Outstanding article from the SSPX re: the case for more consecrations

2,555 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 1 hr ago by Mark Fairchild
Quo Vadis?
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Whether you are a fan of the society or not, this article is by far the best and most thorough "easy" read of the need for and reasoning behind both the Econe consecrations, and the increasingly like future consecrations of additional bishops for the SSPX.

Please do yourself a favor and read

https://sspx.org/en/news/future-consecrations-approaching-deadline-50846?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fedica-SSPX-org
747Ag
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

Whether you are a fan of the society or not, this article is by far the best and most thorough "easy" read of the need for and reasoning behind both the Econe consecrations, and the increasingly like future consecrations of additional bishops for the SSPX.

Please do yourself a favor and read

https://sspx.org/en/news/future-consecrations-approaching-deadline-50846?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fedica-SSPX-org
Will I go into schism if I click that link?
Quo Vadis?
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747Ag said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Whether you are a fan of the society or not, this article is by far the best and most thorough "easy" read of the need for and reasoning behind both the Econe consecrations, and the increasingly like future consecrations of additional bishops for the SSPX.

Please do yourself a favor and read

https://sspx.org/en/news/future-consecrations-approaching-deadline-50846?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fedica-SSPX-org
Will I go into schism if I click that link?


I'll tell you after you click
747Ag
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

747Ag said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Whether you are a fan of the society or not, this article is by far the best and most thorough "easy" read of the need for and reasoning behind both the Econe consecrations, and the increasingly like future consecrations of additional bishops for the SSPX.

Please do yourself a favor and read

https://sspx.org/en/news/future-consecrations-approaching-deadline-50846?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fedica-SSPX-org
Will I go into schism if I click that link?


I'll tell you after you click

Ok. After I finish listening to episode 26 (The Canon and Communion's Symbolic Meaning) in their series "The Catholic Mass."
747Ag
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

Whether you are a fan of the society or not, this article is by far the best and most thorough "easy" read of the need for and reasoning behind both the Econe consecrations, and the increasingly like future consecrations of additional bishops for the SSPX.

Please do yourself a favor and read

https://sspx.org/en/news/future-consecrations-approaching-deadline-50846?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fedica-SSPX-org
Captain Pablo
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AG
Seems self serving to me

#8 Necessity - basically, yeah Rome doesn't like it but we do it anyway because, well, we just have to and it's "necessary". SSPX defining what is necessary, I guess

The bishops are dying off so what the hell let's just consecrate a bunch of new ones that the Pope doesn't approve of

Rome hasn't declared them schismatic, but I don't know why. Seems like both camps would be happier. Then again, the Pope hasn't declared the Germans schismatic either. He puts up with their crap. He puts up with a lot of crap, I guess. Unless you are a mouthy Bishop in Tyler, Texas simply trying to keep the faith.

Anyway, isn't the SSPX the new home of those wacky nuns in Fort Worth?
fc2112
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continuing down the road to schism.

Check out...

Quote:

Now, it is clear that since the Second Vatican Council, the faithful of the Catholic Church have found themselves confronted with such a situation. Since 1965, the Church authorities have imposed on them a new Credo in three forms: religious liberty, ecumenism, and collegiality. And since 1969, they have also imposed on them a reformed liturgy, with a new Mass in a Protestant spirit and sacraments redeveloped in an ecumenical direction. In this way, these Popes impose on the faithful the serious errors of neo-Modernism, already condemned by their predecessors. In the face of this widespread Protestantism, every faithful Catholic in the Church must react. This point corresponds to what is commonly called "the crisis in the Church" and "the state of necessity." This justifies resistance: it is this resistance that explains the work of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of Saint Pius X.
Seriously, just leave.

Well, you already have - you just don't realize it.
Quo Vadis?
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fc2112 said:

continuing down the road to schism.

Check out...

Quote:

Now, it is clear that since the Second Vatican Council, the faithful of the Catholic Church have found themselves confronted with such a situation. Since 1965, the Church authorities have imposed on them a new Credo in three forms: religious liberty, ecumenism, and collegiality. And since 1969, they have also imposed on them a reformed liturgy, with a new Mass in a Protestant spirit and sacraments redeveloped in an ecumenical direction. In this way, these Popes impose on the faithful the serious errors of neo-Modernism, already condemned by their predecessors. In the face of this widespread Protestantism, every faithful Catholic in the Church must react. This point corresponds to what is commonly called "the crisis in the Church" and "the state of necessity." This justifies resistance: it is this resistance that explains the work of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of Saint Pius X.
Seriously, just leave.

Well, you already have - you just don't realize it.


The Novus Ordo mass was designed as an olive branch to Protestants in order to foster a new wave of ecumenism. Pope Paul VI's said so himself, the doxology was added to the end of the Lord's Prayer, the pax became a back slapping, hugging free for all, and the priest or deacon was free to riff on the homily and make it cool, funny and relatable.
747Ag
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AG
Quote:

All are welcome!
All are welcome!
ALL are welcome!
... except you guys over there.

