Reading further Hippolytus also calls Wisdom the mother of Jesus. I've never heard that take before either.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I see that. I think that's the case too spiritually. But how does that reality transfer into praying or requesting things from her instead of Jesus. I don't understand the benefit when you have direct access to God?

Doing a quick read of Hippolytus. He calls Jesus tbe Aotc.

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Do you see how Mary is included and intertwined in the holiness of Jesus? She is his tabernacle and it was through her union with the Holy Spirit that Jesus was conceived. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, and likewise Jesus would not dwell in an unclean tabernacle or share his perfect blood with sin as he formed in his mother's womb. Genesis tells us complete enmity would be between the woman and the serpent, and between her offspring and his.

Mary is the Ark, Tabernacle, Woman, and our Queen mother who sits on her throne at the right hand of Jesus interceding on behalf of her children.

Zobel said:

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No… it's a pretty big topic. You know that the East has never accepted papal primacy, right?

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Was the early Church "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic" in your opinion?

We named our daughter, Sophia (Greek for wisdom), after Mary Seat of Wisdom.

But Jesus ate with sinners no? Isn't her virginity symbolic of the Holiness without claiming perfection?

I guess I don't understand 1. The need to claim she never sinned and 2. To pray to her. Which those are the two questions I never see addressed by Catholics.

Was she blessed Yes. Was she Holy in tbe literal sense yes. Was she the tabernacle. Yes. But not the temple. As the church is now the temple. We, the church, the wife of Christ serve as the temple role now. Carrying the Word of God in our hearts

True but one made of skin and while in the wilderness. The other made of stone. Jesus is the cornerstone. The church is the new everlasting temple.

Zobel said:

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Of course the church is one. Oneness doesn't come from having a single titular human leader. It comes from having body, with one head, who is Christ. Wherever the bishop is with the people, there is the Church.

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So St. Peter was like all the others?

That doesn't make Mary not the dwelling place of the Lord. Or us, for that matter. We are also the temple, as the spirit dwells within us. I don't think there is a distinction to be drawn there.

I agree. Which again begs the question why pray to Mary or make requests to her?

Even if we say St Peter had some particular charism, it does not follow that it only went to the successor bishops of Rome as opposed to, say the church he also founded in Antioch. And it also does not follow that leadership in and of itself carries with it all of the later suppositions of supremacy that Rome claims.

I can't imagine this is the first time you've encountered the objections of the East (which go back as far as ante-Nicaea).

I must say the more I learn of EO views the more I find myself agreeing with them

But intercession can occur without requests. Also scripturally what is the benefit to that over just praying to Jesus. Even when Jesus demonstrates prayer it's to the Father only. Unless I'm mistake no apostle teaches or demonstrated any prayer to anyone apart from God

I follow the logic. So if you have a prayer request how do you personally go about it?

How does one pray to a guardian angel? Is it in general terms like "dear guardian angel" or is there a name you use?

Genuinely curious, not trying to engage in debate or question you maliciously.

Zobel said:

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Even if we say St Peter had some particular charism, it does not follow that it only went to the successor bishops of Rome as opposed to, say the church he also founded in Antioch. And it also does not follow that leadership in and of itself carries with it all of the later suppositions of supremacy that Rome claims.

I can't imagine this is the first time you've encountered the objections of the East (which go back as far as ante-Nicaea).

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Oh, but it does. Not called the Eternal City for nothing. What other churches founded by the first apostles remain?

ETA: no, not my first rodeo with the primacy of Peter. Carry on.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I must say the more I learn of EO views the more I find myself agreeing with them

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Which EO? Zobel is Greek EO?

I guess the Greek? Not completely familiar but I'm finding my own conclusions based on plain scripture reading without pretext is aligning a lot with what I'm reading from I guess Greek Orthodox believe.

Antioch. Jerusalem. Alexandria.

There are various versions. Here's one:

O Holy Angel that standeth by my wretched soul and my passionate life, forsake not me, a sinner, nor shrink from me because of mine intemperance. Give no place for the cunning demon to master me through the violence of my mortal body, strengthen my poor and feeble hand, and guide me in the way of salvation. Yea, O holy angel of God, guardian and protector of my wretched soul and body, forgive me all wherein I have offended thee all the days of my life; and if I have sinned during the past night, protect me during the present day, and guard me from every temptation of the enemy, that I may not anger God by any sin. And pray to the Lord for me, that He may establish me in His fear, and show me, His servant, to be worthy of His goodness.

I find it incredibly interesting the 7 churches written to in the book of revelation are in turkey. They surround Constantinople which becomes the capital of the Byzantine empire, a nation with Christianity as their official religion. I don't know what to conclude from that but I find it interesting we see a geographical shift away from Jerusalem and Rome.

The Eastern Orthodox churches have common dogma and doctrine. We are one church, in communion. There's no difference bin these things between Antioch and Greek or Russian etc.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I must say the more I learn of EO views the more I find myself agreeing with them

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This is called the "Zobel Effect."

Again not trying to be argumentative but learn. Why ask forgiveness from the angel? Is it like seeking forgiveness from a person you've offended? I'm assuming that's the case, what offense is against a guardian angel?

I attribute it to the plain reading of scripture lol. When you dump preconceived ideas and beliefs and just read the Word of God it's amazing what is revealed n

Yes exactly, like asking forgiveness from a friend. When you sin, it damages relationships even apart from the people you don't sin directly against, no?

Undoubtedly so

I'm officially lost again with the latest development of praying to angels.

Zobel said:

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Antioch. Jerusalem. Alexandria.

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Did not each of these fall in subsequent Islamic conquests?

Wasn't Rome conquered by barbarians? What does that matter? The chain of succession is unbroken.