Is that the actual "body and blood" or the symbolic "body and blood?"

Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy said:

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Is that the actual "body and blood" or the symbolic "body and blood?"

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Ok well to understand this passage I would suggest reading what inspired its author first. This passage relies heavily on the covenant established on sinai to understand the connection. Ultimately, there are at least two reasons to think the feasting in metaphorical. There are a ton more...

First, blood features both covenants and Hebrews explicitly calls on Exodus 24 to explain how a new covenant is inaugurated by Christ's blood, which the supper proclaims. At Sinai: "Behold, the blood of the covenant" (Exod 24:8). At the Supper: "This is my blood of the covenant" (Matt 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25). Hebrews 9:1822 explicitly recalls Exodus 24 to explain how the New Covenant is inaugurated by Christ's blood, which the Supper proclaims (1 Cor 11:26).

Sinai featured a "meal before God" Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders "saw" God and "ate and drank." This happens after the covenant is ratified with blood (Exod 24:38). Seeing God (not his face btw) was like food and drink to them. This was not a literal meal because Deut. 9:9 and 9:18 say the prophet did not eat bread or drink water.

Second, the New Testament itself calls believers the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:27. If this is true then, and the eating is also literal, then Christ is calling believers to literally eat themselves. Does not make sense that way. The eating is clearly metaphorical. Never found someone who actually wants to practice what they preach in this regard. Believers are the body of Christ, if the eating is literal, Christ is calling on people to eat themselves... again does not make sense.

Which is why at the last supper he didn't pass around a loaf of bread but actually cut his flesh off his body and shared it and instead of a cup of wine, he pour blood into it from when he cut himself and passed that around.

Totally agree that Jesus means what he says, but he also didn't not literally pass around his body and blood. He did literally break his body on the cross and shed his blood for my sins. But he did not pass around meat and blood in the upper room instead of bread and wine.

Pro Sandy said:

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Which is why at the last supper he didn't pass around a loaf of bread but actually cut his flesh off his body and shared it and instead of a cup of wine, he pour blood into it from when he cut himself and passed that around.

Totally agree that Jesus means what he says, but he also didn't not literally pass around his body and blood. He did literally break his body on the cross and shed his blood for my sins. But he did not pass around meat and blood in the upper room instead of bread and wine.

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Did He mean it literally when He said to gouge out an eye or cut off a hand if it causes you to sin? Did He mean it literally when He said lusting after a woman in your heart is = to adultery? Did He mean it literally when He said the apostles will be given the power to bind and lose sins to such a degree that Heaven will honor their binding?
Where do we draw that seemingly arbitrary line of what is literal and what is figurative?

Meanwhile, there is one thing EVERY Christian can agree on, and that is that Jesus never said Scripture is our only infallible authority. He didn't leave us a book to read and hope we arrive at the same conclusions. And disagreements like this are the reason why

Faithful Ag said:

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Pretty sure Jesus meant what he said. Jesus himself insists his flesh and blood are true food and true drink. He tells them plainly and repeatedly. Jesus did not mince words when teaching the disciples, and He did not soften His teaching when it offended them. It's the only time we see followers abandon Him and His response to that was to double down with His Apostles daring them to also leave and no longer follow Him. There is nothing more Jesus could have done or said to make sure His apostles rightly understood His literal meaning - and for the next 1500 years this belief was universally held by all Christians.

Jesus Himself addresses the OT types being fulfilled by Him in John 6 and then at the Last Supper.

