Do any of the parishes in B/CS have a Latin Mass?
TLM in B/CS
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Last: 1 mo ago by oldyeller
When I was in school we had to drive to Houston for TLM. Usually to Spring or Dickinson. I think St Thomas Aquinas Parish still has Latin Mass on occasion, but not on Sundays if memory serves. Hoping that has changed!
Diocese of Austin just shutdown the student's TLM. I would be curious if St Thomas Aquinas is able to do it anymore since the new bishop.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/diocese-of-austin-shuts-down-planned-latin-mass-for-students-at-texas-am-university/?utm_source=most_recent&utm_campaign=catholic
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/diocese-of-austin-shuts-down-planned-latin-mass-for-students-at-texas-am-university/?utm_source=most_recent&utm_campaign=catholic
Quote:
The Diocese of Austin issued a statement to CNA as well. Communications Director Camille Garcia said that Cardone's group did not reach out to incoming Bishop Garcia for his approval, which she said is required for Masses held "outside of a sacred space on the university campus."
And therein lies the rub... questions: Did this priest from Victoria have an agreement (valid celebret etc...) under the previous bishop? If so, why not honor said agreement? My understanding is that it can be done in an on-going manner (e.g. my previous pastor and his best friend in the next diocese down). Also done on visit by visit basis. Perhaps the Juventutem group can work with Dr. Foley and the Waco TLM folks in how to better work within the diocesan framework. Foley has a lot of experience in this area.
The BQ Jock said:
When I was in school we had to drive to Houston for TLM. Usually to Spring or Dickinson. I think St Thomas Aquinas Parish still has Latin Mass on occasion, but not on Sundays if memory serves. Hoping that has changed!
Another option... https://baylorcatholic.org/schedule
During the summer months, TLM tends to move to the 9:30 am slot. Most of the scheduling comms are done via an email distribution list. Talk to Dr. Foley after Mass to get on the list.
The group is called the Saint Gregory Society: https://www.facebook.com/groups/166833314813
TSJ said:
Diocese of Austin just shutdown the student's TLM. I would be curious if St Thomas Aquinas is able to do it anymore since the new bishop.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/diocese-of-austin-shuts-down-planned-latin-mass-for-students-at-texas-am-university/?utm_source=most_recent&utm_campaign=catholic
Pretty sure he shut it down in his last diocese
From the article,
"For many of Juventutem members who are converts, the unbroken tradition of the Catholic Church is the very reason they became Catholic. They are drawn by millenia-long apostolic succession, consistent moral teaching, and the continuity of worship that stretches back to Christ and the Apostles. To suppress this tradition is to undermine what makes Catholicism distinct from every other religion and community."
"Undermine"? What an unfortunate perspective. Our various liturgical ceremonies do not distinguish us, it should be our love for others and service to our neighbor that are the marks of a disciple.
Also,
" The Latin Mass is not a rebellion" - No one ever said it was. He goes on to claim "discrimination"- seriously. Again, I see my fellow Catholics in an echo chamber ignoring the call of Vatican II to holiness. They would do well to study those various documents and apply themselves towards that aim united with the Magisterium.
"For many of Juventutem members who are converts, the unbroken tradition of the Catholic Church is the very reason they became Catholic. They are drawn by millenia-long apostolic succession, consistent moral teaching, and the continuity of worship that stretches back to Christ and the Apostles. To suppress this tradition is to undermine what makes Catholicism distinct from every other religion and community."
"Undermine"? What an unfortunate perspective. Our various liturgical ceremonies do not distinguish us, it should be our love for others and service to our neighbor that are the marks of a disciple.
Also,
" The Latin Mass is not a rebellion" - No one ever said it was. He goes on to claim "discrimination"- seriously. Again, I see my fellow Catholics in an echo chamber ignoring the call of Vatican II to holiness. They would do well to study those various documents and apply themselves towards that aim united with the Magisterium.
Do you think the precepts put forth for the mass by Vatican II have been faithfully applied and followed? Not trying to push any perspective here. Just genuinely curious
I think that is my concern. That some will lock in on the format of the liturgy, the placement of the sacristy, the orientation of the altar, the number of time the bells are rung during the elevation of the Eucharist- I could go on and on- none of that matters if you do not DO the will of God.
