Wyoming Aggie said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Zobel said:

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Yeah, pretty sure that's not how that works. But that's between you and your priest / bishop. Not my business.

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It's not between me and anybody. It's between me and God.

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I don't know if you're trying to be edgy or have a few weird theological hang ups but you're the equivalent of beating your chest that you're a Vegan who eats meat.

The church says you're committing grave sin, you say you don't care what the church says, but that you're a member of the same church. There are many churches who will embrace your enthusiasm with IVF, not sure why you want to be a member of one that says what you're doing is akin to murder.

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I'm in my 40's and been a Catholic my whole life. Went to Dallas Jesuit for HS. I've even been a eucharistic minister for several years.

I'm sorry but I'm not playing musical chairs with churches because of the whims of man who make these decisions.

God gave me a mind to determine right from wrong.

You're not a serious human being if you do literally whatever your church tells you, you're a mindless drone.

The Pope also thinks the USA should have open borders and that no person is illegal while he sits behind the walls of the Vatican.

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PabloSerna said:

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aggietony2010 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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I have looked on both Vatican and USCCB sites for reference and have not found "grave sin" but rather "immoral" for IVF. Please cite your assertation.

Regarding Archbishop Vigano, he choose to do this himself after a lot of time and effort by many to work it out. I don't see the connection, maybe you can elaborate?

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Find me an IVF provider where the process involves none of the following.

Masturbation/non-vaginal intercourse (grave matter)
Pornography (grave matter)
Embryo selection/reduction (grave matter)

And then one can start parsing what is meant by "immoral."

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Well, it is precisely the words that define the level of sin. We can all agree that there are different levels. Mortal sins are those that rise to the level of "grave" whereas "immoral" does not in all cases. For instance, the way we treat the most vulnerable in our communities, ignoring the poor, etc., could be immoral- not grave.

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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The Marksman said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Zobel said:

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Yeah, pretty sure that's not how that works. But that's between you and your priest / bishop. Not my business.

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It's not between me and anybody. It's between me and God.

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I don't know if you're trying to be edgy or have a few weird theological hang ups but you're the equivalent of beating your chest that you're a Vegan who eats meat.

The church says you're committing grave sin, you say you don't care what the church says, but that you're a member of the same church. There are many churches who will embrace your enthusiasm with IVF, not sure why you want to be a member of one that says what you're doing is akin to murder.

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I'm in my 40's and been a Catholic my whole life. Went to Dallas Jesuit for HS. I've even been a eucharistic minister for several years.

I'm sorry but I'm not playing musical chairs with churches because of the whims of man who make these decisions.

God gave me a mind to determine right from wrong.

You're not a serious human being if you do literally whatever your church tells you, you're a mindless drone.

The Pope also thinks the USA should have open borders and that no person is illegal while he sits behind the walls of the Vatican.

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I see we've gotten to the point of the debate where one side just starts insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them because they can't articulate an actual argument to support their position

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How is it an insult? Again, you're not a thinking person if all you do is follow what some other men tell you to do based on their interpretation of what is right and wrong.

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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The Marksman said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Zobel said:

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Yeah, pretty sure that's not how that works. But that's between you and your priest / bishop. Not my business.

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It's not between me and anybody. It's between me and God.

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I don't know if you're trying to be edgy or have a few weird theological hang ups but you're the equivalent of beating your chest that you're a Vegan who eats meat.

The church says you're committing grave sin, you say you don't care what the church says, but that you're a member of the same church. There are many churches who will embrace your enthusiasm with IVF, not sure why you want to be a member of one that says what you're doing is akin to murder.

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I'm in my 40's and been a Catholic my whole life. Went to Dallas Jesuit for HS. I've even been a eucharistic minister for several years.

I'm sorry but I'm not playing musical chairs with churches because of the whims of man who make these decisions.

God gave me a mind to determine right from wrong.

You're not a serious human being if you do literally whatever your church tells you, you're a mindless drone.

The Pope also thinks the USA should have open borders and that no person is illegal while he sits behind the walls of the Vatican.

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I see we've gotten to the point of the debate where one side just starts insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them because they can't articulate an actual argument to support their position

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How is it an insult? Again, you're not a thinking person if all you do is follow what some other men tell you to do based on their interpretation of what is right and wrong.

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Scotts Tot said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Quote:

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Another sticking point seems to be the spiritual implications surrounding the separation of procreation from the marital act. It's not clear to me why this is immoral. Married couples frequently have sex that has little to no chance of resulting in pregnancy. What about women who are entirely infertile due to some medical reason or age? Should they become celibate because the intercourse is no longer a "procreative act"? Young Catholic couples who want to hold off on kids frequently engage in "natural family planning" to have sex at times when they are hoping/expecting the act to not result in pregnancy. Is this intention not immoral by the same standard?

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This is the "people die all the time; why isn't it okay to kill them?" Argument.

Sex between a man and a woman is in principle both procreative and unitive, despite individual factors that come into play. Sex does not always have to end up in a child, but it cannot artificially ensure that does not happen. The design of the body is wonderful in that it ensures that women who get past the age of being able to take care of children are normally no longer able to have them. Even if they are no longer fertile; they are still engaging in relations that are in principle both unitive and procreative.

The reasoning behind NFP is that it is not sin for you and your wife to plan when you have relations. You do not have to have relations when your wife is fertile.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "procreative in principle" means. If either or both of the man and woman are rendered sterile for any number of reasons (medical, age, etc), how are the relations procreative in any way whatsoever? A woman who has gone through menopause, or had a hysterectomy for a medical reason, or any number of other reasons she or her husband might no longer be fertile, cannot procreate. The sex they have is unitive but not procreative.

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