Quote:

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John 6:
Jesus then said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, " from heaven." They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Jesus said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever FEEDS (to gnaw) on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

…After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

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You are missing key distinctions. Moses brought down the bread from heaven; Moses did not give the bread. Giving the bread and bringing the bread down are distinct acts. If you read the OT closely it comports. God provided bread and wine to drink, even before Jesus communed with his disciples. Proverbs 9:4 see also Ecclesiastes 8:15. Look even your own translation distinguishes bread from manna. Indeed the bread and manna are different. Even Jesus acknowledges this. He says Your fathers ate the manna and died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

The bread from heaven Jesus talked about and fed to the disciples was different from the bread Jesus compared himself to. Jesus does not say he is the bread of heaven. HE SAID HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE. He said he is the living bread from heaven. Again, living bread from heaven and bread from heaven are distinct concepts. Indeed, God brings forth bread from heaven Psalms 78:24-25 and he brings forth bread from the earth. Psalms 104:14-15. The word commonly translated as food there can also be translated generally as bread. The bread from the earth gives life, but not immortality. Living bread from heaven is more consistent with bread sent from heaven to the earth and brought forth from the earth as described in Psalm 104:14-15.

When Jesus is says something is his flesh he is not saying it to mean his own body. This could be said the same way as a farmer would talk about his animal. A farmer could say "That cow is my flesh". Indeed it is, the farmer owns the flesh on the cow. This is exactly how Jesus talks here, he is talking about flesh he has a share in or ownership of, but which is not his own body.

Your own scriptures teach those who eat of wisdom will hunger even more and more and those who drink of wisdom will thirst more. Sirach 24:20-22. Your own wisdoms and your own fathers taught Jesus was God's wisdom. These are irreconcilable. Jesus cannot both cause those who eat of him to thirst for more and never thirst again.

PS You still haven't addressed my concern about Jesus saying his body is the church etc.

codker92 said:

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You are missing key distinctions. Moses brought down the bread from heaven; Moses did not give the bread. Giving the bread and bringing the bread down are distinct acts. If you read the OT closely it comports. God provided bread and wine to drink, even before Jesus communed with his disciples. Proverbs 9:4 see also Ecclesiastes 8:15. Look even your own translation distinguishes bread from manna. Indeed the bread and manna are different. Even Jesus acknowledges this. He says Your fathers ate the manna and died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

The bread from heaven Jesus talked about and fed to the disciples was different from the bread Jesus compared himself to. Jesus does not say he is the bread of heaven. HE SAID HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE. He said he is the living bread from heaven. Again, living bread from heaven and bread from heaven are distinct concepts. Indeed, God brings forth bread from heaven Psalms 78:24-25 and he brings forth bread from the earth. Psalms 104:14-15. The word commonly translated as food there can also be translated generally as bread. The bread from the earth gives life, but not immortality. Living bread from heaven is more consistent with bread sent from heaven to the earth and brought forth from the earth as described in Psalm 104:14-15.

When Jesus is says something is his flesh he is not saying it to mean his own body. This could be said the same way as a farmer would talk about his animal. A farmer could say "That cow is my flesh". Indeed it is, the farmer owns the flesh on the cow. This is exactly how Jesus talks here, he is talking about flesh he has a share in or ownership of, but which is not his own body.

Your own scriptures teach those who eat of wisdom will hunger even more and more and those who drink of wisdom will thirst more. Sirach 24:20-22. Your own wisdoms and your own fathers taught Jesus was God's wisdom. These are irreconcilable. Jesus cannot both cause those who eat of him to thirst for more and never thirst again.

PS You still haven't addressed my concern about Jesus saying his body is the church etc.

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Yes, unfortunately I am not following the point you are attempting to make. At all. I humbly must ask (and I mean no disrespect), but do you consider yourself a Christian? I'm genuinely curious as you make references to "my own scriptures" which I am trying to understand, and your theology seems quite heterodox.

You seem hyper fixated on distinctions and differences in the references to the bread and you are creating a straw man in the process and it's non-sensical.

