10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Great question.
747Ag said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Great question.
Is the use of a wood-chipper for the child/teen abusers ok?
10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Quo Vadis? said:10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Yes, I think every Catholic clergy should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. All of the priests guilty of betraying their flock, especially with the disgusting scandal should have been executed if found guilty.
10andBOUNCE said:Quo Vadis? said:10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Yes, I think every Catholic clergy should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. All of the priests guilty of betraying their flock, especially with the disgusting scandal should have been executed if found guilty.
Just making this up, but Fr. Mike Schmitz comes out and defies the Pope and says he now believes there to be only two sacraments. He goes straight to the gallows after not recanting?
AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
747Ag said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
You'll need to consult with the FBI to see what they've heard at Coffee & Donut Hour (8th Sacrament) after the Latin Masses.
AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
PabloSerna said:
Are you Roman Catholic?
Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
Give me a break. We're not making fun of the way he smells or calling him ugly, we have disagreements with the way he led the church. However, what make us different from Protestants is that we didn't start our own church over it, because we trust in Jesus' promise.
AGC said:747Ag said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
You'll need to consult with the FBI to see what they've heard at Coffee & Donut Hour (8th Sacrament) after the Latin Masses.
I don't though; the condescension is quite public with every, "join the mother ship," or, "come home" comment that gets made.
747Ag said:AGC said:747Ag said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
You'll need to consult with the FBI to see what they've heard at Coffee & Donut Hour (8th Sacrament) after the Latin Masses.
I don't though; the condescension is quite public with every, "join the mother ship," or, "come home" comment that gets made.
Is it really condescending though? The Orthodox guys here also have their way of stating very much the same. one MEEN Ag often states, "Liturgy is at <insert time>." The impetus is the same... Christ's prayer: that they all be one... We have theological differences. Someone is wrong... the Catholics are convinced it's the rest of y'all to varying degrees. It's fine. Holy Mass is at noon.
Quo Vadis? said:AgLiving06 said:Quo Vadis? said:AgLiving06 said:
Simply repeating a claim does not make it true or correct.
Christ did not "create the Roman Catholic Church." Christ created His Church. Roman Catholics are certainly within the broad definition of Christ's church, but they don't have a unique claim to anything.
And your second paragraph is just victim blaming, and especially ironic given your analogy to a marriage/broken home. It's really the child's fault the parents are fighting. It's the child's fault the parents want to kill him. Rome was broken.
However, I do enjoy pulling up Exsurge Domine though, because we get to see the pope's own words the "errors of Luther."
Exsurge Domine - Papal EncyclicalsQuote:
In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circumstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows:
----
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
Rome itself viewed the burning of heretics, not as problematic, not as an error, but the will of the Holy Spirit.
I hope we could at least find agreement that the pope was absolutely wrong in this claim and should rightfully be called out for theological and frankly human error.
I will repeat since you can't understand..Christ created the Catholic Church, and charged the Apostles to shepherd it, Peter foremost of all. Peter established the church in Rome, and passed his authority on for 2,000 years. There are many several apostolic sees, all have been established by Apostles, charged by Christ.
Ah yes the old Lutheran victimhood "the 1500 year old bride of Christ won't bow to the whim of an egotistical German monk, let's take our ball and go home".
Again, we know what Christ said about those who would lead children astray. Would you argue that having millstones thrown around the neck of heretics would be contrary to the will of the Spirit?
I will repeat what you can't understand..Christ created His Church. Luther, you, and I aren't beholden to the pope, but to Christ. Rome did not represent "the 1500 year old bride of Christ..." but a branch of christianity that had fallen into error. You continually fall into the error of believing that because the Church existed, it was a reflection of Rome. Rome, especially by the middle ages was not a reflection of the early church and its teachings, but something new that reinvented itself.
To your last point...are your now claiming Rome should continue to execute heretics? Since I certainly believe Luther and the Reformers were correct in their reforming of the errors of Rome, should I be burned at the stake as the pope wanted to do to Luther and others? You danced around it in your post, so please be clear.
