dermdoc said:

---

And can anyone give me any Scriptural reference where there is anything like Paul Washer or Steve Lawson preached on about hell?

---

There's a difference in rejoicing in God's righteous judgment versus taking pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. I think Scripture supports the former, but that Washer quote can easily be taken as implying the latter. I'll say it is poorly worded at best.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children. And it means you believe God creates humans who have no chance and are pre ordained for eternal torment. Why create them?

What would you think of an earthly father who had five children and only loved and took care of two of them? And not only that, but condemned the other three children to eternal torment before they were born?

And it directly goes against Scripture that clearly states God desires all men to be saved and God is love.

God created the Canaanites but he did not consider them His people, he drove them out so His people, the Israelites, could occupy the land.

I don't fully know the implications of that and what it meant to the Canaanites at that time, but it is evidence that though we are all God's creation, we are not all His people.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children. And it means you believe God creates humans who have no chance and are pre ordained for eternal torment. Why create them?

What would you think of an earthly father who had five children and only loved and took care of two of them? And not only that, but condemned the other three children to eternal torment before they were born?

And it directly goes against Scripture that clearly states God desires all men to be saved and God is love.

---

Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe we've had this conversation before. There is much scripture about adoption and becoming a new creation.

Quote:

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children.

---

John 1:11-12: He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 8:42-44: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father 's desires.

1 John 3:1: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Romans 9:8: This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 4:4-6: But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children. And it means you believe God creates humans who have no chance and are pre ordained for eternal torment. Why create them?

What would you think of an earthly father who had five children and only loved and took care of two of them? And not only that, but condemned the other three children to eternal torment before they were born?

And it directly goes against Scripture that clearly states God desires all men to be saved and God is love.

---

Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe we've had this conversation before. There is much scripture about adoption and becoming a new creation.

---

I agree with that. But we agree God created all people and I believe He loves all of them unconditionally.

Each person has to agree to accept or reject the offer of grace. If you accept, you become an adopted child of God.

If there is no ability to choose, there is no love.

Why would God create people preordained to eternal torment? And somehow that gives God glory?

Hope one of those created and preordained for eternal torment are not my family or loved ones.

But since Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, I know that is not the case.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children. And it means you believe God creates humans who have no chance and are pre ordained for eternal torment. Why create them?

What would you think of an earthly father who had five children and only loved and took care of two of them? And not only that, but condemned the other three children to eternal torment before they were born?

And it directly goes against Scripture that clearly states God desires all men to be saved and God is love.

---

Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe we've had this conversation before. There is much scripture about adoption and becoming a new creation.

---

Why would God create people preordained to eternal torment? And somehow that gives God glory?

---

Job 38:2-7

[2] "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

[4] "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
[5] Who determined its measurementssurely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
[6] On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
[7] when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

gordo97 said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

He also says the Gospel is only good news for a needy man.

Seems to directly contradict Luke 2 10

And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

---

I think the point here is that we are all needy. If man wasn't "needy" the gospel would serve no purpose. We are all in "need' of saving grace. But hard to tell just based on a sentence.

---

Agree. All of us are needy.

But the Scripture does not say I bring good news for the elect. And if all men are needy as you say and the good news is for everybody but only works for the elect it does not make sense.

Total disconnect.

---

Yes, we are supposed to share the gospel with all people. Not selectively, but all. Salvation is God's work - I don't need to concern myself with whether or not someone is elect or not. Just share the gospel.

---

Fair enough. And I am all for evangelism.

My question is, if everything is ore destined with unconditional election, do you think our witness makes any difference?

---

Yes, because our sharing the gospel is the means in which God has chosen to save people. Does he NEED us? No. Did He decide to use us? Yes.

---

But they are already of the elect and saved or not saved, correct? Our efforts mean nothing as far as their salvation in your soteriology.

Any idea why there are so few elect in Muslim countries?

And I am curious as to what the Reformed/Calvinism presentation of the Gospel is.