So synodal.
Much accompaniment.
Very ecumenical.
fc2112
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Quo Vadis? said:

The Novus Ordo mass was designed as an olive branch to Protestants in order to foster a new wave of ecumenism. Pope Paul VI's said so himself, the doxology was added to the end of the Lord's Prayer, the pax became a back slapping, hugging free for all, and the priest or deacon was free to riff on the homily and make it cool, funny and relatable.
Link?
Quo Vadis?
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fc2112 said:

Quo Vadis? said:

The Novus Ordo mass was designed as an olive branch to Protestants in order to foster a new wave of ecumenism. Pope Paul VI's said so himself, the doxology was added to the end of the Lord's Prayer, the pax became a back slapping, hugging free for all, and the priest or deacon was free to riff on the homily and make it cool, funny and relatable.
Link?


It's literally bullet point 1 in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

Furthermore, Jean Guitton, a biographer and close friend of Pope Paul VI, and a lay observer of Vatican II, said the following in his book "dialogues with Paul VI"

Quote:

The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the [New] Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy. There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass."
fc2112
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Hmmmmm

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Quote:

INTRODUCTION
1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.


I don't see the word Protestant in there at all. And if you want to project that into his words, he's speaking about the council not the Mass.
Quo Vadis?
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fc2112 said:

Hmmmmm

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Quote:

INTRODUCTION
1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.


I don't see the word Protestant in there at all. And if you want to project that into his words, he's speaking about the council not the Mass.


Who are they fostering union with? Fellow Catholics?
fc2112
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Perhaps. But you walked right past the fact that sentence is about the council, not the new mass as you asserted.
fc2112
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And schismatics gonna schism.

https://www.americamagazine.org/vatican-dispatch/2026/02/02/sspx-ordain-bishops-vatican/

Quote:

The Priestly Society of St. Pius X, widely known as SSPX, has announced it will ordain bishops without papal permission on July 1, an act that would lead to the automatic excommunication of both the consecrating bishop and the bishop being consecrated. The move would likely complicate the already-murky canonical status of the traditionalist group.


Numerous popes made attempts to be conciliatory, but SSPX has remained recalcitrant.

Quote:

The move is widely seen as an attempt to force a decision from the Vatican on the group's canonical status. In 2019, Pope Francis dissolved the pontifical commission that was tasked with resolving the group's status, giving that responsibility to what is now the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. A senior SSPX layman, speaking to EWTN, said that although dialogue had been ongoing since summer 2025, "Rome is dragging its feet and being obstructive."


Well, good luck with that. Those of you attending SSPX churches - please look around you and realize - the church you attend is headed towards - if not already - NOT Catholic.
The BQ Jock
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I'll be attending the consecrations in July. I do believe there is a necessity to consecrate bishops to preserve tradition, therefore not incurring excommunication… but before anyone jumps to accusations of schism, we should take a step back and wait for things to play out. Detach ourselves emotionally from the events that are to unfold. The response from Pope Leo XIV is not public knowledge as of yet.
one MEEN Ag
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AG
So someone walk me through the top level points of SSPX again.
-They reject the authority of the pope
-They want their 'old' liturgy back
-Neither Pope nor SSPX can actually withstand a formal schism so SSPX gets to run to the end of the leash and bark.

Is that it?
fc2112
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The pope can absolutely stand kicking them out. The FSSP exists to provide the Latin Mass in parishes dedicated to it yet are in communion with Rome.
one MEEN Ag
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fc2112 said:

The pope can absolutely stand kicking them out. The FSSP exists to provide the Latin Mass in parishes dedicated to it yet are in communion with Rome.

So the SSPX groups perform a liturgical rite that the Pope does not want and they do against the Pope's wishes, correct? That has to be a base claim here, or there isn't a tension at all.

And no, the catholic church cannot allow the SPPX to schism as it will cause the gay german clergy to schism as well. But the gay germans don't want to schism since they basically get what they want right now anyway (A pope that looks the other way to their sexuality and sexual sins), Right now Catholicism is being pulled apart at the seams in all the ways protestantism is, but is not allowed to schism internally. To take a strong stance as the pope would tear the unity and that would immediately A) reduce the claims of the pope and B)show that the first protestants (catholics) are no different than later protestant groups.

Ironically, the claims of the pope's universality are used against the pope here by the power broker cardinals beneath him. Church attendance in the first world (where the power base is) is either dwindled to nothing or is resegregating along accepting/rejecting the trappings of the secular worldviews. If the pope lost 300,000,000 catholics overnight and they still claimed to be catholic, the Pope is no longer the universal see of even Catholicism.

So the pope basically has to go along with alot more bull**** than you think to keep 'unity' even at the expense of 'right'. And thus the whole idea of papal supremacy leading to stable continuity in the faith falls apart.
The Banned
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one MEEN Ag said:

fc2112 said:

The pope can absolutely stand kicking them out. The FSSP exists to provide the Latin Mass in parishes dedicated to it yet are in communion with Rome.

