This was in my morning readings and I thought it was pretty good.

In other words, free will is a doctrine for everyone. No one can say "I am not a Christian because I have not been chosen". The invitation is to all.
On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

If you say so...

Definitions will certainly be important here.

Many groups use both the words "Free Will" and "Predestination" while defining them very differently.

Quote:

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On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

---

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed believed were ordained to eternal life. Acts 13:48

chuckd said:

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Quote:

---

On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

---

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed believed were ordained to eternal life. Acts 13:48

---

Notice is says ordained and not pre ordained. Totally different meaning.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

---

What is "pre" in predestination referring to? "Once you have accepted the invitation and entered" makes it more postdestination, right?

---

Not in my opinion. It means God has predestined the plan that once you have faith and believe, you are pre destined to persevere.

By the way, this is from Nicky Gumbel who is Anglican.

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

dermdoc said:

---

This was in my morning readings and I thought it was pretty good.

In other words, free will is a doctrine for everyone. No one can say "I am not a Christian because I have not been chosen". The invitation is to all.
On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

---

You lose your free will once you believe? No thanks.

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

"He will not let you go."

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that once saved always saved, even if you decide to let go?

Create Account said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

This was in my morning readings and I thought it was pretty good.

In other words, free will is a doctrine for everyone. No one can say "I am not a Christian because I have not been chosen". The invitation is to all.
On the other hand, predestination is a doctrine of assurance for those who are Christians. Once you have accepted the invitation and entered, you can know that God has chosen you and therefore He will not let you go.

---

You lose your free will once you believe? No thanks.

---

No, you just interact with the Holy Spirit and through this relationship your eyes are opened to the transcendental fact that willfully aligning your will with the Divine Will puts your life in harmony. You are still free to fall away, at times, and likely will, at times. It's a process, not a binary picture.

" you are pre destined to persevere."

Catholics would say that predestination is God's plan for the salvation of man. Not all men will choose this way however.

ETA: this plan is based on the primacy of Christ and Grace. Christ saves us through his grace.

PabloSerna said:

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"He will not let you go."

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that once saved always saved, even if you decide to let go?

---

I think blasphemy against The Holy Spirit is the one sure fire way to break that bond. My best conception of what that looks like is someone who has tasted salvation and willfully becomes and agent of depravity, hedonism, and evil.

PabloSerna said:

---

" you are pre destined to persevere."

Catholics would say that predestination is God's plan for the salvation of man. Not all men will choose this way however.

ETA: this plan is based on the primacy of Christ and Grace. Christ saves us through his grace.

---

I think we are basically saying the same thing as it pertains to predestination.

Can a person choose to believe in predestination?

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Yeah, dermdoc, you're wading into Calvinistic waters on that one

"Faith because I'm saved" rather than "saved because of my faith"

The old retrospective - if I wasn't saved, then I wouldn't have faith

Seems backwards to me

Does man not have free will to change his mind? Switch gears and go another direction?

Captain Pablo said:

---

Does man not have free will to change his mind? Switch gears and go another direction?

---

That's what I'm asking. I walk into the door by free will, but can't get out even if I want to? How is this not the same as Calvinism? You're a robot.

Create Account said:

---

Captain Pablo said:

---

Does man not have free will to change his mind? Switch gears and go another direction?

---

That's what I'm asking. I walk into the door by free will, but can't get out even if I want to? How is this not the same as Calvinism? You're a robot.

---

I believe once you are regenerate you may sin but you never fall away. I am probably an ultimate reconciliation Calvinist. God desires all to be saved. And God is sovereign.

You don't have to agree. Just stating my beliefs. I am a happy heretic.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

---

I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.

Feel like I am in a court room.

My dad was saved and baptized in 1995. When my mom divorced him in 2008, he was angry at God and "walked away" (or so he thought) for about 5-6 years. Through God's persevering love and grace, my dad was able to be reinvigorated for the Lord until present day. There wasn't anything that my dad did on his own. The Lord allowed him to wander but never let him stray too far, because he had been saved already, he was an adopted child of God.

If he had instead began to wander and never came back, I would say that he was never born again and saved in the first place.

That is my own personal experience with how I would answer and believe it aligns scripturally.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

---

I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.

Feel like I am in a court room.

---

Sorry! I've been listening to the Supreme Court cases on transgender sports all day so legal mind right now!

--------
You won't like my response now though.

What you've just articulated is the de facto Calvinistic response to salvation. That's why I was trying to give you as many outs as possible.

Only the elect will be saved and persevere and those who aren't elect will eventually fall away because they never had the true saving faith. Or said differently, those who persevere in their faith were the elect, and those who don't weren't.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

---

I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.

Feel like I am in a court room.

---

Sorry! I've been listening to the Supreme Court cases on transgender sports all day so legal mind right now!

--------
You won't like my response now though.

What you've just articulated is the de facto Calvinistic response to salvation. That's why I was trying to give you as many outs as possible.