---

I doubt it's any different than yours.

---

I agree. But it does not fit with your soteriology. My witness is consistent with my soteriology.

From my understanding, Reformed/Calvinists do not believe God loves everybody. And that is the key part of my presentation of the Gospel.

---

God does not love everyone the same.

---

So why does God create people He does not love the same as us? For eternal torment?

Reject that.

---

I can't have this discussion right now, I'm sorry. It's so plainly obvious to me that God does not love everyone in the same way, just as I know you do not love everyone the same. His children are loved differently than those who are not.

---

I love everyone "I created" the same, meaning all my children. Did God not create all of humanity? Did satan and his demons create some of those?

---

So by that logic, loving everything you created the same, God loves Satan and the demons the same as His saved children…

And you already know I do not believe every human is God's child.

---

So who created these humans who are not God's children?

---

God…what does that have to do with anything I've said?

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children. And it means you believe God creates humans who have no chance and are pre ordained for eternal torment. Why create them?

What would you think of an earthly father who had five children and only loved and took care of two of them? And not only that, but condemned the other three children to eternal torment before they were born?

And it directly goes against Scripture that clearly states God desires all men to be saved and God is love.

---

Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe we've had this conversation before. There is much scripture about adoption and becoming a new creation.

---

Why would God create people preordained to eternal torment? And somehow that gives God glory?

---

Job 38:2-7

[2] "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

[4] "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
[5] Who determined its measurementssurely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
[6] On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
[7] when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

---

I love Job. God can be sovereign and love too. God can do whatever He wants. And Scripture states He desires to save all men.

The best example we have of God's character is Jesus Christ.

31 "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. Luke 15:31-32


Celebration is when someone who has been lost is now found. It is not the other way around as the Pastor claims in the OP quote. This is directly from Christ; I'll take His word on the matter.

Agree with your note about Jesus as he is God in the flesh. Did Jesus unconditionally love those in whom he labeled a "brood of vipers"?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Agree with your note about Jesus as he is God in the flesh. Did Jesus unconditionally love those in whom he labeled a "brood of vipers"?

---

Yes. He told them that for their own good so they would repent. And His Father created them.

What would you think of a father who only loved some of his kids?

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

Quote:

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children.

---

John 1:11-12: He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 8:42-44: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father 's desires.

1 John 3:1: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Romans 9:8: This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 4:4-6: But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

---

None of those verses take away free will and our choice to accept or reject the Gospel.

And any admonition by Jesus is out of love to bring repentance.

Scripture says God is love and desires all men to be saved.

FIDO95 said:

---

31 "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. Luke 15:31-32


Celebration is when someone who has been lost is now found. It is not the other way around as the Pastor claims in the OP quote. This is directly from Christ; I'll take His word on the matter.

---

Amen. Never did Christ, Paul, Peter, etc. even hint at what Washer said. And after reading Steve Lawson on the same subject, this seems to be a recurrent theme among high profile Reformed/Calvinist pastors.

It makes me sick to my stomach.

dermdoc said:

---

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

Quote:

---

Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children.

---

John 1:11-12: He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 8:42-44: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father 's desires.

1 John 3:1: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Romans 9:8: This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 4:4-6: But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

---

None of those verses take away free will and our choice to accept or reject the Gospel.

And any admonition by Jesus is out of love to bring repentance.

Scripture says God is love and desires all men to be saved.

---

Agreed. I was only responding to the claim that everyone is a child of God by virtue of have been created by Him.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Quote:

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Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children.

---

John 1:11-12: He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 8:42-44: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father 's desires.

1 John 3:1: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Romans 9:8: This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 4:4-6: But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

---

None of those verses take away free will and our choice to accept or reject the Gospel.

And any admonition by Jesus is out of love to bring repentance.

Scripture says God is love and desires all men to be saved.

---

Agreed. I was only responding to the claim that everyone is a child of God by virtue of have been created by Him.

