Mourning Charlie Kirk - the spiritual aspect

3,323 Views | 57 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Zobel
Patriot25
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Charlie was a singular soul, cherished and divine. His brutal murder sent shockwaves through both this world and the spiritual realm. I believe his horrific death was fueled by dark, malevolent forces. In its wake, countless darkened hearts in America reveled in demonic delight at the loss of this child of God. Meanwhile, the Christian community was shattered, reeling from both the tragedy and the stark revelation of humanity's capacity for evil. Charlie's vile murder struck both the righteous and the wicked profoundly, but in opposite ways: God's children mourned with deep sorrow, while those serving darker powers found perverse joy.




1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Matthew 4:7-8
7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
Patriot25
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I find solace in God's Word knowing that Charlie is in Paradise with our Father. Charlie has never been better! I believe that our Father used Charlie to help others to see the light, so to speak. I believe that Father allowed dark forces to extinguish Charlie's earthly life knowing that his passing would bring about an enormous harvest of souls into his flock. As usual, God wins. Spoiler alert: in the end, God gets everything he wants!

Ephesians 1:9-10
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
Patriot25
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Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Romans 1:28-32

[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [29] They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Patriot25
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Amazing scripture. Thank you!
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Romans 1:28-32

[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [29] They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Nails it. Thanks.
This is much more than political disagreements. This is good vs evil.
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Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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If you say you are a Christian and his murder doesn't grieve you to the core, then you are NOT a Christian. For the CMs out there it's time to wake up. You are on the side of evil and death.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
aggiedata
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Oregon preaching the Word. They are really on the front lines of this battle. I'm encouraged to see thus and also hear Dan Lanning (Oregon football coach) speak about CK.

PabloSerna
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For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.
10andBOUNCE
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"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church"
- Tertullian
Martin Q. Blank
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Rev. 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
94chem
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PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
94chem
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History in the fallen world challenges us in so many ways to accept things in their entirety, and we are lectured that our failure to do so will put us at odds with whatever structure of power is currently in place.

I would have without a doubt preached on this matter. First, we all come into this life with certain defining traits, and we acquire others as we go along. We are born with a certain skin color, nationality, personality, intellect, and family. We acquire various knowledge and skills. They are all tools for helping us carry out God's will in our lives, but they are never the basis for His favor. For example, as a scientist I can reach professors in universities, and I have done so. As a writer, I have authored many papers and a book. As an American, I have used my passport and financial gifts to adopt two children from other countries. As a white person, I have been a member of a mostly black church. God only knows what that did for the Kingdom...but I learned a lot.

Second, these traits, no matter what they are, were never meant to be my identity. If they are sinful, I need to let them go. If they are good, I need to shun their worship. If they are neutral (like race or language), I need to ask God how to use them for His glory. When my acerbic tongue and sinful will cross the line into wickedness, I need to repent.

As a child, I was taught that Martin Luther King was a philanderer, or a communist, and therefore his message of racial reconciliation and peaceful defiance could be ignored. I was taught that schools were better before integration. I was taught that George Wallace wasn't a racist, but that he was a proponent of states' rights. And more. So much more. I swallowed it all, hook, line, and sinker, because I wanted the world to be "black and white," for everything to make sense without thinking.

But then I learned about the Buffalo Soldiers, and how Civil Rights went backwards in the 1920's. I learned about Kennesaw Mountain Landis. I learned how Emmett Till's killer walked free and lived out his days in my own city. And more. So much more. I learned that every culture must have some version of the "good ole days," because it's so much easier than thinking. Oh, how our palliative mythologies persist. The Xanadu of the mind...

But here's the thing. It seems that this trip through life as a Christ follower has - as its main purpose - to strip away and shed all of those identities except our identity in Christ. Maybe it's age, or maybe it's study of scripture, or maybe it's hands to the plow. I am less American after adopting from China, less white after serving HIV-infected people in S. Africa, less scholarly after teaching the Bible to children, etc. These traits haven't gone away, but they are only temporal tools, so far beneath the surpassing knowledge of knowing Christ. As Paul said, skubalon (rubbish). As John said, "I must decrease, and he must increase." I still have much to shed. So much more...

And so, I believe are called to reach a peace in conflict as we navigate this temporal diaspora. As Hebrews says, Jesus saves us completely. Yes, it is future, but it is also past, and it is here and now. We rest in our salvation even though we look through the dark glass. I love the courage of Martin Luther, but I reject his anti-Jewish rantings. I love the KJV Bible, but reject the KJV only-ism. I love Ken Hamm, but I reject his interpretation of Genesis 1. I love Martin Luther King's message, but I reject his personal life. I loved James Dobson, but I rejected his continual fear-mongering and alignment with political grifters. And more. So much more.

