And it mirrors my thoughts.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

dermdoc said:

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And it mirrors my thoughts.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

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Interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

Why is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory so difficult to accept?

PabloSerna said:

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Why is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory so difficult to accept?

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I think it is a possibility. It dovetails with my thoughts that punishment is rehabilitating not punitive.

The truth is no one knows and Jesus talked little about heaven or hell. His focus was on how to live this life. The Kingdom of God is here now.

Author claims he belongs to the Orthodox Church. Do you agree, Zobel?

yeah. seems pretty typical as a summary of Orthodox teaching on it.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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prolly because material hellfire is a false teaching

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Agree. That was started almost solely by Augustine, put on steroids by Dante, and amplified by Calvin who showed what he believed God's character was by burning poor Servatus at the stake. Does not seem very Christ like to me.

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I agree that we can't be certain of what hell is, but to say Augustine came up with ect hell is patently false. It was the belief of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Tertullian and Irenaeus among others.

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Here is a link discussing your post. I agree there were Church fathers before Augustine who talked of ECT hell, but Augustine was by far the biggest influence on the concept of ECT hell. Especially in the Western church.

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

Quote:

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SUMMARY
Neither heaven nor hell are created places. In the end, we will all experience the presence of God. Whether or not we enjoy that presence depends on the condition of our hearts.

God is loving and wants all to be saved, and is working in every person's life to bring them to at least turn toward Him in whatever way we are capable. But if we ignore Him, if we bury our treasure (heart) in the ground (that is in worldly pursuits and passions) then when we encounter Him we will not know Him, and in some sense, He will not know us because His image of love will not be reflecting within us.

I truly believe that God loves all of us and is reaching out in some way to everyone right now. He is more than willing to accept even the smallest acts of love and repentance. So, let's run into the embrace of our loving Father!

---

I don't really understand what this means, specifically the bold.

I like how JC Ryle puts it in his chapter on holiness.

Suppose for a moment, that you were allowed to enter Heaven without holiness. What would you do? What possible enjoyment could you feel there? To which of all the saints would you join yourself, and by whose side would you sit down? Their pleasures are not your pleasures, their tastes not your tastes, their character not your character. How could you possibly be happy, if you had not been holy on earth?

https://www.gracegems.org/Ryle/holiness4.htm

Most people think they want to go to heaven, but I don't think they would enjoy it.

But what about Ephesians 4:9? Seems as Paul was speaking of physical locations.

Acts 1:6-11 (Jesus went from one place to another)
The Ascension
So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Psalm 11:4 (Heaven is the place of God's throne)
The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.

Philippians 1:23 (Heaven is where the souls of believers go when they die)
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Revelation 21:1-5
The New Heaven and the New Earth (Heaven will not last forever, united to Earth forever)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

10andBOUNCE said:

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Acts 1:6-11 (Jesus went from one place to another)
The Ascension
So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Psalm 11:4 (Heaven is the place of God's throne)
The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.

Philippians 1:23 (Heaven is where the souls of believers go when they die)
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Revelation 21:1-5
The New Heaven and the New Earth (Heaven will not last forever, united to Earth forever)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

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Where does it say that all people do not end up in the presence of God?

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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prolly because material hellfire is a false teaching

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Agree. That was started almost solely by Augustine, put on steroids by Dante, and amplified by Calvin who showed what he believed God's character was by burning poor Servatus at the stake. Does not seem very Christ like to me.

---

I agree that we can't be certain of what hell is, but to say Augustine came up with ect hell is patently false. It was the belief of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Tertullian and Irenaeus among others.

---

Here is a link discussing your post. I agree there were Church fathers before Augustine who talked of ECT hell, but Augustine was by far the biggest influence on the concept of ECT hell. Especially in the Western church.

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

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Quote:

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This was almost a systematic case for eternal torment, and due to its length (compared with anything that had come before) and Augustine's major influence, it became the standard. It took some time for dissenters to again be heard with any significant volume against this backdrop.

But prior to Augustine, this was not the case. Yes, a number of Christians believed what is now the traditional doctrine of hell (although most modern believers would take issue with their literalness when it came to the fires). Many did not make their thoughts clearly known one way or the other.

---

Thank you for the article. From what I gathered, the author is saying that Augustine was the first to articulate a full defense of ECT hell in response to those teaching annihilationism. But he was simply defending what was the predominate view. The early church fathers may have not agreed entirely with the picture Augustine paints, but some sort of eternal punishment involving some sort of fire was the consensus.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

You think God occupies a physical space?

We all will be in the presence of God at least briefly to give an account.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Matthew 25:41-46
English Standard Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The goats will depart from Jesus. He never knew them.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Zobel said:

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You think God occupies a physical space?

