I'd be interested to read the whole study. What exactly are they looking for as far as cause of death? It's not like there is a sign that says "this damage caused by COVID mRNA vaccine". If they saw damage or inflammation, how would they differentiate this from other causes of damage and inflammation? I'm sure there are ways; I would just want to hear about them.

Best I can tell this was a review article of autopsies done on people who died soon after getting COVID vaccines. But they only accepted a small number of these for the review, and of those accepted studies a huge number were death due to COVID vaccine as judged by the person doing the autopsy or they died of something that the authors of this review attributed to the COVID vaccine, like a thromboembolism. We don't know why the authors rejected so many reports, and we can't conclusively say that any of the things the author's listed were pathognomonic for COVID vaccines and not caused any multitude of other things

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I'd be interested to read the whole study. What exactly are they looking for as far as cause of death? It's not like there is a sign that says "this damage caused by COVID mRNA vaccine". If they saw damage or inflammation, how would they differentiate this from other causes of damage and inflammation? I'm sure there are ways; I would just want to hear about them.

Best I can tell this was a review article of autopsies done on people who died soon after getting COVID vaccines. But they only accepted a small number of these for the review, and of those accepted studies a huge number were death due to COVID vaccine as judged by the person doing the autopsy or they died of something that the authors of this review attributed to the COVID vaccine, like a thromboembolism. We don't know why the authors rejected so many reports, and we can't conclusively say that any of the things the author's listed were pathognomonic for COVID vaccines and not caused any multitude of other things

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Agree. I just do not think this is as cut and dry as the pro vax folks seem to believe.

As I have stated repeatedly, I think the vaccine drastically decreased severity of disease and mortality early on. So any risks were out weighed by the benefits.

I do not think that is the case now. The less spike protein exposure one has, the better in my opinion.

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The less spike protein exposure one has, the better in my opinion.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Covid virus itself produces spike proteins.

Zobel said:

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crappy research? sure. but i don't present pre-publications pulled for problems (how's that for alliteration?!) as evidence of some kind of antivax conspiracy.

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Great alliteration!

I do think there was a bias towards pro vax. Which was reasonable early on. Not sure now.

But different views were definitely blocked. I would not cause it a "conspiracy" more like a confirmation bias deal.

This doesn't comport with what I see though. Dozens of papers published on side effects of various vaccines, many vaccines didn't pass safety or efficacy trials.

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The less spike protein exposure one has, the better in my opinion.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Covid virus itself produces spike proteins.

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And every vax is an additional exposure.

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Sorry, but the vaccine is specifically not the same as the virus itself. The mRNA-produced proteins in the vaccine are not going to cause Covid or a similar cytokine storm.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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This doesn't comport with what I see though. Dozens of papers published on side effects of various vaccines, many vaccines didn't pass safety or efficacy trials.

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Oh I agree. And we are waiting on the vaccines for our grandkids as there is no reason to bombard kids with the vax cocktail at such a young age.

I have a very smart daughter.

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The guidelines are based on exposures kids experience and their risk of severe infection. The standard childhood vaccines given according to recommendations show no adverse effects based on timing or clusters. Your daughter is going off of vibes, not science.

I didn't say you were an antivaxxer. Nor was I attempting to prove the current schedule. I could, but it's time I'm not interested in using at the moment. I was just showing that there is a lot of research that goes into the choice of vaccines and the timing of them. It's not just about convenience. They are testing infection, morbidity, and mortality rates based on the combinations, schedules, and formulas.

There are most definitely reasons for the childhood vaccine schedule. The most common underlying thought is "what is the absolute earliest we can vaccinate these children so they have immunity as soon as possible to these horrible, preventable infections?" Aside from that the rest is pediatric immunology, which is must admit is not my strongest subject.

I do know that you have to wait until 1 year of age to give live viruses. You have to usually give infants more doses than you would give older children or adults, because their immune system requires more stimulation at that age to develop a good response. It's more or less the same reason why babies die of illness easier than older children or adults.

I've never seen any data that shows any problems giving all the vaccines together. For instance, at a 2 month visit I'll give 8 vaccines. Sure, the parents could make 8 different appointments over the subsequent 2 months, and that would also work. But if it's all the same, then why bother? I do have some parents want to spread things out that way and I'm happy to work with them. If they don't mind the repeated visits, then it's no big deal to me.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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There are most definitely reasons for the childhood vaccine schedule. The most common underlying thought is "what is the absolute earliest we can vaccinate these children so they have immunity as soon as possible to these horrible, preventable infections?" Aside from that the rest is pediatric immunology, which is must admit is not my strongest subject.

I do know that you have to wait until 1 year of age to give live viruses. You have to usually give infants more doses than you would give older children or adults, because their immune system requires more stimulation at that age to develop a good response. It's more or less the same reason why babies die of illness easier than older children or adults.

I've never seen any data that shows any problems giving all the vaccines together. For instance, at a 2 month visit I'll give 8 vaccines. Sure, the parents could make 8 different appointments over the subsequent 2 months, and that would also work. But if it's all the same, then why bother? I do have some parents want to spread things out that way and I'm happy to work with them. If they don't mind the repeated visits, then it's no big deal to me.

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I tend to agree and my daughter is much more of a vaccine schedule out activist than I am.

She is still going to give my grand kids the vaccines but spread out more. She fired her first pedi because she would not work with them but now has someone who will.

I'm pretty pushy about pertussis, Hib, pneumococcal and rotavirus, as those diseases are really only deadly to infants. So if you wait too long there is no point to getting those vaccines anyway, and if the child happens to catch those diseases then things can be bad quickly. Anything else is a big shrug from me

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I'm pretty pushy about pertussis, Hib, pneumococcal and rotavirus, as those diseases are really only deadly to infants. So if you wait too long there is no point to getting those vaccines anyway, and if the child happens to catch those diseases then things can be bad quickly. Anything else is a big shrug from me

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Thanks for the info.

Weird takeaway from the article. Even so it isn't "one third" it is "one third of recent".


Why not screencap the weekly deaths above normal trend? Or look at something like this...

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/dataviz8737/viz/COVID_excess_mort_withcauses_06282023/WeeklyExcessDeaths

Or, given the thread title, why not quote this?

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Covid's victims are both older and disproportionately unvaccinated. Given the politics of vaccination, the recent victims are also disproportionately Republican and white. Each of these deaths is a tragedy. The deaths that were preventable -- because somebody had not received available vaccines and treatments -- seem particularly tragic.

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Sapper Redux said:

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SociallyConditionedAg said:

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I'm so glad I didn't violate my religious principles by taking a vax created with fetal cell lines. It turned out to be deadly and ineffective. How many people who took it wish they hadn't?

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It wasn't. And it wasn't.

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It wasn't what?