And so it is with Charlie Kirk. This assault on our dignity, on our country, on a man of faith. I love this follower of Christ, but I do not accept his politics. He taught nothing new. It is the same things that I heard from the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, etc., in the 1980's and 1990's. It was based in populist "us vs. them" rhetoric then, and it's based in the same ideas now. Once I was disabused of these ideas by looking at the leaders who proclaimed them, the rot they produced, and the people they deceived, they no longer had a hold on me. It's almost as if the modern politician tries to hook me with his religious rhetoric, and I have no populist leanings that can be hooked. I have ideological line item veto. What...is...the...word...for...that. I believe it's called freedom. Thank you, Jesus. And take good care of Charlie, please.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.


Yeah. Heaven forbid they do that. I guess seeing the bullet enter his throat, the massive amount of blood and then him immediately going limp will have them feeling just peachy.

It will have the opposite effect.

In hoc signo vinces

Also it's funny seeing some people post on this board as Christians. Kinda like seeing Amy Grant sing her songs after it was known she committed adultery.

Deus vult
In Hoc Signo Vinces
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

This is a bit of misinterpretation. The only "test" that people are using to determine if you're Christian or not is whether or not you are celebrating the death of an innocent man. I think we can all agree that's un-Christian behavior, right? It has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with 100% of his political views
The Banned
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94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.

So a man was actually victimized for nothing other than his beliefs, and you're worried that people that agree with his beliefs may be concerned about becoming a victim? Odd take
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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The Banned said:

94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.

So a man was actually victimized for nothing other than his beliefs, and you're worried that people that agree with his beliefs may be concerned about becoming a victim? Odd take


Par for the course with that poster.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
swimmerbabe11
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https://thefederalist.com/2025/09/15/let-your-tears-over-charlie-kirk-lead-you-back-to-church/?fbclid=IwY2xjawM1Y3VleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETFPcWRoaVRXVkczMnBobVhlAR52IpTDuieFrkpLZrNYv-Pzfy1RO6ru1x18_2yuS7JFYlZJD8-K8HtUoroS_Q_aem_WbDxB0natIvonc08IU7L8g

This is lovely.
Captain Pablo
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Good grief. You're gonna tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back if you're not careful
FIDO95
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This had me in tears. This is where Charlie Kirk was directing men. To be better husbands. To be men of God.

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dermdoc
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PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

Agree. It is fascinating that this basically all comes down to LGBT issues. The pro LGBT folks say conservatives Christians are hateful because they are like Charlie and supposedly speak "hate speech". I have no idea what that means but it gets repeated a lot.
Conservative Christians believe LGBT stuff is sinful and can not understand how anyone who supports LGBT stuff can be a Christian.

For the most part, that is okay as disagreement and discussion are good in my opinion.

And 99% of folks leave it at that.

The problem is the nut cases who get triggered by this and shoot people. And I firmly believe they get triggered primarily by social media. That cat is out of the hat.

i do not know what the answer is but am praying for all.
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94chem
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The Banned said:

94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.

So a man was actually victimized for nothing other than his beliefs, and you're worried that people that agree with his beliefs may be concerned about becoming a victim? Odd take


After Columbine, there were some Christian groups that interpreted the supposed martyrdom of Rachel Scott (yes, she was a Christian), and Cassie Bernall (no, she didn't say yes) as a sign of imminent persecution, a call to war, in whatever form it needed to take. It was the sign that the world was coming for Christians. This victim mentality was used for political gain to mobilize renewed contributions, and threats of the "other" lurking around every corner.

I read Rachel's Tears from a different perspective, reading of an unspeakably evil act in a fallen world, and a gracious God who brought good to Rachel's family. The world has always hated Jesus. It's not something new. As Peter told us, we should not be surprised about what is happening as if it were strange or unexpected. Nor do we need to assign martyrdom to every evil act that occurs, in order for it to have special additional meaning. Off to BSF!
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
94chem
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Captain Pablo said:

Good grief. You're gonna tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back if you're not careful


More like a punch to the heart every time, just to get me moving. I've been whale vomit too a few times.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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Eccl 10:2
In Hoc Signo Vinces
Windy City Ag
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Quote:

And so it is with Charlie Kirk. This assault on our dignity, on our country, on a man of faith. I love this follower of Christ, but I do not accept his politics. He taught nothing new. It is the same things that I heard from the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, etc., in the 1980's and 1990's. It was based in populist "us vs. them" rhetoric then, and it's based in the same ideas now.


