While discussing faith and works with a reformed friend of mine, I was struck by a lesson that I hadn't picked up in the gospel of Matthew.

Everyone knows that in the gospel of Matthew Judas betrays Christ for 30 pieces of silver, and then afterwards feels remorse and ends up hanging himself in his grief.

We also know from other scripture that Judas is extremely likely to be in hell, at least as much as we can say about any human.

How do Protestants square the knowledge that Judas "believed" in Christ, and even felt remorse for his actions, yet still went to damnation?

As a Catholic it seems like the perfect example of the difference between remorse and repentance. Whereas St.Dismas realized the error of his ways, and turns towards Christ confessing his iniquity, Judas merely feels bad, and rather than using it as an opportunity for improvement, kills himself instead.

I think this is a great example of James' "faith without works is dead". Remorse- faith without works.

Quo Vadis? said:

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While discussing faith and works with a reformed friend of mine, I was struck by a lesson that I hadn't picked up in the gospel of Matthew.

Everyone knows that in the gospel of Matthew Judas betrays Christ for 30 pieces of silver, and then afterwards feels remorse and ends up hanging himself in his grief.

We also know from other scripture that Judas is extremely likely to be in hell, at least as much as we can say about any human.

How do Protestants square the knowledge that Judas "believed" in Christ, and even felt remorse for his actions, yet still went to damnation?

As a Catholic it seems like the perfect example of the difference between remorse and repentance. Whereas St.Dismas realized the error of his ways, and turns towards Christ confessing his iniquity, Judas merely feels bad, and rather than using it as an opportunity for improvement, kills himself instead.

I think this is a great example of James' "faith without works is dead". Remorse- faith without works.

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Not sure I'm seeing the difference between Catholic and Protestant belief on this one. He was remorseful but not repentant. He didn't have true saving faith and was not redeemed.

If you've never noticed it or heard it before, U2's "Until The End of the World" is told from Judas' view. Really great lines in that song.
"You were talking about the end of the world"
"You were acting like it was the end of the world"
"I reached out to the one I tried to destroy but you said wait..till the end of the world"

What do you mean when you say Judas "believed in Christ"?

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
James 2:19

Judas was a vessel of wrath.

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
John 6:70

10andBOUNCE said:

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What do you mean when you say Judas "believed in Christ"?

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
James 2:19

Judas was a vessel of wrath.

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
John 6:70

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Many of the Protestants I've spoken with believe that "belief in Christ" is the only prerequisite needed for salvation, due to John 5:13, despite all the other verses in the Bible to the contrary.

Where do we find Judas having "belief" or saving faith in Christ?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Where do we find Judas having "belief" or saving faith in Christ?

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His remorse at what he'd done, it drove him to suicide.

A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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1. Based on how exorcists talk, demons need to be invited in or at least given some sort of opening. Spending too much time worrying about worldly things, grave sins, etc are all considered openings.
2. Great question. I think free will working with God's plan is generally Him just knowing what you're already going to do and working with it. It's still your choice to do the good or bad. The question that then arises is: why did God pick someone He knew would be the type of person to betray Him? Did He need a betrayer? Couldn't He have just pissed the Sanhedrin off enough that they didn't need Judas's help? It's not something I think we'll ever get an answer to

QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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I lean towards the thomistic predetermination understanding that God knows what we will do, due to his position outside of time, out of our own God given free will. Extrapolating that to Judas, Judas had every ability NOT to betray Jesus, but decided to for a myriad of different reasons.

Catholicism teaches that demons for the most part cannot merely hijack you and make you do their will, so Judas must have been a willing puppet.

2 Cor. 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

I would say that we also don't know the target of Judas' remorse. He was a fanatical, nationalist Jew. He expected the Messiah to reform the nation of Israel and then rule the world from there. I've read interesting speculation that Judas wasn't trying to get Jesus killed. He was only trying to make Jesus snap out of his submissive stance and start reconquering Israel by forcing the issue. Not sure if true, but it certainly humanizes the man.

Regardless, he may have committed suicide when his dream of a renewed, conquering Israel was dashed, and not due to any repentance for betraying Jesus specifically. He may have just been completely unable to live with the fact that Israel would be subjugated for his entire life with no end in sight

The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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2. Great question. I think free will working with God's plan is generally Him just knowing what you're already going to do and working with it. It's still your choice to do the good or bad. The question that then arises is: why did God pick someone He knew would be the type of person to betray Him? Did He need a betrayer? Couldn't He have just pissed the Sanhedrin off enough that they didn't need Judas's help? It's not something I think we'll ever get an answer to

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This is what still blows my mind. We have Free Will, yet God knows what we are going to choose, hence pre-destined. So, is it really Free Will?

