"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

dermdoc said:

---

"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

---

I read a little more of the context of the message surrounding this excerpt.

If he were my pastor, I would need to ask for clarification because I don't know of any supporting text that speaks to how it will be for anyone the moment we enter the gates of hell. On the surface, it seems out of line.

FTR, I have not listened to much Paul Washer personally.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

---

I read a little more of the context of the message surrounding this excerpt.

If he were my pastor, I would need to ask for clarification because I don't know of any supporting text that speaks to how it will be for anyone the moment we enter the gates of hell. On the surface, it seems out of line.

FTR, I have not listened to much Paul Washer personally.

---

He is a Calvinist evangelist associated with John MacArthur and Grace Community church.

He has some other very inflammatory statements.

I find the idea of anyone applauding anyone made in God's image by God being pre ordained condemned to eternal torment. repulsive. And certainly not Scriptural.

Somehow I stumbled across his first quote I posted and it made me both angry and curious.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

But then how does that jive with Luke 2 10? The Gospel is not good news if you are not of the elect, correct?

I want to pick at this a bit more also.

A reformed person should not operate any differently than any other Christian. We are to boldly claim Christ and the power of the gospel to all people. This whole idea of election doesn't really come into play with any of that. Other than the idea that we need to approach the lost and fellow depraved individuals, I cannot think of another time in which I would even consider TULIP in a gospel presentation I was to make to someone.

Whether or not someone is elect as it relates to the reformed understanding is God's secret will. We don't TRULY know if anyone is written in the book of life. So again, we are to go to the ends of the earth and enter into the great commission to spread the good news.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I want to pick at this a bit more also.

A reformed person should not operate any differently than any other Christian. We are to boldly claim Christ and the power of the gospel to all people. This whole idea of election doesn't really come into play with any of that. Other than the idea that we need to approach the lost and fellow depraved individuals, I cannot think of another time in which I would even consider TULIP in a gospel presentation I was to make to someone.

Whether or not someone is elect as it relates to the reformed understanding is God's secret will. We don't TRULY know if anyone is written in the book of life. So again, we are to go to the ends of the earth and enter into the great commission to spread the good news.

---

Shouldn't the Scripture say that it is good news for the elect? Instead of all the people?

And I know my name and my families names are written in the book of life. The Spirit told me.
Very reassuring. Could not have true peace without knowing that.

dermdoc said:

---

Shouldn't the Scripture say that it is good news for the elect? Instead of all the people?

And I know my name and my families names are written in the book of life. The Spirit told me.
Very reassuring. Could not have true peace without knowing that.

---

The good news is for all people, but not all people will receive it as good news.

The spirit TOLD you that you AND your families' names are written in the book of life? Ummm...how?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Shouldn't the Scripture say that it is good news for the elect? Instead of all the people?

And I know my name and my families names are written in the book of life. The Spirit told me.
Very reassuring. Could not have true peace without knowing that.

---

The good news is for all people, but not all people will receive it as good news.

The spirit TOLD you that you AND your families' names are written in the book of life? Ummm...how?

---

Still, small voice. I hear it often.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Shouldn't the Scripture say that it is good news for the elect? Instead of all the people?

And I know my name and my families names are written in the book of life. The Spirit told me.
Very reassuring. Could not have true peace without knowing that.

---

The good news is for all people, but not all people will receive it as good news.

The spirit TOLD you that you AND your families' names are written in the book of life? Ummm...how?

---

Still, small voice. I hear it often.

---

And there are numerous Scriptural references where God talked to people. And Scripture says we are sealed with Holy Spirit when we believe. The Comforter.
But if they are pre ordained not to believe and intended for eternal torment, how is it good news?

dermdoc said:

---

"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

This is one of those instances where "world" doesn't mean world and "all" doesn't mean all. It's all the people of Israel.

In application, the chosen people of God. The people who know and believe they are a sinner in need of a Savior.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

This is one of those instances where "world" doesn't mean world and "all" doesn't mean all. It's all the people of Israel.

In application, the chosen people of God. The people who know and believe they are a sinner in need of a Savior.

---

Respectfully disagree. Why did the angels not say what you say they did?

It clearly says all the people. World is not mentioned, And even if that is just meant for the Jews, how can it be good news for those Jews who are already pre ordained to eternal torment?

Why are extra words needed to be added to support a theology?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

"The moment when you take your first steps through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That's how not good you are."

Are there any Scriptures to support this view?

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

This is one of those instances where "world" doesn't mean world and "all" doesn't mean all. It's all the people of Israel.

In application, the chosen people of God. The people who know and believe they are a sinner in need of a Savior.

---

Respectfully disagree. Why did the angels not say what you say they did?

It clearly says all the people. World is not mentioned, And even if that is just meant for the Jews, how can it be good news for those Jews who are already pre ordained to eternal torment?

Why are extra words needed to be added to support a theology?

---

I know world is not mentioned but it seemed that's what you were implying - all the people in the world.

It's not good news for those Jews, that's the point. It's good news for God's chosen people, those who recognize their need for a Savior and will be saved.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is predestined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

---

You're not understanding. We still need to come to salvation and the way in which the Lord has chosen to accomplish that task is through the means of His people sharing the gospel.

It's not worthwhile to say "but God could…" of course He could, He COULD do anything, but He has made it clear how He has chosen to do certain things, bringing His people to salvation through hearing the gospel by the means of using His people to share it, being one. People don't just go to bed one night not saved and wake up the next day saved without having heard the gospel in between.

I won't pretend to know the "why" but if I had to venture a guess, likely because the gospel isn't being shared and heard as it is in countries such as ours.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

---

You're not understanding. We still need to come to salvation and the way in which the Lord has chosen to accomplish that task is through the means of His people sharing the gospel.

It's not worthwhile to say "but God could…" of course He could, He COULD do anything, but He has made it clear how He has chosen to do certain things, bringing His people to salvation through hearing the gospel by the means of using His people to share it, being one. People don't just go to bed one night not saved and wake up the next day saved without having heard the gospel inbetween.

---

No I am understanding. I actually agree with what you posted. But that is not Calvinism or unconditional election.

Which is a good thing.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same and does not love unconditionally.

---

So no unconditional election?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same and does not love unconditionally.

---

So no unconditional election?

---

I edited out the unconditional part because (aside from my wording it poorly) it was not addressing your statement and this thread has already gone off topic.

But no, that's not what I meant.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same and does not love unconditionally.

---

So no unconditional election?

---

I edited out the unconditional part because (aside from my wording it poorly) it was not addressing your statement and this thread has already gone off topic.

But no, that's not what I meant.

---

With all due respect, this is the most important there is.

Does God loves everybody everyone He created? Simple question.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

So God has emotions like me?

Disagree.

And can anyone give me any Scriptural reference where there is anything like Paul Washer or Steve Lawson preached on about hell?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same and does not love unconditionally.

---

So no unconditional election?

---

I edited out the unconditional part because (aside from my wording it poorly) it was not addressing your statement and this thread has already gone off topic.

But no, that's not what I meant.

---

With all due respect, this is the most important there is.

Does God loves everybody everyone He created? Simple question.

---

Yes, but in different ways.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

Their theology/soteriology states differently.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?