10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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A relatively recent datapoint I heard was that the Catholic Church is losing over 8 people for every one gained. Don't recall where I heard it.

That is the number I saw from Pew. I don't even know how you would collaborate it.

I imagine many of us see a growth locally and all have antidotes to Catholic vs Protestant conversion, but perhaps the global community is shrinking overall for both.

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Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Those would be the early church fathers who died handing on the bible through oral tradition and the transcribing of the scriptures generation after generation so that we could have the bible. And they died in the coliseum for this...Thanks to the early church fathers, we know the actual authors of the 4 gospels...

10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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As a Catholic that was a former Protestant convert from cradle- Catholicism, I can say that evangelical churches can be a breath of fresh air, in a sense, for cradle Catholics as it really simplifies the faith. Just read your bible was easy for me to wrap my head around. I eventually found it lacking, but it served an importanrt role in my life. But I only went that way because my Catholic upbringing had convicted me that God was real.

Unfortunately alot of evangelical types leave Christianity altogether because of the rigid biblical literalism that some branches teach. As a Catholic, the concept of evolution, or eternal hell or any number never shook my faith because of the way the Church teaches on thos topics, and I am grateful for that. For many fundamentalists, these are earth shattering issues. Most of these types went atheist when they left their churches. The rise in those leaving going to the Catholic or EO church instead of atheist is aided by the increase in access to church history, for which I'm extra grateful.

Are you RCC guys correct about the data? All of the data I've seen is that the RCC is declining in the US and is doing so rapidly.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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As a Catholic that was a former Protestant convert from cradle- Catholicism, I can say that evangelical churches can be a breath of fresh air, in a sense, for cradle Catholics as it really simplifies the faith. Just read your bible was easy for me to wrap my head around. I eventually found it lacking, but it served an importanrt role in my life. But I only went that way because my Catholic upbringing had convicted me that God was real.

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This is something I get more and more concerned (sometimes angry) about as it relates to the modern Protestant church. It often does dilute everything down into a couple of bullet points and becomes a check the box thing on Sunday. You and I obviously will not agree on what reformed theology teaches, but it has been wonderful to be part of a community that takes religion seriously again (after years of being in a modern Protestant type of church).

I understand why there would be widespread interest in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

Here's some data that is grim for the RCC Church and appears to contradict the assertions of growth and conversions made here:

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The data indicates that for every one person received into the Catholic Church, another 8.4 individuals have left the faith, either altogether or for another worship tradition. This increases the trend Pew found in 2014, when 6.5 Catholics left the faith for every person who entered.

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Pew: US Christianity downturn leveling, but Catholics suffer 'greatest net losses' - The Central Minnesota Catholic



The Catholic Church is In Trouble in Places Where it Used to Dominate

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Both Protestantism and Catholicism experience net loss from switching. In the 2023-24 RLS, 1.8 people have left Protestantism for every person who has become a Protestant after having been raised in another religious group or in no religion. The ratio for Catholicism is even more lopsided: For every U.S. adult who has become a Catholic after being raised in some other religion or without a religion, there are 8.4 adults who say they were raised in the Catholic faith but who no longer describe themselves as Catholics.35

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How Americans change, keep their religious identities over their lives | Pew Research Center

But neither RCC, EO, or Protestants should find any solace in the numbers. Those numbers indicate that the number of people who identify as Christians, no matter what the brand, is dropping precipitously.

KingofHazor said:

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Are you RCC guys correct about the data? All of the data I've seen is that the RCC is declining in the US and is doing so rapidly.

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I've heard it described like a rocket dropped out of a plane, then having it's engines turned on. In one way it's falling, but in another way it's also making progress. As long as the engines keep firing, the descent will eventually stop and the progress that was being made the whole time will become evident.

Right now the Catholic Church (and others, as you've noted) are losing members at a pretty high clip, and they are generally the type that showed up for mass once or twice a year. But the number of adult admissions into the Church are growing every year, and they're taking it seriously. If the incoming numbers keep doing what they're doing, the result will be massive growth in the actual Church attendance.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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I lived in PA for about 5 years and attended an evangelical church that I wasn't crazy about but there wasn't much to choose from. As you can imagine, PA is historically a very RCC area. However, about half the people at my church were former RCC.

It's anecdotal, but it comports with the data in the links above.

From what my former RCC friends told me about what they were taught or not taught in their old RCC churches, there seems to be a huge gulf between what RCC people on this forum claim that the RCC teaches vs. what is actually taught or not taught in most RCC churches. Almost invariably, my former RCC friends had never heard at all about salvation by faith and by grace in their former churches. All that they had been taught was salvation by works. They had never been encouraged to read the Bible for themselves but had been actively discouraged from doing so.

KingofHazor said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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I lived in PA for about 5 years and attended an evangelical church that I wasn't crazy about but there wasn't much to choose from. As you can imagine, PA is historically a very RCC area. However, about half the people at my church were former RCC.

It's anecdotal, but it comports with the data in the links above.