I'm just so amazed by the fullness of our God

QBCade said:

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The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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2. Great question. I think free will working with God's plan is generally Him just knowing what you're already going to do and working with it. It's still your choice to do the good or bad. The question that then arises is: why did God pick someone He knew would be the type of person to betray Him? Did He need a betrayer? Couldn't He have just pissed the Sanhedrin off enough that they didn't need Judas's help? It's not something I think we'll ever get an answer to

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This is what still blows my mind. We have Free Will, yet God knows what we are going to choose, hence pre-destined. So, is it really Free Will?

I'm just so amazed by the fullness of our God

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"Destined". What does that mean? Does that mean we have a predetermined end and there is nothing we can do about it?

Maybe the better phrased is "foreknown". God's knowledge of future choices does not mean He set them in stone for us. We could have chosen different today. We can choose different tomorrow. The fact that God knows what our choices will be does not mean they are not/will not be our choices to make.

Quo Vadis? said:

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We also know from other scripture that Judas is extremely likely to be in hell, at least as much as we can say about any human.

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What is your basis for this?

BusterAg said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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We also know from other scripture that Judas is extremely likely to be in hell, at least as much as we can say about any human.

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What is your basis for this?

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The fact he referred to as "the son of perdition" and it is said "would have been better had he not been born"

The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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2. Great question. I think free will working with God's plan is generally Him just knowing what you're already going to do and working with it. It's still your choice to do the good or bad. The question that then arises is: why did God pick someone He knew would be the type of person to betray Him? Did He need a betrayer? Couldn't He have just pissed the Sanhedrin off enough that they didn't need Judas's help? It's not something I think we'll ever get an answer to

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This is what still blows my mind. We have Free Will, yet God knows what we are going to choose, hence pre-destined. So, is it really Free Will?

I'm just so amazed by the fullness of our God

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"Destined". What does that mean? Does that mean we have a predetermined end and there is nothing we can do about it?

Maybe the better phrased is "foreknown". God's knowledge of future choices does not mean He set them in stone for us. We could have chosen different today. We can choose different tomorrow. The fact that God knows what our choices will be does not mean they are not/will not be our choices to make.

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Good point. Is it foreknown or pre-destined. Is our free will really just a mirage and we just make the choice we were going to always make? Or, are all our choices free will and God knows the end to each one? Wild

QBCade said:

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The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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The Banned said:

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QBCade said:

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A few thoughts

1. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas. So, should Judas be blamed? Or, did he invite Satan in?
2. If Judas' role was to betray Jesus which led him to ultimately being sacrificed and therefore completing Jesus' works and saving us, should he be in hell? Was this Free Will or his destiny?

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2. Great question. I think free will working with God's plan is generally Him just knowing what you're already going to do and working with it. It's still your choice to do the good or bad. The question that then arises is: why did God pick someone He knew would be the type of person to betray Him? Did He need a betrayer? Couldn't He have just pissed the Sanhedrin off enough that they didn't need Judas's help? It's not something I think we'll ever get an answer to

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This is what still blows my mind. We have Free Will, yet God knows what we are going to choose, hence pre-destined. So, is it really Free Will?

I'm just so amazed by the fullness of our God

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"Destined". What does that mean? Does that mean we have a predetermined end and there is nothing we can do about it?

Maybe the better phrased is "foreknown". God's knowledge of future choices does not mean He set them in stone for us. We could have chosen different today. We can choose different tomorrow. The fact that God knows what our choices will be does not mean they are not/will not be our choices to make.

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Good point. Is it foreknown or pre-destined. Is our free will really just a mirage and we just make the choice we were going to always make? Or, are all our choices free will and God knows the end to each one? Wild

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I will simply say this: if free will is not true, then God has gone to great lengths to create a world that offers the illusion of free will. In my opinion, if free will is not true, creating the illusion of choice is the most evil thing I can possibly imagine.

Quo Vadis? said:

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BusterAg said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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We also know from other scripture that Judas is extremely likely to be in hell, at least as much as we can say about any human.

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What is your basis for this?

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The fact he referred to as "the son of perdition" and it is said "would have been better had he not been born"

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Jesus once told a cripple that his sins were forgiven. I believe that this mans sins were forgiven at that very moment, because Jesus has the authority to forgive sins.

I am glad that is his job, and not mine.

The reality is that God is different in that he is the perfect subjective. He is not limited to an objective set of standards, because he is the definition of holy. Kierkegaard described this as the infinite qualitative difference between God and man. God cannot be understood by a set of objective standards or rational analysis.

I hesitate to assume any man will be eternally damned, even Judas. That's just not my job. My job is to learn what Jesus has taught me and put it into practice to avoid hell (on earth and eternally).

There are some things we do not know. One of them is who (humans) is in hell.

Hmm need to check out that U2 song. Thx.

Also, the 1970's musical, Jesus Christ Superstar is also taken from Judas' point of view. Actually a very good dialogue between Jesus and Judas. The other apostles are kind of bumbling characters. Mary Madeline is a good sketch of a character as she wrestles with her faith in Jesus. I give it two thumbs up!