Cannon 11

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Zobel
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AG
Cannon 11 of the Council in Trullo says:
Quote:

Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman let him be cut off.

As part of a larger discussion this was offered up as some kind of gotcha. In that discussion I explained that canons (standards) don't function in identical ways, and literal following them isn't the right way to understand it. Much like the sentences of stoning were obviously not always carried out in the Torah ("Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death" would result in a lot of teenager executions if held woodenly literally) these are standards to be applied by bishops.

However, this doesn't mean they lapse or don't have force. So... is it wrong for an Orthodox Christian to go to a Jewish MD today? The answer is no, but not because we don't think this canon applies to us.

An "ancient epitome" is an early summary or condensed digest of a council's canons, produced for practical reference . It transmits the substance of the original canon in abbreviated form but does not carry independent authority apart from the underlying text. The ancient epitome of this canon is "Jewish unleavened bread is to be refused. Whoever even calls in Jews as physicians or bathes with them is to be deposed." This canon is like an expansion of canon 37 and 38 of Laodicea, which prevents feasting or receiving unleavened bread from Jews.

Unleavened bread is not merely bread, and accepting it in this context could signal participation in a Jewish Passover (widely condemned by the fathers) or a blurring of Eucharistic lines. This council focused a lot on Christian liturgical norms - including the debate over leavened or unleavened bread between east and west - so this is a clear reiteration of earlier regional canons aimed toward boundaries with ritual practice.

For receiving medicine or summoning in illness - you can't read this as going to a doctor in the modern sense; modern medicine didn't exist. In late antiquity medicine was not clearly distinguished from cosmology, ritual practice, or even sorcery. Jewish healers (much like Christian and pagan ones) operated within a worldview that illness often had spiritual causes. Healing could include amulets, scriptural recitation, personal ritual preparation, and so on. The canon here is about avoiding religious entanglement by participation, because medicine was not seen as religiously neutral.

Bathing is similar - the ancient epitome is "Christians are not to associate with Jews in their rites or public customs". Bathing was social, and Jewish baths could and did overlap with ritual purity practices, so this is avoiding ritualized social participation that blurs religious boundaries.

Finally, the one that seems the oddest to our modern eyes is "familiar intercourse". In the parlance of the time, intercourse means the interaction of life - sharing a meal, friendship, routine social interactions. "Familiar" intensifies this into something less casual and more relational. A modern translation would be something like "intimate social association." There were medieval Byzantine canonists named Theodore Balsamon and John Zonaras. They both suggest that this is relating to eating in religious contexts, joining festivals, and patterns of companionship that imply solidarity for Balsamon and avoiding doctrinal influence, imitation, and shared meals by Zonaras (habitual closeness that fosters shared ways of life). Neither view this is as ethnic isolation or some kind of impurity. The council of Antioch has similar canons on restricting clerics from social associations that could compromise the clarity of their ecclesial identity. In other words - do not live in such a way that your shared life suggests shared worship.

So all in all, this canon is aimed at protecting people from religious syncretism in a religiously porous society. The intent here is to guard against performing actions which could bleed into a gray area in worship. And, of course, this is still in effect for us today. We should not worship with others or live our lives in such a way that we may be seen as compromising our faith, or may incidentally engage in ritual acts with those who do not share our faith.

You don't need to check for a star of David with your doctor.
Zobel
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AG
Oh - and Christians shouldn't eat blood, either.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Zobel said:

Oh - and Christians shouldn't eat blood, either.

How does this get reconciled with the idea of Transubstantiation?
Zobel
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AG
That's the beautiful thing about it. In the scriptures blood is not just a biological substance, it is life itself, like "life stuff". That's why it is used to cleanse/wipe/cover sin ("death stuff") during the Day of Atonement. This is also why God commands Noah that humans are not to eat blood - so this applies to humanity as such, not Israel.

If you look at the trajectory of diet this is part of a larger anthropologicl arc. Humans start in the garden eating fruit, offered to them by creation where there is no death. Then after the fall, there is the death related to agriculture and humans eat by working and the death of living things. After the flood, animal meat is permitted, but with a boundary of no blood. So this prohibition is limiting the degree of the fall, limiting humans from becoming totally predatory.

In that symbol, consuming blood is consuming life directly, and to do that would make humans like beasts, true predators. So humans are given dominion, but restrained from being apex predators. It's like a moral limit for us as stewards and image-bearers of God.

Separately in the ancient world drinking blood and eating human flesh were closely related and linked to this idea. You have Greek lycanthrope (werewolf) myths where a human becomes a beast because of consuming blood or human flesh. Consuming blood was seen as a line between human and beast. And to your point, ancient Christians were accused of cannibalism (the ultimate anti-human / bestial act) because of the Eucharist.

Christians do not eat blood because the blood is life, it belongs to God, and it was not given to us to take. The Apostolic decree in Acts 15 is recognizing this in the Torah. It is a ontological limit as opposed to ritual purity.

