Zobel said:
I honestly wonder about your literacy sometimes. You really seem to hallucinate.
I'm going off of what you write.
The innocent Palestinians we should weap for.
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Last: 9 mo ago by dermdoc
I'm going off of what you write.
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
This whole post is laughable, but the last sentence is the best.Zobel said:
Israel doesn't follow a Judeo Christian culture.
And not all Arabs are Muslims.
The inferior culture here is that which lacks Christ, and becomes nothing more than a culture that celebrates death.
Israelis have as little use for you as a Christian as they do for Islam. Don't simp for those who hate you.
I'm not saying the the Israeli army/government is without issues, but the two sides aren't even comparable.
One wants to ethnically cleanse the other, the other is nearly finished being ethnically cleansed.
Both need Christ, and neither deserves our praise or support.
Both need Christ, and neither deserves our praise or support.
Until they return every civilian hostage (and bodies of the dead hostages), I have zero sympathy for their side.Zobel said:
One wants to ethnically cleanse the other, the other is nearly finished being ethnically cleansed.
Both need Christ, and neither deserves our praise or support.
There are a lot of people on that "side" that have nothing to do with Hamas and have never taken up arms against Israel.
It's pretty simple to say: I don't support terrorism. I don't support ethnic cleansing. I don't support attacks against civilians or civilian infrastructure.
If you agree with all of those statements, then you can't support Hamas or Israel.
It's pretty simple to say: I don't support terrorism. I don't support ethnic cleansing. I don't support attacks against civilians or civilian infrastructure.
If you agree with all of those statements, then you can't support Hamas or Israel.
Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
And Palestinian antisemitism is from what, exactly?
Antisemitism is bad. Anti-Christian sentiment is bad. One does not justify the other.
Antisemitism is bad. Anti-Christian sentiment is bad. One does not justify the other.
Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
Islamic antisemitism is nothing new and antisemitic riots in the Levant predated Israel.Zobel said:
And Palestinian antisemitism is from what, exactly?
Antisemitism is bad. Anti-Christian sentiment is bad. One does not justify the other.
Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Those were just off the top of my head, but you answered exactly how I thought you would, which brings me back to my original question.
Why are all the Jewish atrocities a legitimate reaction to prior Christian atrocities, but the Christian ones unwarranted persecution?
In your mind, it's extremely logical for jews to lash out at Christians for their crimes in the past, but Christians are blood thirsty savages for being upset about the murder of their God a few hundred years earlier?
Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Those were just off the top of my head, but you answered exactly how I thought you would, which brings me back to my original question.
Why are all the Jewish atrocities a legitimate reaction to prior Christian atrocities, but the Christian ones unwarranted persecution?
In your mind, it's extremely logical for jews to lash out at Christians for their crimes in the past, but Christians are blood thirsty savages for being upset about the murder of their God a few hundred years earlier?
I never said it was logical. But the best you can do are a few isolated examples of Jewish attacks on Christians versus millennia of systematic persecution across multiple societies (virtually every Christian society) and the murder of millions of Jews. If you can't see the slight discrepancy in that, you're not addressing the matter honestly.
I don't understand the "my atrocity is worse than your atrocity" line of thinking among many Jewish people I've spoken with. Is losing a wife at age 60 worse than losing a father at age 38, maybe? Does it matter? Does one person deserve less consolation or sympathy than the other? Was the holodomor worse than the fireboming of Dresden or dropping the bomb on Japan?Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Those were just off the top of my head, but you answered exactly how I thought you would, which brings me back to my original question.
Why are all the Jewish atrocities a legitimate reaction to prior Christian atrocities, but the Christian ones unwarranted persecution?
In your mind, it's extremely logical for jews to lash out at Christians for their crimes in the past, but Christians are blood thirsty savages for being upset about the murder of their God a few hundred years earlier?
I never said it was logical. But the best you can do are a few isolated examples of Jewish attacks on Christians versus millennia of systematic persecution across multiple societies (virtually every Christian society) and the murder of millions of Jews. If you can't see the slight discrepancy in that, you're not addressing the matter honestly.
Most racial/cultural/tribal/religious animosity is a complicated knot consisting of multiple causes but largely each is a product of a legitimate beef at some point in time. I can definitely understand early Christian's animosity towards jews given that they felt that the jews had killed their God (an action that has virtually no analog) and then teamed up with the ruling powers to antagonize them.
Similarly, I can definitely understand Jew's fear that "every european/christian civilization that we come into contact with either kills us or kicks us out of their country" and the impac that has on their behavior with their host country.
Given that both of them are reasonable; what is to be done?
Quo Vadis? said:
I don't understand the "my atrocity is worse than your atrocity" line of thinking among many Jewish people I've spoken with. Is losing a wife at age 60 worse than losing a father at age 38, maybe? Does it matter? Does one person deserve less consolation or sympathy than the other? Was the holodomor worse than the fireboming of Dresden or dropping the bomb on Japan?
