Christian nationalism

8,902 Views | 193 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Zobel
Patriot25
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Christian nationalism is very loosely defined and those who advocate for it are so miniscule in numbers that it's not remotely relevant in 2025 American culture.

As a Christian I view "Christian nationalism" as the desire to live in a Christian nation, but NOT by force. After all, Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.

I guess it can be said that God is a "Christian nationalist". Heaven has gates and walls and only followers of Christ, aka "Christians", can enter.

Thoughts?
Sapper Redux
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Patriot25 said:

Christian nationalism is very loosely defined and those who advocate for it are so miniscule in numbers that it's not remotely relevant in 2025 American culture.

As a Christian I view "Christian nationalism" as the desire to live in a Christian nation, but NOT by force. After all, Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.

I guess it can be said that God is a "Christian nationalist". Heaven has gates and walls and only followers of Christ, aka "Christians", can enter.

Thoughts?


Not relevant? Really? Because the Director of Management and Budget and one of the Trump campaign's architects, Russell Vought has openly identified himself as a Christian nationalist. Hegseth's favorite pastor is a Christian nationalist. And Trump's entire faith counsel is Christian nationalist without a single non-Christian on it. You can view Christian nationalism however you like, but force of law and brute force are obviously part of the equation to reach that white Christian utopia where non-Christians are second-class citizens.
Patriot25
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Sapper Redux said:

Patriot25 said:

Christian nationalism is very loosely defined and those who advocate for it are so miniscule in numbers that it's not remotely relevant in 2025 American culture.

As a Christian I view "Christian nationalism" as the desire to live in a Christian nation, but NOT by force. After all, Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.

I guess it can be said that God is a "Christian nationalist". Heaven has gates and walls and only followers of Christ, aka "Christians", can enter.

Thoughts?


Not relevant? Really? Because the Director of Management and Budget and one of the Trump campaign's architects, Russell Vought has openly identified himself as a Christian nationalist. Hegseth's favorite pastor is a Christian nationalist. And Trump's entire faith counsel is Christian nationalist without a single non-Christian on it. You can view Christian nationalism however you like, but force of law and brute force are obviously part of the equation to reach that white Christian utopia where non-Christians are second-class citizens.


Who said anything about a 'WHITE Christian utopia"?

Of the Trump people that you called out, do you have any citations to support your claim that they want to turn the U.S. into a Christian nationalist nation?

Thanks in advance!
KingofHazor
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Something to keep in mind is that Marxists are "internationalists" and any mention of "nationalism" makes them froth at the mouth.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

Patriot25 said:

Christian nationalism is very loosely defined and those who advocate for it are so miniscule in numbers that it's not remotely relevant in 2025 American culture.

As a Christian I view "Christian nationalism" as the desire to live in a Christian nation, but NOT by force. After all, Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.

I guess it can be said that God is a "Christian nationalist". Heaven has gates and walls and only followers of Christ, aka "Christians", can enter.

Thoughts?


Not relevant? Really? Because the Director of Management and Budget and one of the Trump campaign's architects, Russell Vought has openly identified himself as a Christian nationalist. Hegseth's favorite pastor is a Christian nationalist. And Trump's entire faith counsel is Christian nationalist without a single non-Christian on it. You can view Christian nationalism however you like, but force of law and brute force are obviously part of the equation to reach that white Christian utopia where non-Christians are second-class citizens.


The left should have really tried harder to not make it so obvious they're demonically driven psychopaths who if you leave alone for 2 seconds will butcher unborn children, chemically sterilize children and/or physically mutilate them for social media updoots and maybe such drastic action wouldn't be necessary.
Frok
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AG
Christian nationalism is a term the left uses to discredit people they disagree with and stoke fear amongst their followers.
PabloSerna
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AG
Already with the "left" moniker? Let's at least try to debate without drawing lines.

Maybe, just maybe- the idea posed by the OP, that God would identify as a Christian nationalist deserves a response? Allow me.