This preoccupation with the 1962 Missal is doing exactly that in my opinion- it is driving a wedge in the Church when our worship should be uniting us during the most holy sacrifice of the mass. I hope, that we can get past this perceived "discrimination" and understand what the aims are for the lay faithful in our time.
This preoccupation with the 1962 Missal is doing exactly that in my opinion- it is driving a wedge in the Church when our worship should be uniting us during the most holy sacrifice of the mass. I hope, that we can get past this perceived "discrimination" and understand what the aims are for the lay faithful in our time.
PabloSerna said:
Again, I see my fellow Catholics in an echo chamber ignoring the call of Vatican II to holiness. They would do well to study those various documents and apply themselves towards that aim united with the Magisterium.
Can't speak for Cardone and his Juventutem chapter, but in looking at my fellow (TLM) parishioners, it's not a stretch to say that just about everyone there is striving to grow in holiness. Parents striving to inculcate the Faith in their children. Adults, young and old, seeking a deeper union with Christ. Perhaps some of us are in an echo chamber online, but it's not an indicator of whether one is or isn't taking the call to holiness seriously.
Nota Bene... Not only did Vatican II documents speak of all being called to holiness, but it's also found in the writings of St. Francis de Sales. I seem to recall that made a profound impact on Bishop Konderla when he was discerning between diocesan life and religious.
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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My only comment.
I love ad orientem. The priest is offering the sacrifice of the mass WITH the people.
I always thought that was very beautiful and a proper role for the priest.
Just my opinion though.
I love ad orientem. The priest is offering the sacrifice of the mass WITH the people.
I always thought that was very beautiful and a proper role for the priest.
Just my opinion though.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
This is exactly what happened. Protocols were not followed for a visiting priest from outside the diocese. He wouldn't have been allowed to celebrate a novus ordo mass. Really shady stuff from people who know better. They are painting themselves as victims and making Bishop Garcia and the diocese look bad.
The U.S. bishops don't exactly have the best reputation these days, so who knows what to believe. It doesn't seem like it would have been difficult for the diocese to make a one-time exception if the student group didn't follow the exact procedures. My guess is the bishop or his office wanted to make an example out of them.
It's my understanding that the visiting priest would work that issue. When we have a visiting priest, we leave those arrangements to the clergy.RAB91 said:
The U.S. bishops don't exactly have the best reputation these days, so who knows what to believe. It doesn't seem like it would have been difficult for the diocese to make a one-time exception if the student group didn't follow the exact procedures. My guess is the bishop or his office wanted to make an example out of them.
Maybe you can help me understand.
Is this opinion you have from a personal experience or just in general? Because the role of the priest did not change with the liturgical updates begun shortly after Vatican II.
Is this opinion you have from a personal experience or just in general? Because the role of the priest did not change with the liturgical updates begun shortly after Vatican II.
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PabloSerna said:
Maybe you can help me understand.
Is this opinion you have from a personal experience or just in general? Because the role of the priest did not change with the liturgical updates begun shortly after Vatican II.
I would say it is just in general. However I do absolutely love the high alter. The pictures I've seen are stunning.
Maybe "role" isn't the right word. I think it is more the symbolism. I see the priest facing the congregation during the liturgy of the word and homily. That is a time of instruction.
When it shifts to the liturgy of the Eucharist that is changed. The priest is also a recipient of the sacrificial love of Christ. He is just as human as the congregation. Through his ordination he is given the authority to "lead" the Church at this time. I think of it as a military leader who "leads from the front."
Sorry if I'm doing a poor job explaining it.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
Just genuinely curious, why would someone who can't understand Latin want to do that?
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10andBOUNCE said:
Just genuinely curious, why would someone who can't understand Latin want to do that?
It's kinda like going to mass when they speak Spanish.
You can figure out most of the words they are saying. It isn't too hard. Plus if you grew up Catholic you probably already sang a few songs in Latin.
Oh and having family from Italy helps. All those languages are pretty dang close.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy said:10andBOUNCE said:
Just genuinely curious, why would someone who can't understand Latin want to do that?
It's kinda like going to mass when they speak Spanish.
You can figure out most of the words they are saying. It isn't too hard. Plus if you grew up Catholic you probably already sang a few songs in Latin.
Oh and having family from Italy helps. All those languages are pretty dang close.