Most racial/cultural/tribal/religious animosity is a complicated knot consisting of multiple causes but largely each is a product of a legitimate beef at some point in time. I can definitely understand early Christian's animosity towards jews given that they felt that the jews had killed their God (an action that has virtually no analog) and then teamed up with the ruling powers to antagonize them.
Similarly, I can definitely understand Jew's fear that "every european/christian civilization that we come into contact with either kills us or kicks us out of their country" and the impac that has on their behavior with their host country.
Given that both of them are reasonable; what is to be done?
I think the recognition of the histories and atrocities of different sides as you've done is a good start. And I don't think that this sort of behavior is limited to any one group, it feels pretty universal for just about all groups. Most people have a really good eye for identifying how their tribe has been wronged and virtually no interest in understanding how their tribe has wronged anyone else.
Quo Vadis? said:I don't understand the "my atrocity is worse than your atrocity" line of thinking among many Jewish people I've spoken with. Is losing a wife at age 60 worse than losing a father at age 38, maybe? Does it matter? Does one person deserve less consolation or sympathy than the other? Was the holodomor worse than the fireboming of Dresden or dropping the bomb on Japan?Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Those were just off the top of my head, but you answered exactly how I thought you would, which brings me back to my original question.
Why are all the Jewish atrocities a legitimate reaction to prior Christian atrocities, but the Christian ones unwarranted persecution?
In your mind, it's extremely logical for jews to lash out at Christians for their crimes in the past, but Christians are blood thirsty savages for being upset about the murder of their God a few hundred years earlier?
I never said it was logical. But the best you can do are a few isolated examples of Jewish attacks on Christians versus millennia of systematic persecution across multiple societies (virtually every Christian society) and the murder of millions of Jews. If you can't see the slight discrepancy in that, you're not addressing the matter honestly.
Most racial/cultural/tribal/religious animosity is a complicated knot consisting of multiple causes but largely each is a product of a legitimate beef at some point in time. I can definitely understand early Christian's animosity towards jews given that they felt that the jews had killed their God (an action that has virtually no analog) and then teamed up with the ruling powers to antagonize them.
Similarly, I can definitely understand Jew's fear that "every european/christian civilization that we come into contact with either kills us or kicks us out of their country" and the impac that has on their behavior with their host country.
Given that both of them are reasonable; what is to be done?
What's reasonable about slaughtering Jews hundreds to thousands of years after Jesus died and promoting new, insidious theories and stereotypes? We aren't talking about 300 AD. We're talking about a long, persistent hatred that has evolved and metastasized over time and has no corollary in Jewish actions or attitudes.
Not that anything the Jews have done has deserved the treatment they are given, but let's not pretend the Jewish people have been altruistic saints when interacting with other people. For nearly all the European medieval era, Jewish people served as landlords, managers, and middlemen for foreign rulers of conquered people. If the Germans conquered the Baltics, for instance, the conquering lords would not move there themselves. They would empower the local Jews to govern the native Baltic peoples, and administer law in their stead. Sometimes this was done ruthlessly and brutally. It the equivalent of carpet baggers after the Civil War in the US.Quote:
What's reasonable about slaughtering Jews hundreds to thousands of years after Jesus died and promoting new, insidious theories and stereotypes? We aren't talking about 300 AD. We're talking about a long, persistent hatred that has evolved and metastasized over time and has no corollary in Jewish actions or attitudes.
At other times, famine or depression would spread through a community. The local Jewish communities typically had more connections to foreign and distant lands, and they were able to pull through with help of this distributed network. That's a big credit to Jews and their sense of community and responsibility to each other. However, it's also easy to understand why local Christians with starving children might get upset that the Jews were eating well and not sharing.
A lot of the current anti-semitism, at least in Eastern Europe, is due to the fact that Jews at times made up huge portions of the brutal and merciless Soviet secret police agencies. Again, not hard to imagine why a Polish person living under the Soviet boot would be unhappy with Jews if they constituted a big portion of the feared secret police force.
To reiterate, none of this is anything extraordinary, and it's pretty run of the mill for any ethnic group. It is certainly not a justification of anti-Semitism or the atrocities visited upon Jews historically. However, it makes it easy to see why certain groups of people would have very negative opinions about Jews generally, especially in Europe
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Quote:
For nearly all the European medieval era, Jewish people served as landlords, managers, and middlemen for foreign rulers of conquered people. If the Germans conquered the Baltics, for instance, the conquering lords would not move there themselves. They would empower the local Jews to govern the native Baltic peoples, and administer law in their stead. Sometimes this was done ruthlessly and brutally. It the equivalent of carpet baggers after the Civil War in the US.