Fair response. It is all too human of a trait to build fallible, very human victims of crime (especially celebrity victims), into false idols. A lot of that is going around in this case.

Fenrir
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Windy City Ag said:

Quote:

And so it is with Charlie Kirk. This assault on our dignity, on our country, on a man of faith. I love this follower of Christ, but I do not accept his politics. He taught nothing new. It is the same things that I heard from the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, etc., in the 1980's and 1990's. It was based in populist "us vs. them" rhetoric then, and it's based in the same ideas now.


Fair response. It is all too human of a trait to build fallible, very human victims of crime (especially celebrity victims), into false idols. A lot of that is going around in this case.



I'm going to need to see some support for the claim that Kirk has become a "false idol". That just sounds like exaggerated rhetoric to me. I can think of maybe two instances where I have seen somebody take it beyond what seemed reasonable to me, but the rest I have seen is people mourning what they saw as a good man getting murdered for not having the right opinions and anger over seeing people celebrating his murder.
Windy City Ag
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Quote:

I'm going to need to see some support for the claim that Kirk has become a "false idol". That just sounds like exaggerated rhetoric to me. I can think of maybe two instances where I have seen somebody take it beyond what seemed reasonable to me, but the rest I have seen is people mourning what they saw as a good man getting murdered for not having the right opinions and anger over seeing people celebrating his murder.


Maybe an over the top comparison.

Now I am going by F16 and social media I see at large . . .which is almost always a huge mistake . . . .but I see folks wanting him to be beatified even through he was not Catholic. I see posters on this board comparing him to Peter and Paul and even Jesus. I see suggestions that every college campus have a statue of the man. I see people wanting to call themselves Charlie as some sort of tribute. I see folks asking for a national holiday in his name.

We as a society tend to over-emote when famous people are struck down early.

The Kobe Bryant emotions were a bit over the top to me given he was a basketball player and a complicated human

The emotional outpouring for Chris Kyle was huge and really obscured more complicated aspects of the man's life and personality.

JFK is enshrined as an inspirational politician despite having all sorts of skeletons in his closet.

It is a human trait, and over time emotions settle and people take a more nuanced and balanced view of things.
The Banned
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94chem said:

The Banned said:

94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.

So a man was actually victimized for nothing other than his beliefs, and you're worried that people that agree with his beliefs may be concerned about becoming a victim? Odd take


After Columbine, there were some Christian groups that interpreted the supposed martyrdom of Rachel Scott (yes, she was a Christian), and Cassie Bernall (no, she didn't say yes) as a sign of imminent persecution, a call to war, in whatever form it needed to take. It was the sign that the world was coming for Christians. This victim mentality was used for political gain to mobilize renewed contributions, and threats of the "other" lurking around every corner.

I read Rachel's Tears from a different perspective, reading of an unspeakably evil act in a fallen world, and a gracious God who brought good to Rachel's family. The world has always hated Jesus. It's not something new. As Peter told us, we should not be surprised about what is happening as if it were strange or unexpected. Nor do we need to assign martyrdom to every evil act that occurs, in order for it to have special additional meaning. Off to BSF!

A call to war? I can't find a single instance of anything remotely like this. I did a deep dive to see if I forgot something and came up empty. You're exaggerating .

The italicized is ironic. So they were unnecessarily worried that the world was coming for Christians, while also acknowledging the world has always hated Jesus message... in other words, Christianity. It sounds like they were just recognizing the obvious.

Charlie was very clear that his faith is what influenced his political views. He was shot for those views. If someone is shot because of their belief in Jesus and His teachings, what other word would you use for it?

Charlie was a victim. There is no reason I can see to deny this. It's not a "victim mentality" to see that the world is becoming more and more hostile to Christianity. It's just a wake up call. But when Christians wake up to that fact and try to reinstate religious beliefs into mainstream thought, they're playing the "victim card"? What exactly should they do? Stay silent?

Again, just a really odd and rather contradictory take.
The Banned
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Windy City Ag said:

Quote:

I'm going to need to see some support for the claim that Kirk has become a "false idol". That just sounds like exaggerated rhetoric to me. I can think of maybe two instances where I have seen somebody take it beyond what seemed reasonable to me, but the rest I have seen is people mourning what they saw as a good man getting murdered for not having the right opinions and anger over seeing people celebrating his murder.


Maybe an over the top comparison.

Now I am going by F16 and social media I see at large . . .which is almost always a huge mistake . . . .but I see folks wanting him to be beatified even through he was not Catholic. I see posters on this board comparing him to Peter and Paul and even Jesus. I see suggestions that every college campus have a statue of the man. I see people wanting to call themselves Charlie as some sort of tribute. I see folks asking for a national holiday in his name.