In the OT we see God using bread and wine as a form of sacrificial offering beginning with Malchizedek in Genesis. God, not Moses, rained down bread (manna) and flesh (quail) during the time of Moses while the Jews wandered the desert. God required the Bread of the Presence (and the flagons of wine) to be perpetually due before the Lord in the Tabernacle. All of the was a prefigurement of Christ and how God would ultimately choose to commune with his people. There is perfect continuity from Genesis through the OT pointing us to Jesus. Malchizedek, the Passover, the Manna, the Bread of the Presence…ALL of it points us to Jesus and His blood and flesh sacrifice for us on the Cross which is made present to us physically and spiritually in the Eucharist today in the same way it was given to the Apostles at the Last Supper.

You talk about bread from heaven and living bread from heaven as two completely different concepts, and then bread from earth that gives life but not immortality and somehow that does damage to the Eucharistic theology? Jesus literally came down from Heaven and at the same he was fully man (from the earth).

You say this:

Quote:

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This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

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if this is your position I really don't even know where to begin. The Eleven Apostles are more alive today than they were while embodied on earth. Do you believe in the resurrection and eternal life? Do you believe in the communion of saints? Do you believe in the afterlife? I'm truly perplexed.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Same to you!

Furthermore, although we see differently on the details, our weekly Lord's Supper is really the climax of the Sunday gathering (I think we would find common ground here) versus a monthly or quarterly addition to the service, which is what I was used to.

If you're in any church that isn't emphasizing WEEKLY confession and taking of the elements, you are missing out.

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Yeah James 5:16 was recently just glossed over in church. lol.

Jesus is God and what God says IS!

God spoke the universe and everything in it into existence. I think he can handle changing the substance of bread and wine into his body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Back to the original post and the operative words of John 6, I think the words of verse 57 are worth studying (ALL CAPS):

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. AS THE LIVING FATHER SENT ME, AND I LIVE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER, SO HE WHO EATS ME WILL LIVE BECAUSE OF ME. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um. (John 6:53-55, 57-59, RSV-CE)

The Second Person of the Trinity is eternally begotten of the First Person of the Trinity (the living Father). God the Father sent the eternally begotten Second Person of the Trinity to take on a human body and nature in order to save the world FROM the wages of sin and FOR everlasting union with the Trinity. How does the Second Person of the Trinity become incarnate of the Virgin Mary? By a mystery of divine power.

Jesus the God-man, fully God as the Second Person of the Trinity and fully man as the son of Mary, LIVES BECAUSE OF THE FATHER, which is to say Jesus Christ himself, fully God and fully man, is result of a divine mystery.

In the same way that Jesus Christ lives because of the Father, so too we who eat the body and blood of Jesus Christ will live BECAUSE OF HIM, that is to say those who eat his flesh and drink his blood, both of which were mysteriously incarnated in his person by the divine power of God, will live by the same divine mystery that takes place in the most blessed sacrament, by, through and under which the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is made mysteriously present for us in the bread and wine.

Jesus is saying that just as He has life (divine life) from the Father, those who "feed on" Him will have life (divine life) because of Him. "Feeding on" Jesus refers to the deep, intimate communion with Him offered in the Eucharist. Through this sacred meal, believers partake in the divine life, drawing spiritual nourishment and true life from Christ.

Jesus is preparing His followers to understand the mystery of the Eucharist that he will institute in the Upper Room, where He will offer His own Body and Blood as spiritual sustenance. The emphasis is on the abiding presence of Christ and the grace that flows from partaking in the Eucharist.

Catholics (and I think the Orthodox) would agree that the Eucharist is a symbol, but it is not only a symbol. It is both a symbol AND a source of divine life, which is grace. The life that Jesus speaks of is not merely physical but eternal life, an everlasting communion with God. By feeding on Christ, believers receive the gift of eternal life, becoming united with Him in a relationship that brings salvation and spiritual fulfillment.

AS THE LIVING FATHER SENT ME, AND I LIVE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER, SO HE WHO EATS ME WILL LIVE BECAUSE OF ME.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Is it not worth pointing out that the two men who initiated the Protestant revolution both maintained what many of their progeny today would consider a Catholic or psuedo-Catholic understanding of the Real Presence?