I would say God is more of a universalist. God is not about any one nation. God is the God of all or there is no God.

Next?
Patriot25
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PabloSerna said:

Already with the "left" moniker? Let's at least try to debate without drawing lines.

Maybe, just maybe- the idea posed by the OP, that God would identify as a Christian nationalist deserves a response? Allow me.

I would say God is more of a universalist. God is not about any one nation. God is the God of all or there is no God.

Next?


I like your opinion but, unfortunately, as a Christian I have to go with what Jesus said, which is that only those who follow Christ get into Heaven.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 8:12
...while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Sapper Redux
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KingofHazor said:

Something to keep in mind is that Marxists are "internationalists" and any mention of "nationalism" makes them froth at the mouth.


Sorry, who here is a Marxist? It's amusing to see certain people on the right scream about the word fascist while attacking anyone slightly left of the right wing as a Marxist.
Sapper Redux
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Frok said:

Christian nationalism is a term the left uses to discredit people they disagree with and stoke fear amongst their followers.


It's a term used by plenty of self-described Christian Nationalists. Russell Vought has described himself as a Christian Nationalist.
Frok
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

Frok said:

Christian nationalism is a term the left uses to discredit people they disagree with and stoke fear amongst their followers.


It's a term used by plenty of self-described Christian Nationalists. Russell Vought has described himself as a Christian Nationalist.


I'm sure there are, but by and large it's a term thrown out loosely and broadly, much like the Marxist term you addressed above.
PabloSerna
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AG
You said it - Kingdom. There is no nation that Jesus speaks of when he preached. Again, God is for all, but not all will enter, so like a good shepherd he will leave the 99 and seek out the 1. Quite clear.
Patriot25
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PabloSerna said:

You said it - Kingdom. There is no nation that Jesus speaks of when he preached. Again, God is for all, but not all will enter, so like a good shepherd he will leave the 99 and seek out the 1. Quite clear.


I share your belief that all who ever existed will be in God's Kingdom but they will ALL follow Christ PRIOR to entering.
Zobel
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Being a Christian is a nation unto itself. That's what the scriptures say - "you are a chosen race (genos), a royal priesthood, a holy nation (ethnos), a people (laos) for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."

That identity transcends blood, or place of birth, or the modern definitions of race.

But it absolutely is a nation, likewise not defined by any secular border or secular power structure. Our King is Christ.

Like the ancient letter to Diognetus says

Quote:

Christians are indistinguishable from other men either by nationality, language or customs. They do not inhabit separate cities of their own, or speak a strange dialect, or follow some outlandish way of life. Their teaching is not based upon reveries inspired by the curiosity of men. Unlike some other people, they champion no purely human doctrine. With regard to dress, food and manner of life in general, they follow the customs of whatever city they happen to be living in, whether it is Greek or foreign.

And yet there is something extraordinary about their lives. They live in their own countries as though they were only passing through. They play their full role as citizens, but labor under all the disabilities of aliens. Any country can be their homeland, but for them their homeland, wherever it may be, is a foreign country.

PabloSerna
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AG
Jesus speaks about the Kingdom more than a nation. When speaking about nations it is clear he is speaking about certain groups.

Saying God is a "Christian Nationalist" distorts the truth that Jesus came to proclaim, that of the Kingdom of God. Certainly a people set apart (holy) but a people from all nations.
PabloSerna
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AG
Patriot25 said:

PabloSerna said:

You said it - Kingdom. There is no nation that Jesus speaks of when he preached. Again, God is for all, but not all will enter, so like a good shepherd he will leave the 99 and seek out the 1. Quite clear.


I share your belief that all who ever existed will be in God's Kingdom but they will ALL follow Christ PRIOR to entering.