---

I understand what you are saying. But I do not believe God creates a person He does not love. Or creates them only for eternal torment.

Why do you even need the Gospel if everything has been predestined? Every person has a choice.

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

Quote:

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Well if God created them, I do not see they would not be considered His children.

---

John 1:11-12: He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 8:42-44: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father 's desires.

1 John 3:1: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Romans 9:8: This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 4:4-6: But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

---

None of those verses take away free will and our choice to accept or reject the Gospel.

And any admonition by Jesus is out of love to bring repentance.

Scripture says God is love and desires all men to be saved.

---

Agreed. I was only responding to the claim that everyone is a child of God by virtue of have been created by Him.

---

I understand what you are saying. But I do not believe God creates a person He does not love. Or creates them only for eternal torment.

Why do you even need the Gospel if everything has been predestined? Every person has a choice.

---

I do believe God loves everyone, but not everyone in the same way. There is a special love for His children. I think this is evident in the way He speaks about Israel as being His chosen people, or when Paul writes of loving our wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.

As to the second question, this has already been said but God uses certain means, primarily the preaching of the Word, to draw people to Himself. His sheep hear His voice.

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

Love thy neighbor as thyself, unless…

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I believe Luke 2 10 is about unconditional love and adoption. Almost every verse in the Bible restates the Gospel. Good news for all men.

And love is one of the Scripture stated fruits of the Spirit. Wrath is not.

And weird but when I was exposed to God's love, my desire to sin went almost completely away. When I was more legalistic and trying to do Lordship salvation, I wanted to sin all the time.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

---

Scripture is where the idea of the "chosen" and "elect" originates. If you're saved you are of the elect. Anyone can be of the elect, that is true.

Do you have a link?

lobopride said:

---

Do you have a link?

---

To what?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

---

Scripture is where the idea of the "chosen" and "elect" originates. If you're saved you are of the elect. Anyone can be of the elect, that is true.

---

Agree. How do you reconcile that theology with Scripture that states God wants all to be saved?

I do not believe elect means what Reformed/Calvinist theology does. I believe that anyone who chooses Jesus is of the elect and predestined to be saved.
Does God choose or elect certain people like Moses, Abraham, David, the apostles, etc.? Yes, of course.

I do not believe individual salvation is based on this.

dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

---

Do you have a link?

---

To what?

---

To Paul Washer's sermon or lecture or whatever it was.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

---

Scripture is where the idea of the "chosen" and "elect" originates. If you're saved you are of the elect. Anyone can be of the elect, that is true.

---

So are you saying we can choose to be in the "elect"

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

---

Scripture is where the idea of the "chosen" and "elect" originates. If you're saved you are of the elect. Anyone can be of the elect, that is true.

---

Agree. How do you reconcile that theology with Scripture that states God wants all to be saved?

I do n op t believe elect means what Reformed/Calvinist theology does. I believe that anyone who chooses Jesus is of the elect and predestined to be saved.

---

Yes, anyone who has faith in Jesus is saved and of the elect. I don't think any of us would disagree.

The how Gods chooses is where people differ.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I don't know how I went from commenting on Luke 2:10 to a conversation about unconditional love and adoption - these threads always have so many offshoots shoots, haha!

I think we have to be careful when we say God loves us unconditionally. While true, it requires some clarification or we risk people believing they can remain in their sin. God has a benevolent and merciful love for us all but only faith will allow us to enjoy the benefit of His saving covenant love and bring us into God's family as His children by adoption through His son. We can't earn it, it's given freely, but we must accept it. There is very clearly a scriptural difference between people who are in His family and those who are not.

We need to be careful to not focus only on God's love in a way that it makes people feel they don't need a savior. People must understand their offense to God, that they are sinners in need of a savior. That's what I think is meant by the gospel is only good news for the needy. If you don't know or think you need Jesus, well then…And in that way, it's only good news to God's chosen people.

