"Pablo, I think what you're missing in this instance is context from the other side of the argument."

Am I?

You make a compelling argument that we have a broken immigration system which I agree with you 100%. However, I fail to see how so many immigrants have wrecked our economy? In fact, I had to look it up- we still have the largest economy in the world with a higher GDP than China. Our failed immigration policies have some how worked out to big bucks!

Don't confuse my argument for a personal attack on you or what you are doing. This is an us conversation, as in USA. Both you and the others quickly turn this into a personal attack and this a bigger picture discussion.

Since this is a Religious & Philosophy forum, I defer back to scriptures for my reasoning that we in fact are stewards of all that God has bestowed on our country. With that comes a responsibility to share these gifts with other less fortunate. Jesus had a better way of saying this (Lk 12:16-21)

16 And he told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; 17 and he thought to himself, 'What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' 18 And he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

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This passage is a case in point that we don't even own our lives. God gives us everything and while prudence is important, we cannot ignore the stranger in our land. I go back to that this is a "both/and" solution. We need to secure our borders from the dangers AND provide a safe refuge for those in need.

Zobel said:

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However, I fail to see how so many immigrants have wrecked our economy? In fact, I had to look it up- we still have the largest economy in the world with a higher GDP than China. Our failed immigration policies have some how worked out to big bucks!

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you are an unserious person with an unserious approach.

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30 years in the construction industry. I am very serious when I say that our broken immigration system has not destroyed our economy.

What are you really afraid of?

That whole article, which I read in full, is based on the premise of "illegal" entry. Says nothing of persons living here that are documented and going through the process of becoming citizens. Which the new EO has ended and renders those individuals illegal after April. Same with the EO terminating humanitarian programs aimed at assisting migrants seeking asylum to legally enter and work in the USA.

On a related note, Cardinal Ratcliffe, in his summation of the recent Synod of Synodality, said the greatest obstacle to the church is the clergy themselves. This echos Pope Paul VI's "smoke of Satan" warning post Vatican II and what I see as a direct link back to the Pharisee's rejection of Christ.

Maybe it's true that some things never change?

PabloSerna said:

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That whole article, which I read in full, is based on the premise of "illegal" entry. Says nothing of persons living here that are documented and going through the process of becoming citizens. Which the new EO has ended and renders those individuals illegal after April. Same with the EO terminating humanitarian programs aimed at assisting migrants seeking asylum to legally enter and work in the USA.

On a related note, Cardinal Ratcliffe, in his summation of the recent Synod of Synodality, said the greatest obstacle to the church is the clergy themselves. This echos Pope Paul VI's "smoke of Satan" warning post Vatican II and what I see as a direct link back to the Pharisee's rejection of Christ.

Maybe it's true that some things never change?

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We don't agree most of the time, but on this I think it is worth talking about whether individuals who have tried to follow the rules should be part of the group targeted for deportation. IDK but suspect what is happening here is that the Trump Admin wants to do their own evaluation of the legitimacy of the asylum claims.

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

You don't have to post again in response to this. There is literally nothing you can say that will make the situation above not bizarre.

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You can call it "bizarre" all you want. Jus soli was seen as the more humane and democratic approach to citizenship as befitting a great representative republic. It was the intended consequence of the amendment.

Also, "squat out." So much human dignity from certain kinds of Catholics, I've noted.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

This is the best, most balanced take on this that I have seen.

Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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I like how you ignored the point.

Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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Apologies, I'm not sure that I understand. Referring to childbirth as squatting out a child is not strange because life begins at conception?

kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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Apologies, I'm not sure that I understand. Referring to childbirth as squatting out a child is not strange because life begins at conception?

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I forgive you.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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I like how you ignored the point.

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I like how you waltz right past my point about the blatant lying that was done in order to make the Hart Cellers act palatable, and made your last stand on "dirt confers citizenship".

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Yes, in America, birth in the United States confers citizenship. Because we are not intended to be a racist ****hole.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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This is the best, most balanced take on this that I have seen.

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I agree.

Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

---

This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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I like how you ignored the point.

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I like how you waltz right past my point about the blatant lying that was done in order to make the Hart Cellers act palatable, and made your last stand on "dirt confers citizenship".

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Yes, in America, birth in the United States confers citizenship. Because we are not intended to be a racist ****hole.

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Where do you get these enlightened ideas from, counselor? Our founding fathers were all white, many owned slaves, wanted to restrict citizenship to white men of good character, and even ole honest Abe was fine with freeing the slaves but preferred they settle in Panama or Liberia once free rather than integrating into US society.

Next you're going to read me some poem tacked on to the bottom of the Statue of Liberty

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

---

Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

---

This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Good news, life begins at conception.

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I like how you ignored the point.

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I like how you waltz right past my point about the blatant lying that was done in order to make the Hart Cellers act palatable, and made your last stand on "dirt confers citizenship".

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Yes, in America, birth in the United States confers citizenship. Because we are not intended to be a racist ****hole.

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Where do you get these enlightened ideas from, counselor? Our founding fathers were all white, many owned slaves, wanted to restrict citizenship to white men of good character, and even ole honest Abe was fine with freeing the slaves but preferred they settle in Panama or Liberia once free rather than integrating into US society.

Next you're going to read me some poem tacked on to the bottom of the Statue of Liberty

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Abe changed his mind after getting to know African Americans and understanding their plight. The fact that the framers were racist ****s is a demerit on their legacy, not a model to emulate. If you'd like, we can reflect on their opinions of Catholics. And they still went with Jus Soli. Our nation is better for bringing in everyone. Sorry, but your lily white fantasy world died in 1619, let alone in the 1960s.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Dehumanization is a necessary step to prejudice.

Zobel said:

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Quo is very clearly making claims about the ethnic/racial makeup of people and labeling immigrants after 1965 as somehow inferior.

Quo Vadis? said:

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PabloSerna said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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Or the bizarre interpretation of an amendment that was supposed to force Southern States to give citizenship to freed slaves that made babies of illegal migrants citizens?

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There's nothing bizarre about it. It was the intended interpretation and has been supported by the courts for as long as the amendment has been around.

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Absolutely bizarre that a pregnant woman can illegally enter the country and then squat out a child and that child becomes an American citizen.

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This feels like a strange way to speak about the miracle of birth / life.

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Dehumanization is a necessary step to prejudice.

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Oh they're definitely human, they're just not Americans. That's not a pejorative any more than saying I'm not Japanese.

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So why refer to them giving birth as "squatting out" kids? And the Constitution clearly says those kids ARE Americans.

Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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Quo is very clearly making claims about the ethnic/racial makeup of people and labeling immigrants after 1965 as somehow inferior.

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Were the immigrants before 1965 inferior? Or is everyone magically the same?

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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Quo is very clearly making claims about the ethnic/racial makeup of people and labeling immigrants after 1965 as somehow inferior.

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Were the immigrants before 1965 inferior? Or is everyone magically the same?

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Are you saying the immigrants after 1965 are inferior? Because that's what it sounds like. I tend to take people as individuals rather than pretend that their ancestry magically makes them unable to be good Americans.