On that we can agree. That whether in this lifetime or at their hour of personal judgement, all will behold the glory of God, their lives, and given that choice. God is merciful we cannot forget.
FIDO95
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AG


Listen to the next 2-3 minutes of the video above. This is the most concise reason for the rise of the Christian nationalist movement. What I would add is that people are not just "inoculating themselves" against Islam but that they are rejecting to secular religions of globalism, Marxism, and climate worship.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Patriot25
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PabloSerna said:

Jesus speaks about the Kingdom more than a nation. When speaking about nations it is clear he is speaking about certain groups.

Saying God is a "Christian Nationalist" distorts the truth that Jesus came to proclaim, that of the Kingdom of God. Certainly a people set apart (holy) but a people from all nations.


How many non-followers of Christ will there be in God's Kingdom? Will there be Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and Buddhist communities in his Kingdom?
Zobel
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AG
I didn't say God was a Christian nationalist.

Your last sentence is incongruent with the scriptures. Here there is no Jew nor Greek. People cease to be what they were and become something new - a new creation. They ceased to be Greeks and became Christians; they had to do this because the pagan way of life they left behind was what made them Greek. You're reading modern notions of nationality and ethnicity backward and it is an error.

We've completely lost the uniting feature of Christendom and have subordinated it back to ethnic and tribal affiliations under the guise of secular authority structures. It is an unmaking. There's no accident this unmaking is happening as the west is de-Christianizing.

There is one nation chosen and called to be the people of God - Christians. This is our first identity. Our cultural inheritance, heritage, patriotism, love for where we live, this is our second. In this way modernism errs in both directions. Some of the modern notions of Christian nationalism are as much a distortion as the arguments made to oppose them.

In other words if you don't understand Christianity as an ethnicity, as a people group, you're not aligned with St Peter. If your understanding of Christian nationalism is something that applies only to America over against, say, North Korea, you're not aligned with St Paul.
Zobel
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A lot of this is just the modern idiotic way of argumentation which is using an under defined term and then pretending you don't understand how it's being used to your advantage.
Patriot25
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Zobel said:

A lot of this is just the modern idiotic way of argumentation which is using an under defined term and then pretending you don't understand how it's being used to your advantage.


The "Christian Nationalist" boogie man is another hateful hoax by the Godless left. Christian nationalism isn't a thing.
KingofHazor
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Something to keep in mind is that Marxists are "internationalists" and any mention of "nationalism" makes them froth at the mouth.


Sorry, who here is a Marxist? It's amusing to see certain people on the right scream about the word fascist while attacking anyone slightly left of the right wing as a Marxist.

Who did I say was a Marxist? I figured you'd react defensively. The shot hit too close to home?
Zobel
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AG
See what I mean about playing dumb?

It is a thing. There are people who call themselves Christian nationalists and they mean very specific things by it. The problem is there's no universal definition, so you get to play games like this.
Silent For Too Long
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Sapper Redux said:

KingofHazor said:

Something to keep in mind is that Marxists are "internationalists" and any mention of "nationalism" makes them froth at the mouth.


Sorry, who here is a Marxist? It's amusing to see certain people on the right scream about the word fascist while attacking anyone slightly left of the right wing as a Marxist.


The difference is Marxism is a legitimate thing on the left. I've seen college students proudly quote "Chairman Mao" in defense of political violence. Ya'll are about to elect a bona fide Marxist to mayor in the biggest city in America. Your last presidential candidate is the daughter of an actual Marxist.

The left has legitimate problem with Marxism being seen as a viable pursuit right now.

It's not even remotely the same with fascism on the right. Dip****s like Feuntes are mocked and pushed to the fringe by mainstream conservatives. Not being elected mayor or put on a pedestal.
PabloSerna
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I was referring to the OP's proposition that God is a Christian Nationalist is a distortion of the gospel proclaimed by Jesus that the Kingdom of God is at hand.

This Kingdom is made up of all people, from many nations- that is the good news! I think we are saying the same thing, because Paul was not saying we are no longer male or female, but that those differences would no longer keep us from being adopted sons and daughters.