Luther called his new theology of the Eucharist "consubstantiation" and Calvin tried to split the difference between Zwingli's pure symbolism and Luther's view but had his own novel understanding. Calvin emphasized a "real spiritual presence" in the Eucharist. For him, the Eucharist was truly a means of spiritual nourishment by which believers partake in the Body and Blood of Christ through the Holy Spirit. He believed that Christ is present in a spiritual, not physical, manner, and that the faithful are spiritually lifted to partake in the Body and Blood of Christ while maintaining unity with Him.

Luther and Calvin's ideas reflected a very different understanding of the Eucharist from what your typical "non-denominational" Protestant or Southern Baptist believes today.

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I very much agree Christ is present and it is spiritual food. Many posts by me years ago on the Methodist position of it being a holy mystery and the real presence of Christ.

I disagree strongly with Protestants that the "symbolism only" position. It is anything by just a mere symbol. Christ is with us and we are with all believers of all time when we commute at the Lord's table.

Quo Vadis? said:

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codker92 said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Pretty sure Jesus meant what he said. Jesus himself insists his flesh and blood are true food and true drink. He tells them plainly and repeatedly. Jesus did not mince words when teaching the disciples, and He did not soften His teaching when it offended them. It's the only time we see followers abandon Him and His response to that was to double down with His Apostles daring them to also leave and no longer follow Him. There is nothing more Jesus could have done or said to make sure His apostles rightly understood His literal meaning - and for the next 1500 years this belief was universally held by all Christians.

Jesus Himself addresses the OT types being fulfilled by Him in John 6 and then at the Last Supper.

Quote:

---

John 6:
Jesus then said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, " from heaven." They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Jesus said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever FEEDS (to gnaw) on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

…After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

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You are missing key distinctions. Moses brought down the bread from heaven; Moses did not give the bread. Giving the bread and bringing the bread down are distinct acts. If you read the OT closely it comports. God provided bread and wine to drink, even before Jesus communed with his disciples. Proverbs 9:4 see also Ecclesiastes 8:15. Look even your own translation distinguishes bread from manna. Indeed the bread and manna are different. Even Jesus acknowledges this. He says Your fathers ate the manna and died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

The bread from heaven Jesus talked about and fed to the disciples was different from the bread Jesus compared himself to. Jesus does not say he is the bread of heaven. HE SAID HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE. He said he is the living bread from heaven. Again, living bread from heaven and bread from heaven are distinct concepts. Indeed, God brings forth bread from heaven Psalms 78:24-25 and he brings forth bread from the earth. Psalms 104:14-15. The word commonly translated as food there can also be translated generally as bread. The bread from the earth gives life, but not immortality. Living bread from heaven is more consistent with bread sent from heaven to the earth and brought forth from the earth as described in Psalm 104:14-15.

When Jesus is says something is his flesh he is not saying it to mean his own body. This could be said the same way as a farmer would talk about his animal. A farmer could say "That cow is my flesh". Indeed it is, the farmer owns the flesh on the cow. This is exactly how Jesus talks here, he is talking about flesh he has a share in or ownership of, but which is not his own body.

Your own scriptures teach those who eat of wisdom will hunger even more and more and those who drink of wisdom will thirst more. Sirach 24:20-22. Your own wisdoms and your own fathers taught Jesus was God's wisdom. These are irreconcilable. Jesus cannot both cause those who eat of him to thirst for more and never thirst again.

PS You still haven't addressed my concern about Jesus saying his body is the church etc.

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So here's my issue with this man, you guys selectively jump from what the text says, and interject an absolute ton of your own modern interpretation on an ancient text.

