10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't know how to make it any simpler that Sola Scriptura.

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Fair enough. Read 1 Timothy 2 3-4.

Why do Reformed theologians have to add "all kinds of men" when Sola Scriptura says all men.

People want to make Scripture inerrant. Until they don't.

My interpretation is that those added words you are mentioning are not necessary or perhaps even true; you may have to point out a specific theologian and their exegesis on that one if so. This is getting more into God's secret vs revealed will. What God desires is not always what God ultimately decrees. Just like God didn't desire for sin to enter the world, nevertheless the existence of sin fulfills his greater purposes.

10andBOUNCE said:

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My interpretation is that those added words you are mentioning are not necessary or perhaps even true; you may have to point out a specific theologian and their exegesis on that one if so. This is getting more into God's secret vs revealed will. What God desires is not always what God ultimately decrees. Just like God didn't desire for sin to enter the world, nevertheless the existence of sin fulfills his greater purposes.

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Every Reformed theologian I have read inserts "all kinds of men" to explain this direct confrontation to their theology. From my reading, Reformed hate the simple word "all" in so many, many Scriptures.

You are much nicer and reasonable than most of them.

I'm still a relative baby in my reformed journey, but I am familiar with what you're referring to in several places where "all" is used in scripture. For now, I'll have to say I'm not sure, but will definitely add it to my never ending list of things I'd like more understanding on.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm still a relative baby in my reformed journey, but I am familiar with what you're referring to in several places where "all" is used in scripture. For now, I'll have to say I'm not sure, but will definitely add it to my never ending list of things I'd like more understanding on.

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I'm curious. In college I was at Grace, and there was a heavy lean reformed from their college group (Pastor when I left was once saved always saved), but what drew you to Calvinism?

Grace was my church as well while in college and that overall period of my life was very special to me and my faith. After I graduated in 2008, I ended up in Dallas and spent the next couple of years attending The Village Church in Lewisville and then eventually was part of their Dallas campus when that opened up. Chandler was the first teacher that really introduced me to the ideas of Calvinism. I didn't even really pay attention to the TULIP details at the time; it was just the idea of my total depravity that seemed to really be my takeaway. This was definitely the springboard that planted a lot of reformed seeds.

We spent the next several years moving around the country being part of pretty typical mid sized non-denomination churches. During this time, my dad, who grew up catholic in Chicago, really took off on his reformed journey. It was quite a drastic change for him, and it was impactful for me. So we obviously have talked a good bit about these things as he introduced me to a lot of the Ligonier resources.

Before Covid, my wife and I really started questioning what we really believed church should be, and a couple of sermons by John Piper stand out as being pretty formative at the time. We had had some unfortunately negative experiences in churches at this time. During Covid and soon afterwards, we went through another move and were not in a church home for a couple of years. At this point I had been doing quite a bit of research on reformed Baptist churches and eventually found one in our area that was drivable.

We've been at our church for a couple of years now. It's been extremely enriching for our family as we continue to learn and try to apply the doctrines of grace. While I do agree with another recent poster that we can tend to over complicate some of these matters, I also do think the Bible is so saturated with God's truth and clues about who He is. The process is often referred to as "mining" the word of God. I think that is where I am at now (and likely will be the rest of my life). I think Ephesians 3 hits on a bit of this. And as the first question of the Westminster Cathechism speaks to the chief end of man - we are to glorify God and enjoy Him fully. I think mining the Bible for his unsearchable riches is just one way we can enjoy him.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Grace was my church as well while in college and that overall period of my life was very special to me and my faith. After I graduated in 2008, I ended up in Dallas and spent the next couple of years attending The Village Church in Lewisville and then eventually was part of their Dallas campus when that opened up. Chandler was the first teacher that really introduced me to the ideas of Calvinism. I didn't even really pay attention to the TULIP details at the time; it was just the idea of my total depravity that seemed to really be my takeaway. This was definitely the springboard that planted a lot of reformed seeds.

We spent the next several years moving around the country being part of pretty typical mid sized non-denomination churches. During this time, my dad, who grew up catholic in Chicago, really took off on his reformed journey. It was quite a drastic change for him, and it was impactful for me. So we obviously have talked a good bit about these things as he introduced me to a lot of the Ligonier resources.

Before Covid, my wife and I really started questioning what we really believed church should be, and a couple of sermons by John Piper stand out as being pretty formative at the time. We had had some unfortunately negative experiences in churches at this time. During Covid and soon afterwards, we went through another move and were not in a church home for a couple of years. At this point I had been doing quite a bit of research on reformed Baptist churches and eventually found one in our area that was drivable.