Only the elect will be saved and persevere and those who aren't elect will eventually fall away because they never had the true saving faith. Or said differently, those who persevere in their faith were the elect, and those who don't weren't.

---

Did you read my post that everyone is offered salvation? And they decide? But once they truly have saving faith and are emdued with the Holy Spirit, I believe there is nothing that can undo that.

I am not an attorney but am friends with a ton.
You are forgiven.

Now docs on the other hand…

Pre-destination talk I have come to see as often dominated by our essentially cultural understanding/agreement of the concept of time. I am not real sure the great "I AM" operates as such.


To me, digging into this even from a purely scientific perspective, leads to religious questions as to what it means to be saved, 'once saved, always saved' etc. The whole notions of 'falling away' or 'acts as fruits of the spirit' etc. become less contentious.

I certainly haven't resolved this for myself (let alone am I proselytizing to others to agree with me), but the various doctrinal/dogmatic debates I think are more interesting when weighing such stuff.

Edit: had to add a different Richard Feynman time video. The one I'd watched is marked private now for whatever reason.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

---

I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.

Feel like I am in a court room.

---

Sorry! I've been listening to the Supreme Court cases on transgender sports all day so legal mind right now!

--------
You won't like my response now though.

What you've just articulated is the de facto Calvinistic response to salvation. That's why I was trying to give you as many outs as possible.

Only the elect will be saved and persevere and those who aren't elect will eventually fall away because they never had the true saving faith. Or said differently, those who persevere in their faith were the elect, and those who don't weren't.

---

Did you read my post that everyone is offered salvation? And they decide? But once they truly have saving faith and are emdued with the Holy Spirit, I believe there is nothing that can undo that.

I am not an attorney but am friends with a ton.
You are forgiven.

Now docs on the other hand…

---

I don't actually think a Calvinist would necessarily have a problem with that either.

They would simply say "everybody was offered salvation, but only the elect will persevere."

You're materially in the same spot as a Calvinist in that "only those with "true saving faith" will sustain.
--------
Beyond the theological issues I have with Calvinism, what you describe, and what they similarly describe seems to turn their faith inward.

How do you know you are "truly saved" except to constantly be inwardly judging your actions. When you're in a valley you begin to doubt whether it's saving faith. When at those peaks, another believers baptism because you know it.

----------
This is why I'd argue the historical church and by default Lutheranism has Baptism correct. Baptism isn't tied to our peaks and valleys, but to the promise gave us throughout the scriptures. When your in a valley you cling with all your might to your baptism, and when at a peak you remember the baptism that saves.

Can you fall away? Yes, but that doesn't mean you didn't have true faith. Can you come back? Yes absolutely.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

So Once Saved, Always saved?

Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"

---

Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.

I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".

---

Ok. Lets test this.

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

---

Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.

---

That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.

I'm asking about your claims.

How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.

---

I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,

In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.

And can we please keep this civil?

---

I've kept it civil?

You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.

So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.

Again my question is this:

Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.

However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.

Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?

I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."

I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.

To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?

Again, simply trying to understand your positions.

---

I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.

Feel like I am in a court room.

---

Sorry! I've been listening to the Supreme Court cases on transgender sports all day so legal mind right now!

--------
You won't like my response now though.

What you've just articulated is the de facto Calvinistic response to salvation. That's why I was trying to give you as many outs as possible.

Only the elect will be saved and persevere and those who aren't elect will eventually fall away because they never had the true saving faith. Or said differently, those who persevere in their faith were the elect, and those who don't weren't.

---

Did you read my post that everyone is offered salvation? And they decide? But once they truly have saving faith and are emdued with the Holy Spirit, I believe there is nothing that can undo that.

I am not an attorney but am friends with a ton.
You are forgiven.

Now docs on the other hand…

---

I don't actually think a Calvinist would necessarily have a problem with that either.

They would simply say "everybody was offered salvation, but only the elect will persevere."

You're materially in the same spot as a Calvinist in that "only those with "true saving faith" will sustain.
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Beyond the theological issues I have with Calvinism, what you describe, and what they similarly describe seems to turn their faith inward.

How do you know you are "truly saved" except to constantly be inwardly judging your actions. When you're in a valley you begin to doubt whether it's saving faith. When at those peaks, another believers baptism because you know it.

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This is why I'd argue the historical church and by default Lutheranism has Baptism correct. Baptism isn't tied to our peaks and valleys, but to the promise gave us throughout the scriptures. When your in a valley you cling with all your might to your baptism, and when at a peak you remember the baptism that saves.

Can you fall away? Yes, but that doesn't mean you didn't have true faith. Can you come back? Yes absolutely.

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We disagree on once truly saved, always saved. I could be wrong.

Very interesting debate and great points from both sides on what they believe. I personally have issue with the Montra " once saved always saved" simply because of what you had to say about not actually being saved. Your average non-Christian working toward conversion will likely be very confused on gods grace if you don't explain the importance of accepting the grace, so to say, they can't just says I believe and be saved, but that statement would imply otherwise. I think blanket statements like that serve to hurt Christianity more than help, but I could also be overthinking it.