So the SSPX groups perform a liturgical rite that the Pope does not want and they do against the Pope's wishes, correct? That has to be a base claim here, or there isn't a tension at all.

And no, the catholic church cannot allow the SPPX to schism as it will cause the gay german clergy to schism as well. But the gay germans don't want to schism since they basically get what they want right now anyway (A pope that looks the other way to their sexuality and sexual sins), Right now Catholicism is being pulled apart at the seams in all the ways protestantism is, but is not allowed to schism internally. To take a strong stance as the pope would tear the unity and that would immediately A) reduce the claims of the pope and B)show that the first protestants (catholics) are no different than later protestant groups.

Ironically, the claims of the pope's universality are used against the pope here by the power broker cardinals beneath him. Church attendance in the first world (where the power base is) is either dwindled to nothing or is resegregating along accepting/rejecting the trappings of the secular worldviews. If the pope lost 300,000,000 catholics overnight and they still claimed to be catholic, the Pope is no longer the universal see of even Catholicism.

So the pope basically has to go along with alot more bull**** than you think to keep 'unity' even at the expense of 'right'. And thus the whole idea of papal supremacy leading to stable continuity in the faith falls apart.

You really got out ahead of your skis there.

1. The current Pope is not against the Latin Mass. He hasn't taken a public stance on it, but several of his actions have shown he's ok with it. As stated above, the FSSP is a Latin Mass group that is fully in communion with Rome.

2. They SSPX does not do the Latin Mass against the Pope's wishes. They disagree with parts of Vatican 2 that they believe are overly ecumenical. That's the only true point of contention (currently) that prevents full communion. If they consecrate bishops without permission, we will have major point #2.

3. The SSPX was already in schism for ~30 years before Benedict lifted the excommunication. A second schism won't be some earth shattering happening.

4. The Russian Orthodox Church is over half of Orthodox membership worldwide, and they are not in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch. EO is split in half at the moment you typed this nonsense. Depending which Bishop I go to (if I were to convert) I may need to be baptized to be saved, or I might not need to baptized again. I can't even get a straight answer on what I need to do to be saved? Maybe ordained deaconesses participating in male liturgical roles are ok, and maybe they're not. Depends which flavor of Orthodoxy I choose to align with. I would suggest your own house has affairs it needs to get in order that surpass ours. Ours are just more widely publicized because the world pays more attention to what's happening in the Catholic Church.

5. "First protestants" is just ******ed. You're the 2nd EO to use it here, so let me help: Protestants are called Protestants because the "protested" the authority of Catholic Church and the Pope in favor of scripture alone. It quite literally only applies to those protesting the Catholic Church. Call us heretics or whatever you want, but calling us the first protestants is dumb on all the levels.

6. The Church has always been patient with it's heretics in order to try and maintain unity. That was the whole point of the conciliar process in the early Church. The Great Schism took place over 4 centuries and 2 reconciliation councils before all talks broke off. People love citing 1054, but talks to resolve the issue continued for a long time

7. The German's are not getting what they want right now. They want to ordain women and change the teaching on homosexuality. Right now they simply talk about both, say they want both, but do not formally teach or practice either. They know the second they do, excommunication happens. The Magisterium, headed by the Pope, is the only reason they haven't fully jumped the shark yet. I'd say this is more proof of how the office keeps the internal groups from splintering into madness.
one MEEN Ag
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The Banned said:

one MEEN Ag said:

fc2112 said:

The pope can absolutely stand kicking them out. The FSSP exists to provide the Latin Mass in parishes dedicated to it yet are in communion with Rome.

So the SSPX groups perform a liturgical rite that the Pope does not want and they do against the Pope's wishes, correct? That has to be a base claim here, or there isn't a tension at all.

And no, the catholic church cannot allow the SPPX to schism as it will cause the gay german clergy to schism as well. But the gay germans don't want to schism since they basically get what they want right now anyway (A pope that looks the other way to their sexuality and sexual sins), Right now Catholicism is being pulled apart at the seams in all the ways protestantism is, but is not allowed to schism internally. To take a strong stance as the pope would tear the unity and that would immediately A) reduce the claims of the pope and B)show that the first protestants (catholics) are no different than later protestant groups.

Ironically, the claims of the pope's universality are used against the pope here by the power broker cardinals beneath him. Church attendance in the first world (where the power base is) is either dwindled to nothing or is resegregating along accepting/rejecting the trappings of the secular worldviews. If the pope lost 300,000,000 catholics overnight and they still claimed to be catholic, the Pope is no longer the universal see of even Catholicism.

So the pope basically has to go along with alot more bull**** than you think to keep 'unity' even at the expense of 'right'. And thus the whole idea of papal supremacy leading to stable continuity in the faith falls apart.

You really got out ahead of your skis there.

1. The current Pope is not against the Latin Mass. He hasn't taken a public stance on it, but several of his actions have shown he's ok with it. As stated above, the FSSP is a Latin Mass group that is fully in communion with Rome.

The current pope hasn't taken a stance. Whats the history here though? Clearly SSPX and the pope as an office don't get along in recent decades. What gives?