This is largely not true, particularly the idea of Jews as landlords or middlemen. There were short periods in the High Middle Ages in Poland where something like this happened in some places at some times. Largely, Jews were forbidden from owning land and forced to live in ghettos. The Church tried to force the subjugation of Jews and limit their economic opportunities. A few were able to work as money lenders or middlemen because they were seen as not-beholden to local political and religious rivalries. But it was also because they owed their safety and security to local lords who could seize Jewish property and money if needed without consequence.
Quote:
A lot of the current anti-semitism, at least in Eastern Europe, is due to the fact that Jews at times made up huge portions of the brutal and merciless Soviet secret police agencies. Again, not hard to imagine why a Polish person living under the Soviet boot would be unhappy with Jews if they constituted a big portion of the feared secret police force
Antisemitism is long engrained in Eastern Europe and has nothing to do with Soviet secret police. Jews who returned to their homes in Poland after World War II often found their homes occupied and their things stolen. There were several pogroms against Holocaust survivors in Poland. That had nothing to do with the Soviets. These were Polish Jews. The antisemitic canards follow traditional claims and things like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" were produced and accepted well before the Soviets.
Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:I don't understand the "my atrocity is worse than your atrocity" line of thinking among many Jewish people I've spoken with. Is losing a wife at age 60 worse than losing a father at age 38, maybe? Does it matter? Does one person deserve less consolation or sympathy than the other? Was the holodomor worse than the fireboming of Dresden or dropping the bomb on Japan?Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
So the best you can do are two contested episodes with debatable sources (including the Sassanian conquest which involved prior Christian atrocities against Jews during the conflict) from antiquity and the death of Jesus which was done by the Romans. Of course, we know the death of Jesus was used to justify horrifying crimes against Jews for millennia. Is that just in your mind? Are the two sides equal to you?
Those were just off the top of my head, but you answered exactly how I thought you would, which brings me back to my original question.
Why are all the Jewish atrocities a legitimate reaction to prior Christian atrocities, but the Christian ones unwarranted persecution?
In your mind, it's extremely logical for jews to lash out at Christians for their crimes in the past, but Christians are blood thirsty savages for being upset about the murder of their God a few hundred years earlier?
I never said it was logical. But the best you can do are a few isolated examples of Jewish attacks on Christians versus millennia of systematic persecution across multiple societies (virtually every Christian society) and the murder of millions of Jews. If you can't see the slight discrepancy in that, you're not addressing the matter honestly.
Most racial/cultural/tribal/religious animosity is a complicated knot consisting of multiple causes but largely each is a product of a legitimate beef at some point in time. I can definitely understand early Christian's animosity towards jews given that they felt that the jews had killed their God (an action that has virtually no analog) and then teamed up with the ruling powers to antagonize them.
Similarly, I can definitely understand Jew's fear that "every european/christian civilization that we come into contact with either kills us or kicks us out of their country" and the impac that has on their behavior with their host country.
Given that both of them are reasonable; what is to be done?
What's reasonable about slaughtering Jews hundreds to thousands of years after Jesus died and promoting new, insidious theories and stereotypes? We aren't talking about 300 AD. We're talking about a long, persistent hatred that has evolved and metastasized over time and has no corollary in Jewish actions or attitudes.
Reasonable? Nothing after that period of time. I'm sure the Hatfields and McCoys feud started with a legitimate gripe, generations later they're just fighting because they've always been fighting.
Wow, someone still unironically believes the accusation of Jewish deicide.Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
First of all, crucifixion was a Roman (and Carthaginian) punishment, not a Jewish one.
Also, the Roman Catholic Church (which I'm assuming that you're a member of due to your gratuitous Latin username) officially renounced Jewish collective guilt for killing Jesus back in the 1960's.
But for the sake of argument, let's suppose that "the Jews" did kill Jesus. I see at least two major points of Christian theology for why this shouldn't be considered the most horrible crime ever:Quote:
still, what happened in his passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today" (Nostra Aetate 4).
- Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure "The victim is alive after all!" is a valid defense against a murder charge. Torture, yes. Vigilante justice, yes. But not murder.
- Christians believe that Jesus's death was necessary in order for people to have their sins forgiven and be eligible for eternal life. Logically, Christians should be thanking the Jews for killing Jesus, because Christianity wouldn't exist if Jesus had lived to old age and died of natural causes.
BonfireNerd04 said:Wow, someone still unironically believes the accusation of Jewish deicide.Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Are you claiming Jews have deserved persecution? It's not like the persecutors were coy or shy about what they were doing or why. Which Christian persecutions by Jews are you referencing?Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:So you're just ignoring history. Got it.Quo Vadis? said:Would that make Anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians largely a result of them persecuting Christians?BonfireNerd04 said:Zobel said:
I never said Muslims hate Christians, though some do. Some Jews do, too. Especially the ultra right in Israel.