1. Why should I trust this interpretation against the Witness of the Church for 2000 years
2. Why when we employ typology or any other exegetical critiques, is the default always "I just go by what it says in the Bible"

Also, Jesus doesn't say his body is the church, he makes references to it several times, but never flat out says it. Paul is the one who says it explicitly to the church in Ephesus

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1. The church is a body according to you, so the church can neither see, hear, nor speak. Believe it or not people interpreted the bible more than 2000 years ago. God created his law at the foundations of the earth.
2. I used an analogy about a farmer also.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference because it sounds like you hold to apostolic succession. You are attacking your own belief.

Faithful Ag said:

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codker92 said:

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You are missing key distinctions. Moses brought down the bread from heaven; Moses did not give the bread. Giving the bread and bringing the bread down are distinct acts. If you read the OT closely it comports. God provided bread and wine to drink, even before Jesus communed with his disciples. Proverbs 9:4 see also Ecclesiastes 8:15. Look even your own translation distinguishes bread from manna. Indeed the bread and manna are different. Even Jesus acknowledges this. He says Your fathers ate the manna and died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

The bread from heaven Jesus talked about and fed to the disciples was different from the bread Jesus compared himself to. Jesus does not say he is the bread of heaven. HE SAID HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE. He said he is the living bread from heaven. Again, living bread from heaven and bread from heaven are distinct concepts. Indeed, God brings forth bread from heaven Psalms 78:24-25 and he brings forth bread from the earth. Psalms 104:14-15. The word commonly translated as food there can also be translated generally as bread. The bread from the earth gives life, but not immortality. Living bread from heaven is more consistent with bread sent from heaven to the earth and brought forth from the earth as described in Psalm 104:14-15.

When Jesus is says something is his flesh he is not saying it to mean his own body. This could be said the same way as a farmer would talk about his animal. A farmer could say "That cow is my flesh". Indeed it is, the farmer owns the flesh on the cow. This is exactly how Jesus talks here, he is talking about flesh he has a share in or ownership of, but which is not his own body.

Your own scriptures teach those who eat of wisdom will hunger even more and more and those who drink of wisdom will thirst more. Sirach 24:20-22. Your own wisdoms and your own fathers taught Jesus was God's wisdom. These are irreconcilable. Jesus cannot both cause those who eat of him to thirst for more and never thirst again.

PS You still haven't addressed my concern about Jesus saying his body is the church etc.

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Yes, unfortunately I am not following the point you are attempting to make. At all. I humbly must ask (and I mean no disrespect), but do you consider yourself a Christian? I'm genuinely curious as you make references to "my own scriptures" which I am trying to understand, and your theology seems quite heterodox.

You seem hyper fixated on distinctions and differences in the references to the bread and you are creating a straw man in the process and it's non-sensical.

In the OT we see God using bread and wine as a form of sacrificial offering beginning with Malchizedek in Genesis. God, not Moses, rained down bread (manna) and flesh (quail) during the time of Moses while the Jews wandered the desert. God required the Bread of the Presence (and the flagons of wine) to be perpetually due before the Lord in the Tabernacle. All of the was a prefigurement of Christ and how God would ultimately choose to commune with his people. There is perfect continuity from Genesis through the OT pointing us to Jesus. Malchizedek, the Passover, the Manna, the Bread of the Presence…ALL of it points us to Jesus and His blood and flesh sacrifice for us on the Cross which is made present to us physically and spiritually in the Eucharist today in the same way it was given to the Apostles at the Last Supper.

You talk about bread from heaven and living bread from heaven as two completely different concepts, and then bread from earth that gives life but not immortality and somehow that does damage to the Eucharistic theology? Jesus literally came down from Heaven and at the same he was fully man (from the earth).

You say this:

Quote:

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This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

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if this is your position I really don't even know where to begin. The Eleven Apostles are more alive today than they were while embodied on earth. Do you believe in the resurrection and eternal life? Do you believe in the communion of saints? Do you believe in the afterlife? I'm truly perplexed.