2. They SSPX does not do the Latin Mass against the Pope's wishes. They disagree with parts of Vatican 2 that they believe are overly ecumenical. That's the only true point of contention (currently) that prevents full communion. If they consecrate bishops without permission, we will have major point #2.

Wasn't Francis' big thing coming down hard on TLM and forcing NO? So new pope arrives...is everyone just waiting for TLM to make a big comeback? I honestly don't understand the play here.

3. The SSPX was already in schism for ~30 years before Benedict lifted the excommunication. A second schism won't be some earth shattering happening.

So this group has been a true schismatic group. How did it operate then?

4. The Russian Orthodox Church is over half of Orthodox membership worldwide, and they are not in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch. EO is split in half at the moment you typed this nonsense. Depending which Bishop I go to (if I were to convert) I may need to be baptized to be saved, or I might not need to baptized again. I can't even get a straight answer on what I need to do to be saved? Maybe ordained deaconesses participating in male liturgical roles are ok, and maybe they're not. Depends which flavor of Orthodoxy I choose to align with. I would suggest your own house has affairs it needs to get in order that surpass ours. Ours are just more widely publicized because the world pays more attention to what's happening in the Catholic Church.

Split in half? Last time I checked the russian orthodox church has still made same dogmatic theological claims and liturgical use as the rest of the church. Thats how the federation works. No one out ranks one another. Keep the faith or there is the door. I can still take communion in a russian church. They can here at my church as well. Now the Patriarchates disagreeing is one thing, and while not fruitful, is allowed. But the laity can still go take communion at each others churches as a matter of theological claims.

Now about your very protestant worded question about being saved. What are you specifically asking about bishop shopping? Being 'saved' is very different in orthodoxy than protestantism. We've discussed this. It is a journey to walk with Christ. While baptism is generally standard practice to be received into the church, some are adamant their previous baptism is the same and want to be accepted by just Chrismation. To dive deeper into what exactly each of the sacraments does in the spiritual realm is beyond human comprehension. Baptism is not tantamount to being saved. It is tantamount to starting your walk with Christ in the church and beginning of your theosis. Now lets say you take your first communion, and have a heart attack that takes you. Lord have mercy on your soul. Your eternal state is not sealed by chrismation versus baptism here. You ended your life while turning towards God. May God judge your heart, find you humble and repentant and grant you paradise. We'll host a funeral sacrament to aid you soul on its journey towards Christ.

Each bishop you talk to will give a way better answer than I have, but it will be roughly the same here.

And yes, the deaconess role is on its surface and issue and there are people who are using it as a kudgel to crack open the deacon role further. I believe there is one deaconess for being a helper in an african tribe that is extremely sex segregated. I can see why you think this is exactly the same as western secular encroachment.

Is this discussion not about the various flavors of catholicism at hand? The local ethnic distinctions between various cultural expressions of orthodoxy are airtight compared to all the various grab bag of rites and secular creep in catholicism.



5. "First protestants" is just ******ed. You're the 2nd EO to use it here, so let me help: Protestants are called Protestants because the "protested" the authority of Catholic Church and the Pope in favor of scripture alone. It quite literally only applies to those protesting the Catholic Church. Call us heretics or whatever you want, but calling us the first protestants is dumb on all the levels.

The pope is called the first protestant because of the filioque and him taking his bisphoric and going home. He protested the church counsel structure. There was 5 patriarchate heads, coming together as equals to fend of heresies for the first 1000 years. The bishop of Rome decided he could act unilaterally. He hit the eject button on orthodoxy. So, first protestant is a perfect descriptor here. Hope that helps.

6. The Church has always been patient with it's heretics in order to try and maintain unity. That was the whole point of the conciliar process in the early Church. The Great Schism took place over 4 centuries and 2 reconciliation councils before all talks broke off. People love citing 1054, but talks to resolve the issue continued for a long time

Would you like to go into further detail about how the fourth crusade ended these talks?

7. The German's are not getting what they want right now. They want to ordain women and change the teaching on homosexuality. Right now they simply talk about both, say they want both, but do not formally teach or practice either. They know the second they do, excommunication happens. The Magisterium, headed by the Pope, is the only reason they haven't fully jumped the shark yet. I'd say this is more proof of how the office keeps the internal groups from splintering into madness.

The pope has not acted to root out the problem even though he has the unilateral authority to do so. Why is that? Because he doesn't actually have the authority to do so. He puts the papal bull anywhere within a 100 miles of Berlin he loses that fiefdom. And that unity is more important than whatever sodomy they are covering up.
Severian the Torturer
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fc2112 said:

And schismatics gonna schism.

https://www.americamagazine.org/vatican-dispatch/2026/02/02/sspx-ordain-bishops-vatican/

Quote:

The Priestly Society of St. Pius X, widely known as SSPX, has announced it will ordain bishops without papal permission on July 1, an act that would lead to the automatic excommunication of both the consecrating bishop and the bishop being consecrated. The move would likely complicate the already-murky canonical status of the traditionalist group.