And I never said culture is based wholly on religion.
Anti-Christian sentiment among Jews is largely a result of Christendom spending most of its history persecuting the Jews.
This reminds me of the joke:
What do you call a bunch of Christians complaining about Jews? - Antisemitism
What do you call a bunch of Jews complaining about Christians?- Sociology
This is one of the few times in which history is actually written by the losers.
In every case, when Jews are persecuted it's due to the jealousy or stupidity of the persecutors. When Christians are persecuted it's because they deserved it for past crimes.
Persecution itself is practically a tautology for "undeserved ill treatment" so you're working yourself into a lather over nothing". Why do Christians deserve persecution?
For starters you have early examples like the execution of Christ, stoning of St Stephen, Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem, and the pillages of Dhu Nawas.
It doesn't take many of those examples to set bad blood between two peoples.
First of all, crucifixion was a Roman (and Carthaginian) punishment, not a Jewish one.
Also, the Roman Catholic Church (which I'm assuming that you're a member of due to your gratuitous Latin username) officially renounced Jewish collective guilt for killing Jesus back in the 1960's.But for the sake of argument, let's suppose that "the Jews" did kill Jesus. I see at least two major points of Christian theology for why this shouldn't be considered the most horrible crime ever:Quote:
still, what happened in his passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today" (Nostra Aetate 4).
- Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure "The victim is alive after all!" is a valid defense against a murder charge. Torture, yes. Vigilante justice, yes. But not murder.
- Christians believe that Jesus's death was necessary in order for people to have their sins forgiven and be eligible for eternal life. Logically, Christians should be thanking the Jews for killing Jesus, because Christianity wouldn't exist if Jesus had lived to old age and died of natural causes.
Im not speaking on the topic of whether the Jews have any collective guilt now, I'm saying at the time the people who killed Christ were Jewish.
And your arguments are facile. Jesus was murdered, regardless of whether he rose from the dead.
Secondly, the Bible itself contradicts your second argument in that it says Judas, who betrayed Christ, is the son of perdition and it would be better had he not been born; this is obviously not thanking him for ensuring the death of God.
ETA: Also, Nostra Aetate is non binding.
Quote:
I'm saying at the time the people who killed Christ were Jewish.
No, the gospels are pretty clear they were Roman.
Quote:
ETA: Also, Nostra Aetate is non binding.
Are you saying the Jews should still be collectively guilty?
Sapper Redux said:Quote:
I'm saying at the time the people who killed Christ were Jewish.
No, the gospels are pretty clear they were Roman.Quote:
ETA: Also, Nostra Aetate is non binding.
Are you saying the Jews should still be collectively guilty?
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
I don't think that Jews have any sort of collective guilt for the death of Christ, at least no more so than any other person.
Without digging too far into the weeds, I don't bear any sort of guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve, yet I'm still stained by original sin. Nostra Aetate went way too far in its ecumenical outreach in multiple avenues.
Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
That's idiotic.
Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
That's idiotic.
If you're wondering why some Christian's have animosity towards Jews, it's because they have the chutzpah to call millennia old widely held beliefs "idiotic"
Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
That's idiotic.
If you're wondering why some Christian's have animosity towards Jews, it's because they have the chutzpah to call millennia old widely held beliefs "idiotic"
Yeah, totally logical to slaughter people, lock them in ghettos, and destroy their lives. Totally proportional response.
Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
That's idiotic.
If you're wondering why some Christian's have animosity towards Jews, it's because they have the chutzpah to call millennia old widely held beliefs "idiotic"
Yeah, totally logical to slaughter people, lock them in ghettos, and destroy their lives. Totally proportional response.
If you get kicked out of 1 bar, it might be the bar's problem.
If you get kicked out of 100+ bars, it might be time for some soul searching.
Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quo Vadis? said:Sapper Redux said:Quote:
We're not going to come to an agreement on this, but the Gospels are clear the Romans were just doing the will of the Jews, and tried multiple times to figure out a way not to crucify Jesus and were thwarted each time.
They went full bore torture, mockery, and literally the most painful, humiliating form of execution they had, but somehow they really didn't want to kill the guy?
Yes.
That's idiotic.
If you're wondering why some Christian's have animosity towards Jews, it's because they have the chutzpah to call millennia old widely held beliefs "idiotic"
Yeah, totally logical to slaughter people, lock them in ghettos, and destroy their lives. Totally proportional response.
If you get kicked out of 1 bar, it might be the bar's problem.
If you get kicked out of 100+ bars, it might be time for some soul searching.
Ah, yes, totally not the antisemitic groyper meme, right? Yeah, it's the Jews' fault for not becoming Christian. They deserved to be slaughtered periodically and used as scapegoats by rulers and the Church.
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