To be clear, my definition of "nation" is what I would say most ascribe to- a place where people have a common language, culture, politics, etc. Nationalism then is a variation on that understanding. That Jesus choose the word "Kingdom" is not insignificant, rather important in the bigger picture. To me, "Christian Nationalism" is another way to separate us along geographic and political lines- I'm glad Jesus avoided such characterization.
747Ag
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AG
Quo Vadis? said:

Sapper Redux said:

Patriot25 said:

Christian nationalism is very loosely defined and those who advocate for it are so miniscule in numbers that it's not remotely relevant in 2025 American culture.

As a Christian I view "Christian nationalism" as the desire to live in a Christian nation, but NOT by force. After all, Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.

I guess it can be said that God is a "Christian nationalist". Heaven has gates and walls and only followers of Christ, aka "Christians", can enter.

Thoughts?


Not relevant? Really? Because the Director of Management and Budget and one of the Trump campaign's architects, Russell Vought has openly identified himself as a Christian nationalist. Hegseth's favorite pastor is a Christian nationalist. And Trump's entire faith counsel is Christian nationalist without a single non-Christian on it. You can view Christian nationalism however you like, but force of law and brute force are obviously part of the equation to reach that white Christian utopia where non-Christians are second-class citizens.


The left should have really tried harder to not make it so obvious they're demonically driven psychopaths who if you leave alone for 2 seconds will butcher unborn children, chemically sterilize children and/or physically mutilate them for social media updoots and maybe such drastic action wouldn't be necessary.

4 hours of listening fun!

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA7QlYW7j6-zzYDPHdkVC3iY4XfQ0KYm7&si=vekDqpZB_EF9Cnfc
KingofHazor
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Acts 17:26
In Acts 17:26, the apostle Paul speaks to the philosophers in Athens and describes God as the creator of the world. The verse states, "From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands". This indicates that God determined the geographical boundaries and historical duration of nations for his purposes.


Deuteronomy 32:8
Deuteronomy 32:8 is part of the "Song of Moses" and speaks about God's faithfulness and sovereignty. The verse says, "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel". This verse relates to the dispersion of nations after the Tower of Babel, where God scattered humanity and set territorial boundaries.

There is no question that today's national borders bear little to no similarity to those that existed at the time of Acts and Deuteronomy. But it seems fairly clear from the Bible that God created nations and established their borders. So to conclude that Christianity cannot be nationalistic seems unBiblical.
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

This Kingdom...That Jesus choose the word "Kingdom" is not insignificant, rather important in the bigger picture.

I agree that the word matters, but I think the general understanding of "kingdom" is wrong, so the conclusion is often wrong. "Basileia" means kingdom in the sense of the reign or authority of a ruler. The older sense of "kingdom" retains this, where -dom comes from judgment, the judgment of the king (his authority). It's not strictly a place, it is a reality that maps a place. So the kingdom of an earthly ruler is the place where his judgment carries authority, it is the place where his reign is effected.

The Lord has no limit to His authority; so His kingdom, His reign, is eternal and everywhere. It is not "made up of people" because it precedes people. It is not constituted by a group of people, it isn't made real by overlap with a physical place where His authority is supreme. It makes far more sense to understand it as His reign, which is more of an absolute, and less about place or being made real by created things.

This is the same as Psalms - "Your (reign) is an everlasting (reign)" - "The LORD has established His throne in heaven, and His (reign) rules over all." Daniel shows us this meaning - "And to him was given dominion and glory and a (reign), that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his (reign) one that shall not be destroyed." Everywhere "kingdom" I put reign is the same in the Greek.

He is the king of kings, the king over all the earth. "I will make the nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession." -- "Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!"

In the end the two become one - "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." But this doesn't mean the reign or kingdom of the Lord changed. It isn't as if He weren't king over all the earth and became the king. His reign is eternal, His kingdom is eternal.