Numerous popes made attempts to be conciliatory, but SSPX has remained recalcitrant.

Quote:

The move is widely seen as an attempt to force a decision from the Vatican on the group's canonical status. In 2019, Pope Francis dissolved the pontifical commission that was tasked with resolving the group's status, giving that responsibility to what is now the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. A senior SSPX layman, speaking to EWTN, said that although dialogue had been ongoing since summer 2025, "Rome is dragging its feet and being obstructive."


Well, good luck with that. Those of you attending SSPX churches - please look around you and realize - the church you attend is headed towards - if not already - NOT Catholic.


That's weird, because those saying that this would be an act of schism, have been saying we're already in schism.

The SSPX does not reject the authority of the Pope, far from it, while they reject Vatican II's innovations, they actually seem closer to the Mass as described by the documents that came from said pastoral council.

I have no idea why anyone is spiking the football over this. This is an absolute tragedy. The church has cratered since it "threw the doors wide open" in the 50's and 60's. Priests have become MC's, the Eucharist is treated as a drive thru happy meal, penance and fasting are seen as eating two plates of fried fish on Good Friday and maybe making a yearly confession, and the German church is doing what the German church is famous for.

Congrats fellow Catholics, let's dunk on those that hold most closely to the actual teachings of the universal church (as per every survey and census I've seen)

The German church will continue to bless gay marriages liturgically, and thumb their nose at the Vatican, while the mean baby having, fish eating, tithing, trads are fully cast off from the barque of Peter.

Great post, enjoy your guitar music and rap homily's
one MEEN Ag
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AG
Severian the Torturer said:

fc2112 said:

And schismatics gonna schism.

https://www.americamagazine.org/vatican-dispatch/2026/02/02/sspx-ordain-bishops-vatican/

Quote:

The Priestly Society of St. Pius X, widely known as SSPX, has announced it will ordain bishops without papal permission on July 1, an act that would lead to the automatic excommunication of both the consecrating bishop and the bishop being consecrated. The move would likely complicate the already-murky canonical status of the traditionalist group.


Numerous popes made attempts to be conciliatory, but SSPX has remained recalcitrant.

Quote:

The move is widely seen as an attempt to force a decision from the Vatican on the group's canonical status. In 2019, Pope Francis dissolved the pontifical commission that was tasked with resolving the group's status, giving that responsibility to what is now the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. A senior SSPX layman, speaking to EWTN, said that although dialogue had been ongoing since summer 2025, "Rome is dragging its feet and being obstructive."


Well, good luck with that. Those of you attending SSPX churches - please look around you and realize - the church you attend is headed towards - if not already - NOT Catholic.


That's weird, because those saying that this would be an act of schism, have been saying we're already in schism.

The SSPX does not reject the authority of the Pope, far from it, while they reject Vatican II's innovations, they actually seem closer to the Mass as described by the documents that came from said pastoral council.

They absolutely reject the authority of the Pope. There might have been Popes they liked better, but this is exactly the same as people saying, 'Not my president.' They absolutely are your president. They absolutely are your pope. Living under authority is defined perfectly when living under authority you disagree with. You can't say you accept the office just reject the person in its seat. They are one in the same.

And this is the problem with papal supremacy here. The very idea of one person to rule all to make unity doesn't make unity. Look at the ever changing canon law of Catholicism.


I have no idea why anyone is spiking the football over this. This is an absolute tragedy. The church has cratered since it "threw the doors wide open" in the 50's and 60's. Priests have become MC's, the Eucharist is treated as a drive thru happy meal, penance and fasting are seen as eating two plates of fried fish on Good Friday and maybe making a yearly confession, and the German church is doing what the German church is famous for.

Congrats fellow Catholics, let's dunk on those that hold most closely to the actual teachings of the universal church (as per every survey and census I've seen)

The German church will continue to bless gay marriages liturgically, and thumb their nose at the Vatican, while the mean baby having, fish eating, tithing, trads are fully cast off from the barque of Peter.

Great post, enjoy your guitar music and rap homily's

The idea that the SPPX can force their superior with an ultimatum to schism if they don't act is very protestant here.

Severian the Torturer
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The German church is absolutely blessing gay marriages right now. They have bragged as such, in blatant violation of Fiducia Supplicans.

And Pope Leo XIV, may not mind the Latin Mass, but he does not seem to have any warm and fuzzies about the Catholics who prefer that liturgy, if I'm reading his comments on the subject correctly.

Why we can have an Anglican, Mozarabic, and Ambrosian use, and 5 other complete rites but we can't have the one that the Church used for a couple hundred years is a mystery
Severian the Torturer
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one MEEN Ag said:

Severian the Torturer said:

fc2112 said:

And schismatics gonna schism.

https://www.americamagazine.org/vatican-dispatch/2026/02/02/sspx-ordain-bishops-vatican/

Quote:

The Priestly Society of St. Pius X, widely known as SSPX, has announced it will ordain bishops without papal permission on July 1, an act that would lead to the automatic excommunication of both the consecrating bishop and the bishop being consecrated. The move would likely complicate the already-murky canonical status of the traditionalist group.