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My beliefs are not relevant here. I am not here to tear down any one's beliefs, but sometimes when light is shed on a tradition people hold dear it can cause flames. I never said these things did damage, but you apparently think they do because you own logical conclusions led you there. When Israel blessed Jesus himself (Jesus was still inside Joseph), Israel revealed a hidden mystery. Israel said "May the Elohim before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked. The God Who, has been my shepherd all my life to this day -- the ANGEL who delivered my from all evil, may he bless the boys. Genesis 48:14-16. Israel revealed the supernal mystery, an Angel of the Lord forgave Israel's sins and redeemed him from evil.

codker92 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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codker92 said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Pretty sure Jesus meant what he said. Jesus himself insists his flesh and blood are true food and true drink. He tells them plainly and repeatedly. Jesus did not mince words when teaching the disciples, and He did not soften His teaching when it offended them. It's the only time we see followers abandon Him and His response to that was to double down with His Apostles daring them to also leave and no longer follow Him. There is nothing more Jesus could have done or said to make sure His apostles rightly understood His literal meaning - and for the next 1500 years this belief was universally held by all Christians.

Jesus Himself addresses the OT types being fulfilled by Him in John 6 and then at the Last Supper.

Quote:

---

John 6:
Jesus then said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, " from heaven." They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Jesus said to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever FEEDS (to gnaw) on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

…After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

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You are missing key distinctions. Moses brought down the bread from heaven; Moses did not give the bread. Giving the bread and bringing the bread down are distinct acts. If you read the OT closely it comports. God provided bread and wine to drink, even before Jesus communed with his disciples. Proverbs 9:4 see also Ecclesiastes 8:15. Look even your own translation distinguishes bread from manna. Indeed the bread and manna are different. Even Jesus acknowledges this. He says Your fathers ate the manna and died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may not die. John 6:49-50. Well guess what, all the disciples died. The disciples own deaths show they did not eat the bread from heaven. Had they eaten the bread from heaven they would never die.

The bread from heaven Jesus talked about and fed to the disciples was different from the bread Jesus compared himself to. Jesus does not say he is the bread of heaven. HE SAID HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE. He said he is the living bread from heaven. Again, living bread from heaven and bread from heaven are distinct concepts. Indeed, God brings forth bread from heaven Psalms 78:24-25 and he brings forth bread from the earth. Psalms 104:14-15. The word commonly translated as food there can also be translated generally as bread. The bread from the earth gives life, but not immortality. Living bread from heaven is more consistent with bread sent from heaven to the earth and brought forth from the earth as described in Psalm 104:14-15.

When Jesus is says something is his flesh he is not saying it to mean his own body. This could be said the same way as a farmer would talk about his animal. A farmer could say "That cow is my flesh". Indeed it is, the farmer owns the flesh on the cow. This is exactly how Jesus talks here, he is talking about flesh he has a share in or ownership of, but which is not his own body.

Your own scriptures teach those who eat of wisdom will hunger even more and more and those who drink of wisdom will thirst more. Sirach 24:20-22. Your own wisdoms and your own fathers taught Jesus was God's wisdom. These are irreconcilable. Jesus cannot both cause those who eat of him to thirst for more and never thirst again.

PS You still haven't addressed my concern about Jesus saying his body is the church etc.

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So here's my issue with this man, you guys selectively jump from what the text says, and interject an absolute ton of your own modern interpretation on an ancient text.

1. Why should I trust this interpretation against the Witness of the Church for 2000 years
2. Why when we employ typology or any other exegetical critiques, is the default always "I just go by what it says in the Bible"

Also, Jesus doesn't say his body is the church, he makes references to it several times, but never flat out says it. Paul is the one who says it explicitly to the church in Ephesus

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1. The church is a body according to you, so the church can neither see, hear, nor speak. Believe it or not people interpreted the bible more than 2000 years ago. God created his law at the foundations of the earth.
2. I used an analogy about a farmer also.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference because it sounds like you hold to apostolic succession. You are attacking your own belief.

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This is a first for me. I'm speechless

Peace be with you friend.