He reigns over all people, He is the God of all mankind, the savior of all mankind, especially those who believe. He becomes the king over all on the cross in a sense because He draws all mankind to Himself. He becomes the king of men because He became Man. The kingdom is brought to us, we are included as heirs. Our relationship to the kingdom is what changes, not His kingdom. We humans do not make up the kingdom of heaven!

However, we are drawn in through Christ, and it is in Christ that there are no differences between us. Israel was created as a new nation -- not one of the seventy in the able of nations -- to serve as a nation of priests. This mission never changed, except that Israel continued to become the Christians. Christians are Israel in continuity, with a new and better priesthood. Just as Israel existed before Levi, it exists after the Levitical priesthood, fulfilled in Moses. Just as "a mixed multitude" went out of Egypt to become Israelites and receive the covenant under the blood, a mixed multitude reconstitute Israel from the gentiles, resurrecting the dry bones of the tribes. And through that, All Israel saves the whole world. We gentiles were grafted in to become part of Israel.

If we are of Abraham, heirs to the promises of Abraham, and Abraham's offspring are Israel, how could we not be a nation? If we are part of All Israel, and as St Paul says, "our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" how are we not that nation of priests, the people called to God and chosen?

You can't be a nation and not be a nation. You can't be a people and not be a people.

We are a singular nation of people, comprised of people from many nations, retaining those unique and beautiful features. Just like Israel was comprised of distinct tribes, All Israel is now filled with people from all nations, and we are His inheritance from all nations. It is much more profound than saying nothing prevents us from being adopted as heirs - this is true! But it is more than that. It is a fulfillment of the purpose to which Israel was called, which was to save the world through Christ Jesus.

Quote:

To be clear, my definition of "nation" is what I would say most ascribe to- a place where people have a common language, culture, politics, etc.

Yes. I mean, that's what the scripture say too, a people who have a certain way of living in the world (a nomos). That's what an ethnos is. Today we use ethnos to describe genetic traits, but in the ancient world they had only a fuzzy notion of heritability and no understanding of genetics. The ethnos or nation was defined by its nomos or way of life. Following the Torah made you a Jew. Following the way of life of Athens is what made you Athenian. That's why you could be adopted into a tribe and truly become part of that nation.

So if the authors of the scripture knew that, and still referred to Christians as a single ethnos, a single nation - what then?

Quote:

"Christian Nationalism" is another way to separate us along geographic and political lines

Christian Nationalism means whatever people want it to mean. For some it means they want white people to be the majority group in the US. For others it means they want Christianity to be the dominant religion. For others it means they are both Christians and patriots. It's a useless term without further definition.
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

But it seems fairly clear from the Bible that God created nations and established their borders. So to conclude that Christianity cannot be nationalistic seems unBiblical.

??

this conversation is such a beating. "Nationalism is an idea or movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state."

In other words, nationalism is a fundamentally modern concept contingent on the modern idea of the state. It has no real relationship with the ethnos of the scriptures.
PabloSerna
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AG
Appreciate you taking the time to walk us through your understanding. Allow me to dig a little deeper.

I am coming at this from a covenant theological perspective. Where God began with Adam (marriage), Noah (household), Abraham (tribe), Moses (nation), David (kingdom), then Jesus (church).

It seems to me that "nationalism" as I understand it - is a step backwards.
KingofHazor
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Zobel said:


Quote:

But it seems fairly clear from the Bible that God created nations and established their borders. So to conclude that Christianity cannot be nationalistic seems unBiblical.

??

this conversation is such a beating. "Nationalism is an idea or movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state."

In other words, nationalism is a fundamentally modern concept contingent on the modern idea of the state. It has no real relationship with the ethnos of the scriptures.

That is not the correct or the exclusive definition of nationalism.

