dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
So Once Saved, Always saved?
Simply believe once, and then go about your business, since you're now "predestined to persevere?"
Not at all. If you are truly saved, you are changed. My experience is you do not want to sin anymore.
I would say "Once truly saved, always saved".
Ok. Lets test this.
Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.
However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.
Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?
Well, under your belief system, you could fall in or out of faith every day. I don't think Scripture supports that.
That's a non-answer as well as incorrect.
I'm asking about your claims.
How do you address the scenario I gave you, which is a very real scenario for tons and tons of people.
I do not believe they were ever really saved if they truly reject Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know we differ on that. And I could be wrong,
In my own experience, I believe a lot of self professed Christians reject the church and formal religion. They still are emdued with the Spirit and produce fruits.
And can we please keep this civil?
I've kept it civil?
You've made multiple claims or used certain words on here, that lead me to want to understand your position.
So far you've not answered twice. The first time you avoided it all together, the second time, you answered the question you wanted to answer instead of mine.
Again my question is this:
Lets say I believe for 15 years. I don't want to sin anymore.
However, after that I fall into temptation and give into sin and fall away.
Was I never truly saved? I just thought I was saved, but turns out no?
I'm not asking for your opinion of what you think I believe (which was incorrect). I'm not asking about "self-professed Christians [who] reject the church and formal religion."
I'm asking about self-professed Christians who fall away.
To use your terminology, were they "truly saved" for the period they were Christians and later not? Were they never "truly saved?" Something else?
Again, simply trying to understand your positions.
I believe they were never truly saved. And I gave my opinions. Not claims. And said I could be wrong.
Feel like I am in a court room.
Sorry! I've been listening to the Supreme Court cases on transgender sports all day so legal mind right now!
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You won't like my response now though.
What you've just articulated is the de facto Calvinistic response to salvation. That's why I was trying to give you as many outs as possible.
Only the elect will be saved and persevere and those who aren't elect will eventually fall away because they never had the true saving faith. Or said differently, those who persevere in their faith were the elect, and those who don't weren't.
Did you read my post that everyone is offered salvation? And they decide? But once they truly have saving faith and are emdued with the Holy Spirit, I believe there is nothing that can undo that.
I am not an attorney but am friends with a ton.
You are forgiven.
Now docs on the other hand…
I don't actually think a Calvinist would necessarily have a problem with that either.
They would simply say "everybody was offered salvation, but only the elect will persevere."
You're materially in the same spot as a Calvinist in that "only those with "true saving faith" will sustain.
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Beyond the theological issues I have with Calvinism, what you describe, and what they similarly describe seems to turn their faith inward.
How do you know you are "truly saved" except to constantly be inwardly judging your actions. When you're in a valley you begin to doubt whether it's saving faith. When at those peaks, another believers baptism because you know it.
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This is why I'd argue the historical church and by default Lutheranism has Baptism correct. Baptism isn't tied to our peaks and valleys, but to the promise gave us throughout the scriptures. When your in a valley you cling with all your might to your baptism, and when at a peak you remember the baptism that saves.
Can you fall away? Yes, but that doesn't mean you didn't have true faith. Can you come back? Yes absolutely.
We disagree on once truly saved, always saved. I could be wrong.
Because you've sort of created a "truly saved" definition. From what I can tell, you use a more restrictive definition than I do.
I simply believe all can be saved. That everybody can receive true salvation from God because he offered it to all. That some will reject it either immediately or over time does not discount the true nature of it.
As I think more about it, I think of Matthew 13:
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea.
2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach.
3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 He who has ears, let him hear."
"
18 "Hear then the parable of the sower:
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
20 A
s for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."
From what I understand, you're arguing that the bolded section is not "true grace or salvation" from Christ because they eventually fell away
I would argue you're making a claim and words to what Jesus said. He doesn't discount the bolded group. He doesn't claim their faith was different. In fact, he points out the joy they receive. Yet when challenged or persecuted, they give in and fall away.
It seems then, that you've looked at this category and determined they did not have true saving faith/salvation and that's not something that Jesus says. The only distinction he makes is the length of time with which they have faith...not a distinction between those kinds of faith (i.e. saving vs other).