We've been at our church for a couple of years now. It's been extremely enriching for our family as we continue to learn and try to apply the doctrines of grace. While I do agree with another recent poster that we can tend to over complicate some of these matters, I also do think the Bible is so saturated with God's truth and clues about who He is. The process is often referred to as "mining" the word of God. I think that is where I am at now (and likely will be the rest of my life). I think Ephesians 3 hits on a bit of this. And as the first question of the Westminster Cathechism speaks to the chief end of man - we are to glorify God and enjoy Him fully. I think mining the Bible for his unsearchable riches is just one way we can enjoy him.

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Thank you for your testimony. And I love Ephesians 3. My problem is when I read Ephesians 3 and "mine" the word of God for revelations of His character, I can not reconcile the doctrine of double predestination.

Yeah, I remember this from other threads and I honestly have to just give this one to the LORD. Some things I don't know if we can truly reconcile in our finite minds. So while I hold it to be true that God elects some and passes over others, I'm very likely not going to be able to present a thorough explanation of that in way that's going to be helpful to you. I believe scripture supports this doctrine, but I'm not naive enough to be blind to how others may not. I sit in the tension of it, but at the end of the day I think we are both of the mind that God is sovereign and just.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Yeah, I remember this from other threads and I honestly have to just give this one to the LORD. Some things I don't know if we can truly reconcile in our finite minds. So while I hold it to be true that God elects some and passes over others, I'm very likely not going to be able to present a thorough explanation of that in way that's going to be helpful to you. I believe scripture supports this doctrine, but I'm not naive enough to be blind to how others may not. I sit in the tension of it, but at the end of the day I think we are both of the mind that God is sovereign and just.

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Agree my brother in Christ.

When we are in the presence of the Lord we will know.

Great civil conversation!

On the topic of double predestination, that concept is never mentioned in the Bible, where God elects or predestinates some to hell.

Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. That's on man.

"Mankind knows about God, but rejects God in their thinking and in their actions (Romans 1:21-22). The wrath of God, therefore, is the giving over of man to live his life as he pleases (Romans 1:24, 26, 28), which apart from God leads to destruction (Romans 1:28-32). Man rejects the God of the universe, and God, in turn, forsakes man."

Those who currently rejected God today, can they still be saved, right? Yes, of course. Do we know man's heart? No, but God does. Do we know who will turn from their deprivation and be saved? God does. From before the world was created.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"
Ephesians 1:4-5 NASB1995

Zobel said:

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Time doesn't apply to God. "Before" and "after" are human experience.

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If God created a universe with the experience of time, then wouldn't time apply in some way to God? Clearly God must be aware of what time is and how it would be experienced.

2 Peter 3:8

NIV
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

No. If time affects God, then He is subject to it, and is a creation. God is outside of time the same way He is outside of space. Before and after are how things are experienced by humans. God acts, and we experience it in time. Before and after are from our perspective.

God doesn't "know" things the way we know them either. So it's not fruitful to talk about God's knowledge of things in human terms. He doesn't experience things as we do. God is totally other.

""For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord."
Isaiah 55:8

""For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:9

Zobel said:

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No. If time affects God, then He is subject to it, and is a creation. God is outside of time the same way He is outside of space. Before and after are how things are experienced by humans. God acts, and we experience it in time. Before and after are from our perspective.

God doesn't "know" things the way we know them either. So it's not fruitful to talk about God's knowledge of things in human terms. He doesn't experience things as we do. God is totally other.

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I'm curious about your thoughts on the time Jesus was on earth - and if during this 30+ years things were different for him?

Yeah, I mean as a fully human person He experienced time. But He was also the Logos and became Man without change. We have a Paschal hymn that says "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Inexpressible".

So I am not sure how much we can affirmatively say about what Christ experienced or how He experienced it.

I mean He also wrestled with Jacob and ate with Abraham, and appeared to the prophets.

Yeah. It's just an interesting thing to think about. I've never really given it much thought before. Thanks!

Zobel said:

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No. If time affects God, then He is subject to it, and is a creation. God is outside of time the same way He is outside of space. Before and after are how things are experienced by humans. God acts, and we experience it in time. Before and after are from our perspective.

God doesn't "know" things the way we know them either. So it's not fruitful to talk about God's knowledge of things in human terms. He doesn't experience things as we do. God is totally other.

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To add to this, if God ceased to think of us we would cease to exist.

Zobel said:

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Yeah, I mean as a fully human person He experienced time. But He was also the Logos and became Man without change. We have a Paschal hymn that says "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Inexpressible".

So I am not sure how much we can affirmatively say about what Christ experienced or how He experienced it.

I mean He also wrestled with Jacob and ate with Abraham, and appeared to the prophets.

---

This is a beautiful, if not divinely inspired post.

I've often thought about this question. I lean towards yes

I tend to think of time similarly to light. Can God experience light? Well He's the source of light. I believe God is equally the source of time.