From what my former RCC friends told me about what they were taught or not taught in their old RCC churches, there seems to be a huge gulf between what RCC people on this forum claim that the RCC teaches vs. what is actually taught or not taught in most RCC churches. Almost invariably, my former RCC friends had never heard at all about salvation by faith and by grace in their former churches. All that they had been taught was salvation by works. They had never been encouraged to read the Bible for themselves but had been actively discouraged from doing so.

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I would have said the same thing after 9 years of Catholic school. That's why being introduced to evangelicalism was a breath of fresh air. Eventually I found it lacking. But I can promise you they were told about salvation by faith, that they can't earn their way to heaven, etc. I teach those classes now. I see that curriculum. It's all there.

The primary issue in Catholic circles is the generations from the 1940s-70s didn't teach their kids their faith. They farmed it out to Catholic schools and figured it would be ok. The problem is when religion becomes a "class" where you get a "grade", it's not going to be fully incorporated as something the kid is living out/believing/participating in. They just remember enough to get their grade and forget it immediately. No different than math or science.

From what I've seen in evangelical circles, they do a much better job of teaching their kids at home. All the strong, adult Catholics I know who never wavered had a vibrant Catholic life at home. I imagine it goes that way across all religions.

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From what I've seen in evangelical circles, they do a much better job of teaching their kids at home. All the strong, adult Catholics I know who never wavered had a vibrant Catholic life at home. I imagine it goes that way across all religions.

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Generally I agree with you completely. Parents who try to farm out religious instruction to church, sunday school, private religious school, etc. are failing their children.

As an exception that proves the rule, I had an uncle who converted to Catholicism and he was more devout and committed than any life-long Catholic I've ever met, including his wife who was a born and bred Catholic. As another example, my parents were good friends with Tom Howard, who was better known as the brother of Elizabeth (Betty) Elliot. Tom was a renowned evangelical scholar and professor who famously (at least in evangelical circles) converted to Roman Catholicism.

Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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Yes, I would agree.

Respectfully, we're getting your best and brightest, and you're getting our guys looking for a great coffee shop and a place the kids like to go to.

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No better example of someone who didn't read the links.

AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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Yes, I would agree.

Respectfully, we're getting your best and brightest, and you're getting our guys looking for a great coffee shop and a place the kids like to go to.

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No better example of someone who didn't read the links.

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Sorry I'm not going to be swayed by the substack of one *checks notes* Javier Perdomo

The numbers do not at all tell the full story. They're misleading and causing you to make false assumptions, due to no fault of your own. Being "Catholic" is not just a confessional religious identity like being a protestant evangelical or a Baptist or a Lutheran is. Catholicism is actually a culture where you have many people that are truly atheists but still call themselves Catholic because of their ancestry or culture around them (this is just over 50% of Catholics). On the other hand, you're not going to find some random atheist call themself a protestant by means of culture or ancestry... there is no wide protestant culture or society that tends to this.
So while you may have "Catholics" that leave for a protestant church, it's far more likely it's a cultural Catholic and not one that actually understands Church teaching and attends Mass.
Looking at it from an objective view outside of an American context, it's truly silly to think about an actual practicing Catholic leaving the faith for a protestant ecclesial community, especially considering American protestantism, not some of the respectable branches in Europe.

If anything, Orthodox are gaining more protestants than the RCC. However, between all three I believe it's a wash.
I agree with the above comment that RCC numbers (and muslim) numbers are inflated due to it being a culture more than an active, practicing member of the faith.

As the number of Catholics in the U.S. has grown by 40% in the past 40 years from 48 million to 67 million new hubs of Catholic life have emerged ranging from booming major metro areas to smaller communities that are punching well above their weight on vocations.

Several dioceses in the South and the West, centered on growing cities, have gained literally hundreds of thousands of Catholics in recent decades, to the point where some of those dioceses have found themselves lacking the infrastructure to accommodate the new crush of parishioners.
https://www.ncregister.com/news/where-is-catholicism-growing-in-the-us

At the same time, many areas of the country once considered Catholic strongholds particularly the Northeast and the Midwest have continued, in a decades-long trend, to see their Catholic population atrophy. In 1980, nearly 70% of the nation's Catholics lived in the Northeast or Midwest. By 2000, that percentage was 58%. And by 2019, it was just 47%, Church statistics show.

The number of practicing Catholics increased nationwide from 2010 to 2020, even as the number of churches shrank, according to an NBC News analysis of data from the U.S. Religion Census and U.S. Census Bureau (the two are not related). And the places where church attendance is growing shows a geographic realignment that is reshaping where and how American Catholicism thrives.


In the Northeast and Midwest historically Catholic strongholds the share and number of congregants declined during the past decade. In those two regions there are 3 million fewer Catholics than there were in 2010. Meanwhile, the opposite story played out across the South and West, where the Catholic population grew by 6 million.

https://www.nbcnews.com/data-graphics/catholic-growing-us-pope-leo-xiv-states-map-rcna206343

Hopefully the data is wrong because some of those make me sick

10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully the data is wrong because some of those make me sick

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There's unfortunately a lot of work to do across the board.