Spanish. Korean. Cantonese. Been to all three in my lifetime. After having been to Holy Mass so often in my life, there's a familiarity with how the Mass progresses that you just know what is happening. Same for the liturgy in Latin or some other liturgical language (like in certain Eastern Churches). There's a familiarity that you just know... sort of like customs. And outside of the anglophone world where people speak a romance language, there are a great many similarities among Latin, French, Spanish, etc...
There are also missals available (even in the days prior to the Second Vatican Council) that assist the individual with side-by-side translations if you desire to follow along in the text. Most TLM communities also have the scripture readings re-read in the vernacular to assist the faithful with a better understanding and context of the sermon/homily.
Bottom line, it's more accessible than people are led to believe.
10andBOUNCE said:
Just genuinely curious, why would someone who can't understand Latin want to do that?
The idea around keeping it in Latin is to keep it uniform around the entire world. No matter where you go, no matter what the locals speak, the language of the mass does not change. The ideal was for everyone to know their local language + latin (at least the Latin used in the Mass), but the ideal was frequently missed, eventually resulting in vernacular masses.
Most of the language we use for law, science, medicine, and even religion are rooted in Latin. It's a useful language to know.
During the Eucharist the priest is "in persona Christi" or "in the person of Christ". Not exactly like the "rest of us" at that moment, but I get it.
What I gather from words are more of an appreciation for the aesthetics involved in Catholic worship. Certainly in some older churches and even some new ones, there has been considerable attention given to the architectural design and liturgical decor that can elevate one's religious devotion.
However, this should never be more important than the encounter with God, in his house, that we all can experience whether that is a gothic cathedral like in Chartes (my personal favorite) or in a mission church deep in the jungles of South America.
Pope Francis wrote, of his reasoning to limit the TLM, was because of a growing ideology based on nostalgia that he said was akin to looking backwards. Instead of moving forward in the mission of the church in the modern world (Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II) some were using the TLM to reject council teachings and move the faithful backwards.
In a sense, a disordered preoccupation with the "smells and bells" as I call it, can be the start of such "backwardness". I think it is right for the Bishops to keep an eye on this and root it out before it takes hold and does real spiritual damage.
Does that mean only plain, ugly churches? Certainly not. Art and Architecture have an important role in elevating one's experience with the Lord. However, this does not end with any particular liturgy. It goes on.
What I gather from words are more of an appreciation for the aesthetics involved in Catholic worship. Certainly in some older churches and even some new ones, there has been considerable attention given to the architectural design and liturgical decor that can elevate one's religious devotion.
However, this should never be more important than the encounter with God, in his house, that we all can experience whether that is a gothic cathedral like in Chartes (my personal favorite) or in a mission church deep in the jungles of South America.
Pope Francis wrote, of his reasoning to limit the TLM, was because of a growing ideology based on nostalgia that he said was akin to looking backwards. Instead of moving forward in the mission of the church in the modern world (Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II) some were using the TLM to reject council teachings and move the faithful backwards.
In a sense, a disordered preoccupation with the "smells and bells" as I call it, can be the start of such "backwardness". I think it is right for the Bishops to keep an eye on this and root it out before it takes hold and does real spiritual damage.
Does that mean only plain, ugly churches? Certainly not. Art and Architecture have an important role in elevating one's experience with the Lord. However, this does not end with any particular liturgy. It goes on.
Mr. Thunderclap McGirthy
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I didn't want to get in the weeds with in persona Christi. It has been way too long since I've even thought of that. Also it has been a long time since I was a practicing Catholic. Over 2 decades now. I don't know of the "political" crap that is going on in the Church. I know I'm not a fan of Francis and Leo seems to be another commie.
I participated in one Latin right mass and it wasn't in a "church" per se. But studying the history and being a big fan of the architecture, it was very appealing to me. I know there is always a bit of imperfection in translations. That is why the thought of the Mass being celebrated the exact same way throughout the entire world is beautiful to me.
Not a Catholic anymore so I'll back out of the discussion.
Well not a practicing Catholic. I just participate in church the way I'm "allowed to" at this time.
I participated in one Latin right mass and it wasn't in a "church" per se. But studying the history and being a big fan of the architecture, it was very appealing to me. I know there is always a bit of imperfection in translations. That is why the thought of the Mass being celebrated the exact same way throughout the entire world is beautiful to me.