Numerous popes made attempts to be conciliatory, but SSPX has remained recalcitrant.

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The move is widely seen as an attempt to force a decision from the Vatican on the group's canonical status. In 2019, Pope Francis dissolved the pontifical commission that was tasked with resolving the group's status, giving that responsibility to what is now the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. A senior SSPX layman, speaking to EWTN, said that although dialogue had been ongoing since summer 2025, "Rome is dragging its feet and being obstructive."


Well, good luck with that. Those of you attending SSPX churches - please look around you and realize - the church you attend is headed towards - if not already - NOT Catholic.


That's weird, because those saying that this would be an act of schism, have been saying we're already in schism.

The SSPX does not reject the authority of the Pope, far from it, while they reject Vatican II's innovations, they actually seem closer to the Mass as described by the documents that came from said pastoral council.

They absolutely reject the authority of the Pope. There might have been Popes they liked better, but this is exactly the same as people saying, 'Not my president.' They absolutely are your president. They absolutely are your pope. Living under authority is defined perfectly when living under authority you disagree with. You can't say you accept the office just reject the person in its seat. They are one in the same.

And this is the problem with papal supremacy here. The very idea of one person to rule all to make unity doesn't make unity. Look at the ever changing canon law of Catholicism.


I have no idea why anyone is spiking the football over this. This is an absolute tragedy. The church has cratered since it "threw the doors wide open" in the 50's and 60's. Priests have become MC's, the Eucharist is treated as a drive thru happy meal, penance and fasting are seen as eating two plates of fried fish on Good Friday and maybe making a yearly confession, and the German church is doing what the German church is famous for.

Congrats fellow Catholics, let's dunk on those that hold most closely to the actual teachings of the universal church (as per every survey and census I've seen)

The German church will continue to bless gay marriages liturgically, and thumb their nose at the Vatican, while the mean baby having, fish eating, tithing, trads are fully cast off from the barque of Peter.

Great post, enjoy your guitar music and rap homily's

The idea that the SPPX can force their superior with an ultimatum to schism if they don't act is very protestant here.




They don't disagree with his authority, they reject that the Pope has the authority to stop them in this instance due to extenuating circumstances (canon 1323 and 1324). This is not the first time this has happened, when Pope St John Paul II was a Cardinal, he went against a direct papal interdict and consecrated additional bishops and ordained priests during the Cold War, citing the needs of the church. The Pope absolutely has the authority to declare them as schismatics and issue excommunications, but he does not have to.

I don't believe they're trying to leverage the Pope, merely saying what they intend to do.
The Banned
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Severian the Torturer said:

The German church is absolutely blessing gay marriages right now. They have bragged as such, in blatant violation of Fiducia Supplicans.

And Pope Leo XIV, may not mind the Latin Mass, but he does not seem to have any warm and fuzzies about the Catholics who prefer that liturgy, if I'm reading his comments on the subject correctly.

Why we can have an Anglican, Mozarabic, and Ambrosian use, and 5 other complete rites but we can't have the one that the Church used for a couple hundred years is a mystery

No they aren't. When you really dig in, you can see that certain German Bishops are doing everything they can to push the issue without crossing into official heresy. The negative view is "their intent is evil, even if their actions/words are technically legal, so hammer down anyway". The positive view is "their intent is evil, but their actions/words haven't formally entered into heresy, so keep the dialogue open". Papal minimalism is embodied in the latter. Papal maximalism is embodied in the former. Neither Vatican 1 or 2 teaches Papal maximalism, so I'll defer to the minimalism.

Leo did allow for the Latin mass at the Vatican, and had an audience with Bishop Athanasius Snyder. His concern seems to be for unity. Unfortunately, Francis bought the lie that TLM goers were fomenting schism, which is why he reversed Benedict's decision. Of the TLMers I know, I do not believe there is an ounce of schism in their blood. But I have met a couple SSPX guys that are adamant that the Novus Ordo is not a legitimate rite of the mass. That's about as schismatic as you can get. I pray that Leo has better senses than our prior pope
The Banned
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To summarize 1-3:

SSPX was started by Bishop Levebvre after Vatican 2. His primary concern was that the ecumenism taught in Vatican 2 departed from the Church's historical teaching. He quasi-rejected the council. The new rite of the mass was after the fact, and never a primary point of contention, at least from the Catholic Church's view. They were not announced as schismatic until Levebvre, nearing the end of his life, ordained new bishops. He asked for permission, and the pope denied it, which is why there was an initial schism. Had he "asked for forgiveness instead of permission", he wouldn't be guilty of denying direct orders and there would have been no schism.