Either you're being intentionally ignorant, or you just really don't understand the data at all. Multiple posters have tried to explain how "Catholic" and "Orthodox" are not only religious titles, but also cultural ones. "Protestant" is not, it's purely religious.

AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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Yes, I would agree.

Respectfully, we're getting your best and brightest, and you're getting our guys looking for a great coffee shop and a place the kids like to go to.

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No better example of someone who didn't read the links.

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Sorry I'm not going to be swayed by the substack of one *checks notes* Javier Perdomo

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All the Substack did was distill the Pew Research down for everybody into legible comparisons.

You could have read the Pew Research data yourself, but I suspect you didn't do that either.

What it found:

29% of RCs & 23% of OXs attend religious services "at least once a week."
50% of Ev. Prots attend church "at least once a week."

67% of RCs & 59% of OXs say that they "Seldom/Never" read their Bibles.
51% of Ev. Prots read their Bible "at least once a week."

53% of OXs & 51% of RCs pray "at least daily."
72% of Ev. Prots pray "at least daily."

60% of OXs & 59% of RCs believe abortion should be "Legal in all/most cases."
33% of Ev. Prots believe abortion should be "Legal in all/most cases"

74% of RCs & 58% of OXs think homosexuality should be accepted by society.
36% of Prots think homosexuality should be accepted by society

And so on.

One might look at these results and conclude that the more one attends church, prays to God, and reads the Scriptures, the more likely they are to become Protestant.

That's not an argument I'm going to make, but these results seem to shatter your absurd claim.

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No, it's the fact that we have huge numbers of Hispanics who grew in a house with saint candles and call themselves Catholic, who haven't been to church since their baptism.

No one pretends to be a fan of the Colorado Rockies, so everyone claiming to be one is a diehard. Find a dude in a Yankees hat and there's a decent chance he can't name a player

You can barely get into St Thomas Aquinas in CS. If you're on time you're u set sully out of luck.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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Either you're being intentionally ignorant, or you just really don't understand the data at all. Multiple posters have tried to explain how "Catholic" and "Orthodox" are not only religious titles, but also cultural ones. "Protestant" is not, it's purely religious.

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I feel like any Christian in name that isn't a part of the Catholic or Orthodox churches gets lumped with Protestants. I am not so sure your statement is accurate.

AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I don't have time to make this a research project but Pew Research indicates that Christians are leaving BOTH Catholic and Protestant traditions faster than those joining. This is the real problem.

Furthermore, Pew also indicates that in general, more Catholic brethren leave for Protestant circles that the other way around. I hear that is because they actually have access to the Bible rather than just the fathers

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Javier Perdomo did a look at this exact thing as part of a substack:

Are Protestants becoming Roman Catholic: Are Protestants Mass-Converting to Roman Catholicism?

Religious practices: Who is More Devout: Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants?


Two long reads, but you are correct. Rome is losing many more people to Protestant groups than Protestants joining Rome.

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Yes, I would agree.

Respectfully, we're getting your best and brightest, and you're getting our guys looking for a great coffee shop and a place the kids like to go to.

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No better example of someone who didn't read the links.

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Sorry I'm not going to be swayed by the substack of one *checks notes* Javier Perdomo

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All the Substack did was distill the Pew Research down for everybody into legible comparisons.

You could have read the Pew Research data yourself, but I suspect you didn't do that either.

What it found:

29% of RCs & 23% of OXs attend religious services "at least once a week."
50% of Ev. Prots attend church "at least once a week."

67% of RCs & 59% of OXs say that they "Seldom/Never" read their Bibles.
51% of Ev. Prots read their Bible "at least once a week."

53% of OXs & 51% of RCs pray "at least daily."
72% of Ev. Prots pray "at least daily."

60% of OXs & 59% of RCs believe abortion should be "Legal in all/most cases."
33% of Ev. Prots believe abortion should be "Legal in all/most cases"

74% of RCs & 58% of OXs think homosexuality should be accepted by society.
36% of Prots think homosexuality should be accepted by society

And so on.

One might look at these results and conclude that the more one attends church, prays to God, and reads the Scriptures, the more likely they are to become Protestant.

That's not an argument I'm going to make, but these results seem to shatter your absurd claim.

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No, it's the fact that we have huge numbers of Hispanics who grew in a house with saint candles and call themselves Catholic, who haven't been to church since their baptism.

No one pretends to be a fan of the Colorado Rockies, so everyone claiming to be one is a diehard. Find a dude in a Yankees hat and there's a decent chance he can't name a player

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This is fun.

Roman Catholics on this board like to parade around that there are 1.4 billion Roman Catholics around the world.

However, now that we know the stats above, suddenly a significant portion (arguably the majority) aren't "real roman catholics" and instead "cultural catholics."

Or, maybe they are a better reflection of Rome than what yall think.

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How many members of your guatemalan lutheran sect are there?

Thaddeus73 said:

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Access to the early Church Fathers on the internet seems to be working!!!

https://cforc.com/2025/06/converts-rising-more-people-are-flocking-to-join-the-catholic-church/

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Candace Owens is a speaker for a Catholic event???