Maybe the conversation wouldn't be such a beating if you didn't assume that your assumptions and conclusions are correct, and approached this more as a conversation.
Zobel
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AG
Quote:

A lot of this is just the modern idiotic way of argumentation which is using an under defined term and then pretending you don't understand how it's being used to your advantage.


KingofHazor
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OK, so what? You used an incorrect definition to try to make your point. You're guilty of exactly what you're complaining of.

And if these threads are a beating, why do you stay in them? And perhaps you could share with us your preferred rules of discourse so that we can make sure not to hurt your feelings? Or would you prefer that you be the only one to provide an opinion?
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

I am coming at this from a covenant theological perspective. Where God began with Adam (marriage), Noah (household), Abraham (tribe), Moses (nation), David (kingdom), then Jesus (church).

I don't understand this.

Adam was for all mankind, was a kind of representative of Man. Noah was the new Adam and received the same instructions as Adam after the flood un-created the world to an extent. In this way the righteous Noah foreshadows the true New Adam in Christ Jesus.

The promises to Abraham were for all mankind - "in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed". Israel's promises through Moses were a continuation of that, they were the priest-nation that represented mankind before God, and God to mankind. In this regard Christ is the recapitulation of Israel, the ultimate priest.

"Assembly" is the same word as "Church" and is used throughout the Torah. The Church is the continuation of Israel.

Zobel
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AG
Quote:

You're guilty of exactly what you're complaining of.

actually, i did the literal opposite of what i said because rather than playing dumb i provided a definition and showed how that definition is unrelated to the word translated as "nation" from the scriptures.

the reason the conversation is a beating is specifically because you're not doing what I did, which is to define the way you're using a deliberately vague word.

the definition i used wasn't incorrect. feel free to pick any definition you like, explain how you're using the word, and go for it.

here are some options:
"Nationalism is primarily a political principal which holds that the political and national movement should be congruent". Nations and Nationalism
https://books.google.com/books?id=XPHpUSUAsF0C&pg=PA1&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

here's a dictionary
Quote:

an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups

support for and promotion of the political independence or self-determination of a nation or people

a nationalist movement or government

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

and here's a nuanced disambiguation discussing the system of beliefs or philosophy as opposed to the political movements and psychological disposition (i.e., something synonymous with patriotism).
Quote:

"Nationalism" is a word with a number of different meanings. It may refer to a political movement, to a psychological disposition (devotion to one's nation), or to a system of beliefs. The focus here will be on the third of these, and the philosophical questions that these beliefs give rise to. Nationalism as a system of beliefs, or ideology, comes in many different shapes and forms, and can be combined with other belief systems. Thus one can be a conservative nationalist or a socialist nationalist; one can also be a Christian nationalist, an Arab nationalist, and so forth. This article will for the most part tackle questions that arise for all types of nationalism, whatever their specific character.

What, then, are the elements that all forms of nationalism have in common? Arguably, there are three central beliefs, which together constitute the idea of nationality (Miller 1995: 1012). The first is that nations are real and valuable. When a person thinks that they belong to a particular nation, and it matters to them that they do (so it would be a bad thing if the nation were to dissolve or be destroyed), they are not merely being deluded or irrational. The second is that nations are ethically significant, in the sense that people who belong to them have special duties to their compatriots that are not owed to human beings in general. The third is that nations are politically significant, and can make special claims to be self-determining, so the political architecture of the world should be designed in such a way as to allow every nation to achieve self-determination in an appropriate form (which might or might not mean having a state of its own).

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/

you might note that the definition i offered appears in all three respects.

Quote:

And if these threads are a beating, why do you stay in them? And perhaps you could share with us your preferred rules of discourse so that we can make sure not to hurt your feelings? Or would you prefer that you be the only one to provide an opinion?

lol, sure

my preferred rules of discourse is that people engage in good faith, don't assume their own pet definitions of words are absolute, and are willing to support their opinions, statements, and assertions with either evidence or rational or spiritual arguments.
 
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