Fast forward a couple decades and the current bishops in the SSPX (who were not involved in the initial issues) sought reconciliation. Pope Benedict acquiesced. The disagreements of doctrinal teaching in Vatican 2 remain, but there is fraternal conversation now. The last 2 bishops in the SSPX (neither of whom is under excommunication) are nearing the end of their life. They've asked for permission to ordain new bishops. The request was unanswered. They have set the dates for new consecrations for July, which clearly gives a timeline for both sides to seek an agreement. Schism will be determined by what happens or doesn't happen in the next 6 months. If schism does occur, we're reverting back to the way things were 15 years ago.


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Last time I checked the russian orthodox church has still made same dogmatic theological claims and liturgical use as the rest of the church

Herein lies the rub. The SSPX and the gay German's still, technically, hold to the same "dogmatic theological claims" and to valid "liturgies" as the rest of the church. If that's the bar you want to use, you have no high ground to stand on. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm still allowed to receive communion at an SSPX parish, as long as certain perimeters are met. Sort of like how here in the states you can receive in either parish, but if you lived in eastern Europe, you'd have a very different result. So either hold that against both groups, or allow it for both groups.

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Now about your very protestant worded question about being saved. What are you specifically asking about bishop shopping?

I used "saved" as shorthand, because I think it's gets the point across. Your distinction is noted and agreed with.

That said, I am not talking about bishop shopping. As a Catholic, it's a wild thing to even consider from a sacramental standpoint. The only "bishop shopping" to be done would be to decide which liturgy you like better. There are no theological disagreements you can sift through. All Bishops submit themselves to the One Church's teaching.

What I'm talking about is, if I decided the EO churches somehow combine to be the one, true Church, the answer I get on re-baptism is going to differ widely based on which Orthodox Church I enter. What part of Houston I live in would likely lead me to the nearest EO church. That priest/bishop could tell me my baptism is invalid, and the Holy Spirit was not present in that false sacrament. But if I visited an Orthodox church on the other side of Houston, I might be told I received a valid sacrament. This isn't about "saved" from a Protestant perspective. This is about whether or not I received a sacrament the Church has taught is necessary. And the answer I received hinges on which parish I happened to visit. That's wildly problematic to me. It's equal to determining whether or not my priest is presenting the true Eucharist or not. It's not a matter we can shrug off.

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I believe there is one deaconess for being a helper in an african tribe that is extremely sex segregated

Nope. She wore the same vestments as the male deacons. She served the same role as the male deacons in the consecration and distribution of the Eucharist. It's a bigger deal that this description. And the patriarchs are silent on it right now.

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The pope is called the first protestant because of the filioque and him taking his bisphoric and going home. He protested the church counsel structure. There was 5 patriarchate heads, coming together as equals to fend of heresies for the first 1000 years. The bishop of Rome decided he could act unilaterally. He hit the eject button on orthodoxy. So, first protestant is a perfect descriptor here. Hope that helps.


This is nonsense. The filioque was stated in a pope in the liturgy 40 years before "the split". The pope never required any Eastern bishop or priest to recite it. He never said "say the filioque or else". In actually goes the other way.

What happened was the patriarch of Constantinople didn't like how "Latin" the parishes in his territory were becoming. Those dirty Roman immigrants to the East had priests among them and had their own parishes. He issued a decree to shut down every parish that didn't conform with his liturgy or that used the filioque. After his edict, the pope gave warning that what he did needed to be reversed or face excommunication (the "first SSPX" label may fit that patriarch well, by your standards). The Constantinopolitan bishop refused, and excommunications followed. No one took their bishopric home.

But this brings up my favorite question:. How many councils did the other 4 Patriarchs invite the Roman Patriarch to in order to seek resolution? Did they even try? Why were they so content with letting a patriarch split without even attempting resolution? If anyone was the "first protestant" it was Patriarch Cerularius. He called a council with a few Eastern bishops, zero western bishops, and didn't even so much as send a delegation to Rome to attempt a resolve.

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Would you like to go into further detail about how the fourth crusade ended these talks?


Thankfully I don't need to. There were two attempted reunification councils AFTER that crusade. To say that the crusade ended talks is to completely ignore history.

I'd also like to state that Pope Innocent expressly forbade the sacking of Constantinople. I'm sure that fact gets left out in many of the discussions you've seen

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The pope has not acted to root out the problem even though he has the unilateral authority to do so. Why is that? Because he doesn't actually have the authority to do so. He puts the papal bull anywhere within a 100 miles of Berlin he loses that fiefdom. And that unity is more important than whatever sodomy they are covering up

This one here is my favorite accusation from the EO/Anglican/Lutheran groups. These are the groups that claim the Pope conjured up tyrannical powers out of whole cloth and abused these particular groups with said tyrannical power. But, in modern times, when they see the Pope not acting tyrannically, they say his lack of tyranny is evidence against his authority. It's playing both sides of the fence.

The bishop of Rome is an earthly shepherd. If you've ever raised livestock, you recognize that it's an inherently defensive/reflexive role. It's corrective. How he chooses to correct is a matter of prudential judgement, and it's effectiveness is determined by the fallen human natures of those he attempts to correct. Sometimes it seems like non-Catholics desperately want the Pope to be the dictator figure they describe him as, even though they despise that description.
Severian the Torturer
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Brother they released a handbook drafted by both Bishops and lay Catholics of Germany, that specifically speaks to the blessing of gay and irregular couples.