Should I be burned at the stake?
When did it fall into error? As I've mentioned many times in the past, the oldest churches of Christendom that have been continually celebrating mass for over a thousand years before the reformation are Catholic or Orthodox. At which point did they change from "looking like the original church" to "falling into error"?
Your obstinate "I bow to no one" bs, sounds more like Satan's "non-Serviam" than anything remotely related to Christianity; and being obedient to Christ by severing yourself from the Church he instituted on his Apostles and charged with shepherding you feels counter productive.
Also, the effeminate hysterics behind the burning at the stake will hopefully be put to bed by my answer.
If I could end the heresy of Protestantism by burning you at the stake, I would do so. Given the fact that it seems at this point impossible to put Pandora back in her bottle, we do not have a state religion, it would be killing someone for no purpose; which is murder. I will instead have to be content with seeing the best and brightest continue to flee from Protestantism into the apostolic faith, while those looking for good music and to see a person jump a motorcycle through a ring of fire continue to defect to the Protestant novelty.
AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:AGC said:Quo Vadis? said:dermdoc said:
Agree with your first paragraph.
So do you think everyone executed by the Catholic Church for heresy was justly treated?
Or do you believe the Catholic Church is infallible and incapable of injustice?
Because that is the crux of this discussion.
No I'm sure they were a ton of people who were unjustly treated. The Catholic Church is infallible as the body of Christ, led by fallible men completely capable of injustice.
Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the institution insulating itself from criticism, and how you can tell loyalty is not to Christ, but the papacy.
Edit: before we go too far, I know we'll wind up in a discussion where you assume the pop is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church, and we disagree then we need to remember that the pope is the vicar of Christ and Rome is the only church…
This is hilarious. How many observant Catholics have you met that liked the last Pope? The only thing that kept us from trashing him (like all the other Catholic posters on the politics board) was the fact that we believe in Christ's promise.
Enough, and I'm embarrassed for yall. He posses the imago dei no matter what office he holds. Is that really all that keeps you from bad mouthing people? What must you say behind closed doors about the rest of us not in the ark?
Give me a break. We're not making fun of the way he smells or calling him ugly, we have disagreements with the way he led the church. However, what make us different from Protestants is that we didn't start our own church over it, because we trust in Jesus' promise.
We'll see when TLM winds down and the ordinariate folds for lack of ordinations and institutional support (I'm watching both of these trends firsthand where I live). Most likely you'll join the old catholics or something similar if you don't start your own sect.
Dang, bro. Well that's something.AGC said:
My kids like this line of argumentation as well, "but they do it too."
AgLiving06 said:Quo Vadis? said:AgLiving06 said:Quo Vadis? said:AgLiving06 said:
Simply repeating a claim does not make it true or correct.
Christ did not "create the Roman Catholic Church." Christ created His Church. Roman Catholics are certainly within the broad definition of Christ's church, but they don't have a unique claim to anything.
And your second paragraph is just victim blaming, and especially ironic given your analogy to a marriage/broken home. It's really the child's fault the parents are fighting. It's the child's fault the parents want to kill him. Rome was broken.
However, I do enjoy pulling up Exsurge Domine though, because we get to see the pope's own words the "errors of Luther."
Exsurge Domine - Papal EncyclicalsQuote:
In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circumstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows:
----
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
Rome itself viewed the burning of heretics, not as problematic, not as an error, but the will of the Holy Spirit.
I hope we could at least find agreement that the pope was absolutely wrong in this claim and should rightfully be called out for theological and frankly human error.
I will repeat since you can't understand..Christ created the Catholic Church, and charged the Apostles to shepherd it, Peter foremost of all. Peter established the church in Rome, and passed his authority on for 2,000 years. There are many several apostolic sees, all have been established by Apostles, charged by Christ.
Ah yes the old Lutheran victimhood "the 1500 year old bride of Christ won't bow to the whim of an egotistical German monk, let's take our ball and go home".