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Jesus is still truly God, truly man

How that works in Heaven? I don't know.

Jesus is not the Father. We believe in one God, the Father almighty.

So… you think God is "somewhere"?

Zobel said:

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Jesus is not the Father. We believe in one God, the Father almighty.

So… you think God is "somewhere"?

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I have no idea how it works, but the Godhead is together in communion, somewhere.

Jesus, fully man and fully God, sitting at the right hand of God? It is beyond me and I am okay with that. I will let ya know when I get there.

10andBOUNCE said:

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We all will be in the presence of God at least briefly to give an account.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Matthew 25:41-46
English Standard Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The goats will depart from Jesus. He never knew them.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

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You know Jesus was talking about nations in Matthew 25? Right before what you posted that is clearly said.

And depart from me now does not imply ECT hell.

And I agree we all have to give an account to God. That verse says nothing about ECT hell. Judgement may be a good or even great thing. We do know from Scripture God is perfectly just, is love, and full of mercy.

Zobel said:

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Jesus is not the Father. We believe in one God, the Father almighty.

So… you think God is "somewhere"?

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God is everywhere. Omnipresent.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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Jesus is not the Father. We believe in one God, the Father almighty.

So… you think God is "somewhere"?

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God is everywhere. Omnipresent.

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Something we cannot even begin to comprehend.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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Jesus is not the Father. We believe in one God, the Father almighty.

So… you think God is "somewhere"?

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God is everywhere. Omnipresent.

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Something we cannot even begin to comprehend.

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No but we can believe it.

Thanks for sharing that Derm. Really enjoyed it. I agree with it.

The only thing the Catholic Church formally teaches about what we call Purgatory is that it exists. There is no detailed teaching on what or how long it will be. I honestly believe that all Christians believe in Purgatory whether they realizer it or not because when pressed, all Christians will admit that nothing unholy can be in God's presence. If Luther is right and we're all dung heaps covered in the righteousness of Christ's snow, then there will have to be a cleaning up process before we can enter into our eternal fate. It's like spiritual physics or something. The Catholic Church just calls that Purgatory. It's the process or means by which we are purified of disordered attachments (vestiges of sin) that we still have even though we die in God's friendship. Once we are freed from those attachments (made holy), we will enter into eternal bliss and eventually have the beatific vision for eternity.

Purgatory or the purification process or whatever you call it will be "painful" for the reasons so eloquently described in the article.

"For the older brother, the Father's perfect love was painful because it was incompatible with the impurity within his heart."

Eventually we will be rightly ordered and ready to enter into eternity with our Creator.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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prolly because material hellfire is a false teaching

---

Agree. That was started almost solely by Augustine, put on steroids by Dante, and amplified by Calvin who showed what he believed God's character was by burning poor Servatus at the stake. Does not seem very Christ like to me.

---

I agree that we can't be certain of what hell is, but to say Augustine came up with ect hell is patently false. It was the belief of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Tertullian and Irenaeus among others.

---

Here is a link discussing your post. I agree there were Church fathers before Augustine who talked of ECT hell, but Augustine was by far the biggest influence on the concept of ECT hell. Especially in the Western church.

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

---

Quote:

---

This was almost a systematic case for eternal torment, and due to its length (compared with anything that had come before) and Augustine's major influence, it became the standard. It took some time for dissenters to again be heard with any significant volume against this backdrop.

But prior to Augustine, this was not the case. Yes, a number of Christians believed what is now the traditional doctrine of hell (although most modern believers would take issue with their literalness when it came to the fires). Many did not make their thoughts clearly known one way or the other.

---

Thank you for the article. From what I gathered, the author is saying that Augustine was the first to articulate a full defense of ECT hell in response to those teaching annihilationism. But he was simply defending what was the predominate view. The early church fathers may have not agreed entirely with the picture Augustine paints, but some sort of eternal punishment involving some sort of fire was the consensus.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

---

Do not disagree. I think the fire will be a refining fire like Paul described where everything not in the Divine nature is burned away but the person is still saved.

I think the pain comes from remorse and sadness when we realize how we have fallen short. And also pain at completely losing our human pride and sin nature. Then we can be glorified and acceptable to God.

I believe it is ontological not judicial.

Jesus taught in parables. The teaching about the Rich Man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) is insightful to understanding what it will be like after we die.

Jesus mentions Hades (Greek), which the RCC understands as the realm of the dead (CCC 633) also called Sheol (Hebrew). We profess this in our creed, when we say, "he descended into hell". This is a place, maybe not a physical place, but somewhere where the beatific vision of God awaits, whether righteous or evil.

It is clear in this parable that after death, Lazarus enjoys a more favorable place than the rich man who was tormented. Both await the second coming of Christ.