We as a society tend to over-emote when famous people are struck down early.

The Kobe Bryant emotions were a bit over the top to me given he was a basketball player and a complicated human

The emotional outpouring for Chris Kyle was huge and really obscured more complicated aspects of the man's life and personality.

JFK is enshrined as an inspirational politician despite having all sorts of skeletons in his closet.

It is a human trait, and over time emotions settle and people take a more nuanced and balanced view of things.

As was MLK. We "enshrine" these people for a reason: it helps us remember their message. It's not a wholesale acceptance of every action they ever did. Even in the Catholic Church, where there is a formal process for sainthood, it is still acknowledged that those saints were clearly not sinless.
FIDO95
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AG


The 3 minutes of this clip starting at 18:00 is amazing. From the emotion in voice of JD Vance reciting the creed to the importance of the creed as a foundational aspect of society.

Credo in unum Deum.
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Fenrir
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I think you're failing to make a distinction between mourning someone in the immediate aftermath and making them into a false idol. Being set as an example and discussions about the positives a person brought in their life is not inherently idolatry. Statues are not inherently idolatry.

The canonization discussion was one of the one I was referring to but is far and away a minority of any Charlie Kirk discussion.
Macarthur
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I looked through the search function and did not find a post about Melissa Hortman. I would hope you have the same feelings about her horrible murder. She was, by all accounts, a wonderful woman who led her kids girl scout troops and taught Sunday school at her church.

I get it that she was not a big national name like CK, but I think she deserves mention in this context.
AGC
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AG
Macarthur said:

I looked through the search function and did not find a post about Melissa Hortman. I would hope you have the same feelings about her horrible murder. She was, by all accounts, a wonderful woman who led her kids girl scout troops and taught Sunday school at her church.

I get it that she was not a big national name like CK, but I think she deserves mention in this context.


Please go the next step and make this post less of a thread derail: which bible verses struck you most upon her death? How did it impact your church community? Why didn't you start a thread like this when it happened?
Macarthur
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Sorry if it's a derail.

2 things:

I'm not a Christian so the Bible didn't enter my mind when i learned of her murder.

Secondly, I've not been on the boards as much the last few months, but I probably wouldn't have anyway because of point #1.
94chem
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The Banned said:

94chem said:

The Banned said:

94chem said:

PabloSerna said:

For his mourners, I will be interested to see where this goes regarding peace and charity towards those they believe are in opposition to whom Charlie Kirk sought to debate.

From what I have seen, it has triggered a backlash and is now some touchstone about how Christian someone is or not.

I pray they will have the courage to not play the victim card.

So a man was actually victimized for nothing other than his beliefs, and you're worried that people that agree with his beliefs may be concerned about becoming a victim? Odd take


After Columbine, there were some Christian groups that interpreted the supposed martyrdom of Rachel Scott (yes, she was a Christian), and Cassie Bernall (no, she didn't say yes) as a sign of imminent persecution, a call to war, in whatever form it needed to take. It was the sign that the world was coming for Christians. This victim mentality was used for political gain to mobilize renewed contributions, and threats of the "other" lurking around every corner.

I read Rachel's Tears from a different perspective, reading of an unspeakably evil act in a fallen world, and a gracious God who brought good to Rachel's family. The world has always hated Jesus. It's not something new. As Peter told us, we should not be surprised about what is happening as if it were strange or unexpected. Nor do we need to assign martyrdom to every evil act that occurs, in order for it to have special additional meaning. Off to BSF!

A call to war? I can't find a single instance of anything remotely like this. I did a deep dive to see if I forgot something and came up empty. You're exaggerating .

The italicized is ironic. So they were unnecessarily worried that the world was coming for Christians, while also acknowledging the world has always hated Jesus message... in other words, Christianity. It sounds like they were just recognizing the obvious.

Charlie was very clear that his faith is what influenced his political views. He was shot for those views. If someone is shot because of their belief in Jesus and His teachings, what other word would you use for it?

Charlie was a victim. There is no reason I can see to deny this. It's not a "victim mentality" to see that the world is becoming more and more hostile to Christianity. It's just a wake up call. But when Christians wake up to that fact and try to reinstate religious beliefs into mainstream thought, they're playing the "victim card"? What exactly should they do? Stay silent?

Again, just a really odd and rather contradictory take.


Google "Ron Luce response to Columbine"

There was a movement led by middle aged adults that fetishized martyrdom among young people. Luce had a massive ministry and was the leading proponent.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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