Not a Catholic anymore so I'll back out of the discussion.
Well not a practicing Catholic. I just participate in church the way I'm "allowed to" at this time.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
747Ag said:RAB91 said:
The U.S. bishops don't exactly have the best reputation these days, so who knows what to believe. It doesn't seem like it would have been difficult for the diocese to make a one-time exception if the student group didn't follow the exact procedures. My guess is the bishop or his office wanted to make an example out of them.
It's my understanding that the visiting priest would work that issue. When we have a visiting priest, we leave those arrangements to the clergy.
Exactly. The visiting priest knew better and didn't do what he was supposed to do. Which, from a diocesan perspective, is a major red flag and a cause for concern as to what exactly is happening. This slipping in and out of different dioceses without informing the bishop is what made abuse difficult to track and why the Church is very firm about these things.
The student group is the one that issued the press release first, seeking attention. Since it contained incorrect information, the diocese had to respond to clarify things. They were not "looking to make an example out of them."
Law361 said:747Ag said:RAB91 said:
The U.S. bishops don't exactly have the best reputation these days, so who knows what to believe. It doesn't seem like it would have been difficult for the diocese to make a one-time exception if the student group didn't follow the exact procedures. My guess is the bishop or his office wanted to make an example out of them.
It's my understanding that the visiting priest would work that issue. When we have a visiting priest, we leave those arrangements to the clergy.
Exactly. The visiting priest knew better and didn't do what he was supposed to do. Which, from a diocesan perspective, is a major red flag and a cause for concern as to what exactly is happening. This slipping in and out of different dioceses without informing the bishop is what made abuse difficult to track and why the Church is very firm about these things.
The student group is the one that issued the press release first, seeking attention. Since it contained incorrect information, the diocese had to respond to clarify things. They were not "looking to make an example out of them."
Yeah, I read the reporting and commentary initially and heard the name of an old college friend (Fr. Straten). Good guy. I have every reason to believe he's also a good priest working for the salvation of his congregation. Decided to dig in a little, and the most informative info came from the Waco TLM facebook page (St. Gregory Society). There, Dr. Foley was saying much of the same that you've indicated here.
This is a black eye for TLM partisans like myself.
PabloSerna said:
During the Eucharist the priest is "in persona Christi" or "in the person of Christ". Not exactly like the "rest of us" at that moment, but I get it.
What I gather from words are more of an appreciation for the aesthetics involved in Catholic worship. Certainly in some older churches and even some new ones, there has been considerable attention given to the architectural design and liturgical decor that can elevate one's religious devotion.
However, this should never be more important than the encounter with God, in his house, that we all can experience whether that is a gothic cathedral like in Chartes (my personal favorite) or in a mission church deep in the jungles of South America.
Pope Francis wrote, of his reasoning to limit the TLM, was because of a growing ideology based on nostalgia that he said was akin to looking backwards. Instead of moving forward in the mission of the church in the modern world (Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II) some were using the TLM to reject council teachings and move the faithful backwards.
In a sense, a disordered preoccupation with the "smells and bells" as I call it, can be the start of such "backwardness". I think it is right for the Bishops to keep an eye on this and root it out before it takes hold and does real spiritual damage.
Does that mean only plain, ugly churches? Certainly not. Art and Architecture have an important role in elevating one's experience with the Lord. However, this does not end with any particular liturgy. It goes on.
New study: 'Traditional liturgical experiences predict stronger belief in the Real Presence' https://share.google/7Fpb4YcLtxiLmbf66
I interpret this to mean that we should be more preoccupied with 'smells and bells' if we actually care about the business of the salvation of souls. It's amazing that we have this information, and it hasn't prompted a universal return to tradition. This is an actual emergency. We need more smells and bells stat.
From Pope Francis 2024 interview with Jesuit publication La Civitta Catollica,
"There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call "indietrismo" (backwardness), as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: "But we do not belong to those who shrink back." The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy."
+++
It is important to ignite the faith of the laity which for so long has been dormant. The aims of Vatican II were focused on this through the reforms (not just liturgical) promulgated. It has been said that it will take a century or more, but the church (lay faithful) must be salt unto the world in order to do the will of God.