The most diabolical double speak you could ever imagine, wherein the "spontaneous" blessings are planned ahead of time and include scriptural readings and music.

This is something entirely different from their synods, this is working guideline for pastors and their flock issued by the German episcopate
747Ag
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AG
The Banned said:

Of the TLMers I know, I do not believe there is an ounce of schism in their blood. But I have met a couple SSPX guys that are adamant that the Novus Ordo is not a legitimate rite of the mass. That's about as schismatic as you can get. I pray that Leo has better senses than our prior pope

I'd bet that's a minority opinion. If you dive into what SSPX priests (laity aren't in the SSPX) say (for example on the SSPX Podcast), you'll find they accept the new rites of the sacraments (including the Mass) as valid and licit. They have reservations about the process in which we got them and the content therein. But that's it.

But also, what is meant by "legitimate"? Licit? Valid? Something else? I'd imagine you'd find that sort of idea to a small degree in FSSP & ICKSP apostolates too and perhaps even some diocesan groups.
fc2112
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This whole diatribe about the Novus Ordo mass is why so many bishops take pause about the SSPX communities.

You're free to have the TLM - knock yourself out. But the bashing and denigration and divisiveness that comes from the TLM community is what's the problem. The NO community (99.9% of Catholics) doesn't even notice the SSPX community exists.
747Ag
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AG
fc2112 said:

This whole diatribe about the Novus Ordo mass is why so many bishops take pause about the SSPX communities.

You're free to have the TLM - knock yourself out. But the bashing and denigration and divisiveness that comes from the TLM community is what's the problem. The NO community (99.9% of Catholics) doesn't even notice the SSPX community exists.

The meanie-poopoo-headedness... It's a two-way street.

ETA... and it's just a handful of blowhards. We've had to deal with Novus Ordo Mass attendees barbs even though we are in the same parish. Most of the meanie traddy nonsense is from anonymous online blowhards.
Severian the Torturer
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fc2112 said:

This whole diatribe about the Novus Ordo mass is why so many bishops take pause about the SSPX communities.

You're free to have the TLM - knock yourself out. But the bashing and denigration and divisiveness that comes from the TLM community is what's the problem. The NO community (99.9% of Catholics) doesn't even notice the SSPX community exists.


The Novus Ordo mass is very Protestant in nature. There are some that are good. I actually started a thread about a great Novus ordo mass I went to at St Barts in Katy a month or so ago.

Most NO masses I have gone to are not. They have a priest who tries to be funny and relatable and mix in humorous anecdotes that don't explain the gospel or readings, there are a million EMHC's who walk around with the Eucharist to points around the church and no one seems to care that Christ is passing by them. Sure the laity is more involved, but I don't understand why that's important. Did the laity need to be more involved at Calvary?
fc2112
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747Ag said:

fc2112 said:

This whole diatribe about the Novus Ordo mass is why so many bishops take pause about the SSPX communities.

You're free to have the TLM - knock yourself out. But the bashing and denigration and divisiveness that comes from the TLM community is what's the problem. The NO community (99.9% of Catholics) doesn't even notice the SSPX community exists.

The meanie-poopoo-headedness... It's a two-way street.

ETA... and it's just a handful of blowhards. We've had to deal with Novus Ordo Mass attendees barbs even though we are in the same parish. Most of the meanie traddy nonsense is from anonymous online blowhards.

I will agree that it's likely a two way street. We do not have a TLM community in our parish so I've never seen it. And no doubt most are internet blow hards.
Severian the Torturer
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I think it's important to remind everyone that in a Church that is 2,000 years old; 40 years isn't even the blink of an eye.

St Joan of Arc was excommunicated, St Athanasisus I believe was excommunicated/exiled multiple times for his refusal to accept Arius and his heresy back in communion.

I believe Bishop Marcel Lefebvre is a Saint and will be recognized as such one day. I don't believe we would have the Latin Mass today and would have lost much of our history, had it not been for his actions.
The Banned
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747Ag said:

The Banned said:

Of the TLMers I know, I do not believe there is an ounce of schism in their blood. But I have met a couple SSPX guys that are adamant that the Novus Ordo is not a legitimate rite of the mass. That's about as schismatic as you can get. I pray that Leo has better senses than our prior pope

I'd bet that's a minority opinion. If you dive into what SSPX priests (laity aren't in the SSPX) say (for example on the SSPX Podcast), you'll find they accept the new rites of the sacraments (including the Mass) as valid and licit. They have reservations about the process in which we got them and the content therein. But that's it.

But also, what is meant by "legitimate"? Licit? Valid? Something else? I'd imagine you'd find that sort of idea to a small degree in FSSP & ICKSP apostolates too and perhaps even some diocesan groups.

I think it's definitely the minority. Unfortunately that minority is magnified by those with an axe to grind to try and tamp down the TLM in general.
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