Again, we know what Christ said about those who would lead children astray. Would you argue that having millstones thrown around the neck of heretics would be contrary to the will of the Spirit?
I will repeat what you can't understand..Christ created His Church. Luther, you, and I aren't beholden to the pope, but to Christ. Rome did not represent "the 1500 year old bride of Christ..." but a branch of christianity that had fallen into error. You continually fall into the error of believing that because the Church existed, it was a reflection of Rome. Rome, especially by the middle ages was not a reflection of the early church and its teachings, but something new that reinvented itself.
To your last point...are your now claiming Rome should continue to execute heretics? Since I certainly believe Luther and the Reformers were correct in their reforming of the errors of Rome, should I be burned at the stake as the pope wanted to do to Luther and others? You danced around it in your post, so please be clear.
Should I be burned at the stake?
When did it fall into error? As I've mentioned many times in the past, the oldest churches of Christendom that have been continually celebrating mass for over a thousand years before the reformation are Catholic or Orthodox. At which point did they change from "looking like the original church" to "falling into error"?
Your obstinate "I bow to no one" bs, sounds more like Satan's "non-Serviam" than anything remotely related to Christianity; and being obedient to Christ by severing yourself from the Church he instituted on his Apostles and charged with shepherding you feels counter productive.
Also, the effeminate hysterics behind the burning at the stake will hopefully be put to bed by my answer.
If I could end the heresy of Protestantism by burning you at the stake, I would do so. Given the fact that it seems at this point impossible to put Pandora back in her bottle, we do not have a state religion, it would be killing someone for no purpose; which is murder. I will instead have to be content with seeing the best and brightest continue to flee from Protestantism into the apostolic faith, while those looking for good music and to see a person jump a motorcycle through a ring of fire continue to defect to the Protestant novelty.
A specific date? That would be hard to pinpoint, but we can mostly track the rise of the pope from one of many bishops to an ecumenical bishop to the modern claims Rome made (which we can probably trace to the Great Schism).
But as I've pointed out in other posts/threads, much of Rome's theology, which is ironically really driven to be "anti-reformer" isn't nailed down until Trent.
--------------
To your next point, you make a blatantly false claim. Nowhere have I claimed "I bow down to no one." That is BS, but that's you spouting BS that isn't true, correct, or accurate. I'm obedient to Christ and His Church. However, His Church is not the Roman Catholic Church exclusively or specifically as that organization was not established by the Apostles or any of that nonsense, but by men who came later.
It is nice though to see you admit you'd burn me and others. It's a great reminder of why Rome (thankfully) is not the Christian Church. It's a testament to how insecure Rome is and how fragile their faith is.
Your last sentence is just complete nonsense. Nobody on here is defending that kind of nonsense, but that you have resorted to that kind of petty language several times is a good indicator you know you're arguments are lacking.
747Ag said:Dang, bro. Well that's something.AGC said:
My kids like this line of argumentation as well, "but they do it too."
Quo Vadis? said:
we've got 1,400,000 billion people in all of the ancient sees of Christianity
10andBOUNCE said:Quo Vadis? said:
we've got 1,400,000 billion people in all of the ancient sees of Christianity
I'm not sure this is the evidence I'd be using to assess healthy disciples of Christ
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
10andBOUNCE said:
Kinda weird the same early Church who endured persecution and saints who sacrificed their lives for the gospel are now the ones okay burning those who are dying as they profess grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone.
10andBOUNCE said:Quo Vadis? said:10andBOUNCE said:
Would you be for putting to death those "bad apples" that are within the Catholic Church? Purging the evil?
Yes, I think every Catholic clergy should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. All of the priests guilty of betraying their flock, especially with the disgusting scandal should have been executed if found guilty.
Just making this up, but Fr. Mike Schmitz comes out and defies the Pope and says he now believes there to be only two sacraments. He goes straight to the gallows after not recanting?
Quote:
what criteria do you think would be indicative of maintaining apostolic teaching? how would we evaluate this as a matter of fact, from first principles?
Zobel said:
this is not true. read the torah again.