The RCC states that Purgatory (CCC 1030) is a final purification before the final judgement in order to make atonement for sins forgiven. A temporal punishment.

What this all actually looks like, Jesus tries to explain with that parable. Worth reading very closely.

ETA: forgiveness is one thing, temporal punishment is another. Explained to me this way; when I hit a baseball through my neighbors window, I need to ask for forgiveness and make amends that may involve me cutting their grass for a year.

As per your last paragraph, I agree.

All I can say is "Have mercy Lord".

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

prolly because material hellfire is a false teaching

---

Agree. That was started almost solely by Augustine, put on steroids by Dante, and amplified by Calvin who showed what he believed God's character was by burning poor Servatus at the stake. Does not seem very Christ like to me.

---

I agree that we can't be certain of what hell is, but to say Augustine came up with ect hell is patently false. It was the belief of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Tertullian and Irenaeus among others.

---

Here is a link discussing your post. I agree there were Church fathers before Augustine who talked of ECT hell, but Augustine was by far the biggest influence on the concept of ECT hell. Especially in the Western church.

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

---

Quote:

---

This was almost a systematic case for eternal torment, and due to its length (compared with anything that had come before) and Augustine's major influence, it became the standard. It took some time for dissenters to again be heard with any significant volume against this backdrop.

But prior to Augustine, this was not the case. Yes, a number of Christians believed what is now the traditional doctrine of hell (although most modern believers would take issue with their literalness when it came to the fires). Many did not make their thoughts clearly known one way or the other.

---

Thank you for the article. From what I gathered, the author is saying that Augustine was the first to articulate a full defense of ECT hell in response to those teaching annihilationism. But he was simply defending what was the predominate view. The early church fathers may have not agreed entirely with the picture Augustine paints, but some sort of eternal punishment involving some sort of fire was the consensus.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

---

Do not disagree. I think the fire will be a refining fire like Paul described where everything not in the Divine nature is burned away but the person is still saved.

I think the pain comes from remorse and sadness when we realize how we have fallen short. And also pain at completely losing our human pride and sin nature. Then we can be glorified and acceptable to God.

I believe it is ontological not judicial.

---

And this is a process we will all go through to some degree postmortem? Believers and non-believers alike?

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

prolly because material hellfire is a false teaching

---

Agree. That was started almost solely by Augustine, put on steroids by Dante, and amplified by Calvin who showed what he believed God's character was by burning poor Servatus at the stake. Does not seem very Christ like to me.

---

I agree that we can't be certain of what hell is, but to say Augustine came up with ect hell is patently false. It was the belief of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Tertullian and Irenaeus among others.

---

Here is a link discussing your post. I agree there were Church fathers before Augustine who talked of ECT hell, but Augustine was by far the biggest influence on the concept of ECT hell. Especially in the Western church.

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

---

Quote:

---

This was almost a systematic case for eternal torment, and due to its length (compared with anything that had come before) and Augustine's major influence, it became the standard. It took some time for dissenters to again be heard with any significant volume against this backdrop.

But prior to Augustine, this was not the case. Yes, a number of Christians believed what is now the traditional doctrine of hell (although most modern believers would take issue with their literalness when it came to the fires). Many did not make their thoughts clearly known one way or the other.

---

Thank you for the article. From what I gathered, the author is saying that Augustine was the first to articulate a full defense of ECT hell in response to those teaching annihilationism. But he was simply defending what was the predominate view. The early church fathers may have not agreed entirely with the picture Augustine paints, but some sort of eternal punishment involving some sort of fire was the consensus.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

---

Do not disagree. I think the fire will be a refining fire like Paul described where everything not in the Divine nature is burned away but the person is still saved.

I think the pain comes from remorse and sadness when we realize how we have fallen short. And also pain at completely losing our human pride and sin nature. Then we can be glorified and acceptable to God.

I believe it is ontological not judicial.

---

And this is a process we will all go through to some degree postmortem? Believers and non-believers alike?

---

I am not sure. And neither is anyone else. Paul seems to indicate it.

We (RCC) believe so, yes. The good news is that after some degree of purification we will go to heaven.

Thanks so much for sharing this

I don't think we should understand the Father as having place-location. "Somewhere" implies "sometime" because for us place and time are fundamentally linked. Since we know God is not subject to time, He also cannot be subject to place as we understand it. It's a kind of figurative language. Heaven is not a physical place, it's not somewhere you can navigate to.

Zobel said:

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I don't think we should understand the Father as having place-location. "Somewhere" implies "sometime" because for us place and time are fundamentally linked. Since we know God is not subject to time, He also cannot be subject to place as we understand it. It's a kind of figurative language. Heaven is not a physical place, it's not somewhere you can navigate to.

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Agreed. Seems more fitting to say "somehow" rather than somewhere.