It's not a coincidence we get our earthly light and time from the sun(Son).

And in the end when God dwells with man on earth He is the source of light and time will be eternity because both His light and time are everlasting compared to our current sun.

I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

---

For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses. I am very leery of any theology that has to add words to make their theology work.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

---

For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

---

God also desires that we love him and authentic love requires the ability to reject God's free offer of grace.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

---

For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

---

God also desires that we love him and authentic love requires the ability to reject God's free offer of grace.

---

I hear you and waver back and forth on that. And I am okay with that. I am not okay with theology that says God's grace is not extended to all men.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering - since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

---

For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

---

God also desires that we love him and authentic love requires the ability to reject God's free offer of grace.

---

I hear you and waver back and forth on that. And I am okay with that. I am not okay with theology that says God's grace is not extended to all men.

---

Agreed.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering - since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

---

A little research has shown that those verses do not mean what has been taught by some theologians.

First of all, no humans are the devil or his angels.

Secondly, the Greek word translated as eternal is aionios, which is generally translated as of an age. Not eternity.

Thirdly the Greek word translated as punishment interestingly enough is kolasis, which generally means pruning or rehabilitative chastisement. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment which is what ECT proponents believe.

Fourth, eternal destruction does not mean eternal conscious torment. It means destruction.

Fifth, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning so eternal did not mean eternal.

Sixth, not sure exactly who Jude is talking about here. Utter darkness is not ECT. I will have to lookup what Greek work is used for the translation of forever.

And I am not trying to change your mind. Just stating what Scripture actually says.

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

---

For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses. I am very leery of any theology that has to add words to make their theology work.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

---

Are you saying that non-believers will be saved?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering - since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

---

A little research has shown that those verses do not mean what has been taught by some theologians.

First of all, no humans are the devil or his angels.

Secondly, the Greek word translated as eternal is aionios, which is generally translated as of an age. Not eternity.

Thirdly the Greek word translated as punishment interestingly enough is kolasis, which generally means pruning or rehabilitative chastisement. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment which is what ECT proponents believe.

Fourth, eternal destruction does not mean eternal conscious torment. It means destruction.

Fifth, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning so eternal did not mean eternal.

Sixth, not sure exactly who Jude is talking about here. Utter darkness is not ECT. I will have to lookup what Greek work is used for the translation of forever.

And I am not trying to change your mind. Just stating what Scripture actually says.

---

Generally speaking, the age after judgement is referred to as 'the age that has no end'. So it could still be fitting that the age of post judgement punishment is unending as well as an age. It is in line with returning the world back to the garden where the seventh day, the day of rest, has no end. So the last age has finality to it as well as an infinite component that is outside of time.

Sodom and Gomorrah's eternal fire isn't the same fire that rained down on them. The wicked caught up in God's judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah can be subject to spiritual fire.

John 3:36

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.'

Can you start obeying Jesus after you die? Paul never mentions that aspect of getting to heaven.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering - since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

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A little research has shown that those verses do not mean what has been taught by some theologians.

First of all, no humans are the devil or his angels.

Secondly, the Greek word translated as eternal is aionios, which is generally translated as of an age. Not eternity.

Thirdly the Greek word translated as punishment interestingly enough is kolasis, which generally means pruning or rehabilitative chastisement. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment which is what ECT proponents believe.

Fourth, eternal destruction does not mean eternal conscious torment. It means destruction.

Fifth, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning so eternal did not mean eternal.

Sixth, not sure exactly who Jude is talking about here. Utter darkness is not ECT. I will have to lookup what Greek work is used for the translation of forever.

And I am not trying to change your mind. Just stating what Scripture actually says.

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Won't dive in too deep, but point of contention with the anionios: this is the same word used to describe the enteral life with God for believers, yes?

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering - since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

---

A little research has shown that those verses do not mean what has been taught by some theologians.

First of all, no humans are the devil or his angels.

Secondly, the Greek word translated as eternal is aionios, which is generally translated as of an age. Not eternity.

Thirdly the Greek word translated as punishment interestingly enough is kolasis, which generally means pruning or rehabilitative chastisement. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment which is what ECT proponents believe.

Fourth, eternal destruction does not mean eternal conscious torment. It means destruction.

Fifth, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning so eternal did not mean eternal.

Sixth, not sure exactly who Jude is talking about here. Utter darkness is not ECT. I will have to lookup what Greek work is used for the translation of forever.

And I am not trying to change your mind. Just stating what Scripture actually says.

---

Won't dive in too deep, but point of contention with the anionios: this is the same word used to describe the enteral life with God for believers, yes?

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Yes it is. First of all, the parable of the sheep and goats is about nations, not individuals. And there is no mention about belief or faith. It is all about good and evil deeds.