---

I did not really realize I needed a Savior until I experienced God's love. Even anfter being a professing and very active Christian. And I have found that once I experienced God's love, I have been much more open with my witness. We pray at least 5-10 times a day with patients. Even my Jewish patients request prayers. And have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in my waiting room. Never had that before.

I never did that when I was trying to believe Reformed/Calvinist theology. And I was much more legalistic and judgmental.

One of my problems with Reformed/Calvinist theology is it always seems to look for ways to be exclusive. The chosen vs the non chosen. The elect vs the non elect.

I think Jesus came to remove that exclusion and open up God to all.

---

Scripture is where the idea of the "chosen" and "elect" originates. If you're saved you are of the elect. Anyone can be of the elect, that is true.

---

Agree. How do you reconcile that theology with Scripture that states God wants all to be saved?

I do n op t believe elect means what Reformed/Calvinist theology does. I believe that anyone who chooses Jesus is of the elect and predestined to be saved.

---

Yes, anyone who has faith in Jesus is saved and of the elect. I don't think any of us would disagree.

The how Gods chooses is where people differ.

---

Agree.

lobopride said:

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dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

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Do you have a link?

---

To what?

---

To Paul Washer's sermon or lecture or whatever it was.

---

Just google Paul Washer's quotes on hell. Numerous links including full sermons.

And if anyone can find any sermons in the NT that are similar or echo this theology, please inform me. Where did this theology come from?

It is hard to respond without knowing the full context, but I will say few living people have sacrificed more for spreading the Gospel than Paul Washer has.

If he's an example of what Calvinism does to someone's orthopraxy then sign me up.

lobopride said:

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It is hard to respond without knowing the full context, but I will say few living people have sacrificed more for spreading the Gospel than Paul Washer has.

If he's an example of what Calvinism does to someone's orthopraxy then sign me up.

---

Fair enough. I do not agree with his theology on hell and he seems to advocate a pretty severe Lordship salvation works based theology. I know of no Scripture or Biblical sermon that says God and creation will be rejoicing when poor souls go for eternal punishment which according to his own theology was preordained at the beginning of time.

Nothing wrong with that unless he ties it into salvation which I think he does.

And good on him for all his work. I sometimes wonder if he understands not all are called to be like him. And that does not mean they are damned.

dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

---

Do you have a link?

---

To what?

---

To Paul Washer's sermon or lecture or whatever it was.

---

Just google Paul Washer's quotes on hell. Numerous links including full sermons.

And if anyone can find any sermons in the NT that are similar or echo this theology, please inform me. Where did this theology come from?

---

The specific quote you posted to start this thread is shocking but the whole sermon is very good.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

lobopride said:

---

Do you have a link?

---

To what?

---

To Paul Washer's sermon or lecture or whatever it was.

---

Just google Paul Washer's quotes on hell. Numerous links including full sermons.

And if anyone can find any sermons in the NT that are similar or echo this theology, please inform me. Where did this theology come from?

---

The specific quote you posted to start this thread is shocking but the whole sermon is very good.

---

I will have to listen to the whole thing. Thanks.

Read the pdf and he and I have have completely different theologies His is very fear and wrath based, mine is love based. He is penal substitutionary atonement. I am Christus Victor. He believes in a judicial salvation. I believe in an ontological one. Would not want my kids or grand kids to listen to his sermons. Very wary of any fear based theology. Do not think it is Biblical.
Am sure he is sincere, just different theologies/soteriologies.

The difference is I do not think he is going to hell for our differences in theology. I bet he thinks I am. Thank God no man can scare or send anyone to hell.
And this sounds nothing like the sermons in the New Testament I have read.
I would love to ask him the question of where in Scripture it states that Jesus came to save us from hell.

Oh, and if you are wondering the kids I raised are wonderful. One is more traditional Christianity, other is more universal like me.
No tattoos, no piercings except ears, no kids out of wedlock, no addictions, etc.

And we were definitely love based and not wrath based More example based than proselytizing based. Some discipline but never had to be repeated hardly.