Surprisingly (or not) there has been a small but dedicated group that has resisted the aims of the council and continue to hold out even now. Pope Paul VI, referred to this as the "smoke of Satan" that seeks to undermine the church in the modern world.
Look, as an architect that has experience preserving old buildings, I understand the historic cultural legacy that great cathedrals and churches are for a people and region. However, I also understand that as Jesus told the people in his time, "tear it down" and he would rebuild it in 3 days. This is the priority from the words of Jesus himself. It is the sacraments first and then everything else. That is moving forward not backwards.
"There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call "indietrismo" (backwardness), as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: "But we do not belong to those who shrink back." The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy."
+++
It is important to ignite the faith of the laity which for so long has been dormant. The aims of Vatican II were focused on this through the reforms (not just liturgical) promulgated. It has been said that it will take a century or more, but the church (lay faithful) must be salt unto the world in order to do the will of God.
Surprisingly (or not) there has been a small but dedicated group that has resisted the aims of the council and continue to hold out even now. Pope Paul VI, referred to this as the "smoke of Satan" that seeks to undermine the church in the modern world.
Look, as an architect that has experience preserving old buildings, I understand the historic cultural legacy that great cathedrals and churches are for a people and region. However, I also understand that as Jesus told the people in his time, "tear it down" and he would rebuild it in 3 days. This is the priority from the words of Jesus himself. It is the sacraments first and then everything else. That is moving forward not backwards.
Incredible irony in referencing Hebrews considering which Christians according to that study are the ones rejecting the New Covenant Sacrifice.
70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I would hardly call that an "igniting of the faith of the laity"
PabloSerna said:
From Pope Francis 2024 interview with Jesuit publication La Civitta Catollica,
"There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call "indietrismo" (backwardness), as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: "But we do not belong to those who shrink back." The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy."
+++
It is important to ignite the faith of the laity which for so long has been dormant. The aims of Vatican II were focused on this through the reforms (not just liturgical) promulgated. It has been said that it will take a century or more, but the church (lay faithful) must be salt unto the world in order to do the will of God.
Surprisingly (or not) there has been a small but dedicated group that has resisted the aims of the council and continue to hold out even now. Pope Paul VI, referred to this as the "smoke of Satan" that seeks to undermine the church in the modern world.
Look, as an architect that has experience preserving old buildings, I understand the historic cultural legacy that great cathedrals and churches are for a people and region. However, I also understand that as Jesus told the people in his time, "tear it down" and he would rebuild it in 3 days. This is the priority from the words of Jesus himself. It is the sacraments first and then everything else. That is moving forward not backwards.
Is Pope Francis the only Pope that has mattered during our 2000 year history?
HtownAg19 said:
70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I would hardly call that an "igniting of the faith of the laity"
I don't know how things run in other parishes, but ours relies heavily on volunteers for catechesis. Not just for the youth, but adults as well. If you think the numbers are bad now, imagine what they were before. Just think of all evil wrought by poorly catechized Catholics over time.
The point of emphasis for the reforms of Vatican II was to reinvigorate the lay faithful from their sleepwalk through their religious experience. For some, they didn't need it as much, however, for many they were just checking off a box.
We see that even today, but now we (lay faithful) have the opportunity to dive deeper. Not all will. Some will even bury their heads in the sand while their neighbors yearn for the truth.
HtownAg19 said:
70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I would hardly call that an "igniting of the faith of the laity"
where is this number from?
PabloSerna said:HtownAg19 said:
70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I would hardly call that an "igniting of the faith of the laity"
I don't know how things run in other parishes, but ours relies heavily on volunteers for catechesis. Not just for the youth, but adults as well. If you think the numbers are bad now, imagine what they were before. Just think of all evil wrought by poorly catechized Catholics over time.
The point of emphasis for the reforms of Vatican II was to reinvigorate the lay faithful from their sleepwalk through their religious experience. For some, they didn't need it as much, however, for many they were just checking off a box.
We see that even today, but now we (lay faithful) have the opportunity to dive deeper. Not all will. Some will even bury their heads in the sand while their neighbors yearn for the truth.
The truth that has been traditionally preserved in Latin? (and Greek)
Foley is a good egg. Locals to BCS, highly recommend attending.
https://thomisticinstitute.org/upcoming-events/tamu-foley-mass
https://thomisticinstitute.org/upcoming-events/tamu-foley-mass
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