Acknowledging that the series is of course focused on the American Air Forces, these viewers are still universally dismayed at how poorly the RAF is portrayed in the sense of being the butt of what they consider unnecessary cheap shots.

I applaud Hanks and Spielberg for attempting to tell this story, but this effort has been piecemeal and not well done. The story is much better told in movies such as Twelve O'Clock High.

It is a pity.

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