In the Eucharist you see the inversion, which is super common in theological frameworks with Christ. Christ is the ultimate center, so in the center you get inversion of everything - the King who is a servant, the God who is a man, the mighty warrior who is meek and mild, and so on. The blood is inverted too. When He tells the Jews, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" they reject it because they hear the blood, and they know the commandment. But Christ's blood isn't taken from Him in violence, it is given in love. The blood, the life, belongs to God, and He freely gives it to us to give us life. It is "life stuff" par excellence, which destroys sin and gives life.
UTExan
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I am somewhat confused by your reasoning when the language is so clear.
Those rules seem to ban ordinary interactions with Jews. Which, in my humble opinion, explains much of the antisemitic pogroms in the Orthodox nation of Russia over the centuries.
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AgLiving06
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Quote:

However, this doesn't mean they lapse or don't have force. So... is it wrong for an Orthodox Christian to go to a Jewish MD today? The answer is no, but not because we don't think this canon applies to us.


This is the key statement. An acknowledgment that the EO recognizes the problem. Some canons are not practical. What this statement implicitly conveys is that the EO believes it has the authority to enforce or ignore the canons it chooses.

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I do want to point out the hypocrisy though. You come up with justifications for why this canon is not long "in effect." Mostly because of the relationship between the Jews and the Christians during that time period. None of which is in the canon itself, and so you are attempting to read a historical narrative into the canon. As you pointed out, we know next to nothing about this council, so we have no idea if anything you said is correct. But you claim it nonetheless.

And guess what? That's exactly the same scenario when the Council of Jerusalem was established.

The council was convened to address the very issue of claims from Jews against the Christians. And it is in that very context, that a canon was created, not as a law, but so that it "should not trouble the Gentiles." That's not commandment language. That's pastoral guidance (as Chrysostom pointed out).

And yet, you actively avoid applying the exact same logic to this canon you applied to avoid canon 11. That's the problem, and fortunately most of the church realized it and has treated it as such.
Zobel
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"language is so clear" is kind of a nonstarter when youre translating from a) another language and b) written over a thousand years ago. let the reader understand.

Balsamon and Zonaras lived in the late 1100s. Balsamon was a deacon and later became the patriarch of Antioch. Zonaras was a historian and monk. Neither take this to ban ordinary interactions with Jews.

So rather than this informing your view on Russian pogroms (Russia became orthodox some 300 years after this...) this is probably more of you interpreting this according to your existing opinions.
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

This is the key statement. An acknowledgment that the EO recognizes the problem. Some canons are not practical. What this statement implicitly conveys is that the EO believes it has the authority to enforce or ignore the canons it chooses.

its difficult to have a good faith discussion when you do this. there's nothing about practicality here. practicality is not in the picture. if the canon required us to do something impractical, then we would do something impractical. nowhere above did i say "this doesn't apply because it is impractical". even a mildly steelman approach here would say "this is being applied by intent over literal reading" - but not "this is being excused because it is impractical."

the second issue here is that there is no "the EO". there are bishops, and the bishops absolutely do have the authority to enforce the canons as they choose. they are judges, they have the authority to loose and bind, to apply. if a bishop comes to me and says "because of how I as your bishop am applying canon 11 to your life, you should not see a Jewish doctor" then i am obliged to do as he says. if he says, "the intent of canon 11 is to avoid religious problems, and as long as you're seeing a doctor on secular grounds but not, for example, praying with him, it's fine if he's jewish" that is not "ignoring" the canon, it is applying it.

Quote:

I do want to point out the hypocrisy though. You come up with justifications for why this canon is not long "in effect."

it's stupid for you to say that i say it's not "in effect" and use quotes, when the actual quote that i said was "of course, this is still in effect for us today"

as to the rest of your post, i have no idea what point you think you're trying to make. i suspect you don't either.

my stance is that the prohibition against blood is binding (St John, as you ignore, says they are "necessary" prohibitions) and this is as well. the application of the canon is done by those in authority, i.e., bishops.

i don't want to argue with you because you rarely attempt to engage, preferring insults and straw men. no part of your post directly addresses what i've written or even tries to grapple with it. as tomorrow is the start of lent, i'll likely be doing my annual "stay off of texags because it is probably bad for my soul" - so forgive me, a sinner.
AgLiving06
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Apologies, I was trying to give you an out by using practical.

The EO knows the canon itself is wrong, and so they don't follow it because of the obvious issues of anti-semitism. Is that better? You don't follow it because you know it's wrong.

Quote:

the second issue here is that there is no "the EO". there are bishops, and the bishops absolutely do have the authority to enforce the canons as they choose. they are judges, they have the authority to loose and bind, to apply.


This is exactly Luther's reductio ad absurdum argument. You and Rome demand that we follow councils and canons, but only the ones you deem worth following. Yet as is always the case when men, and not God, are in charge, there is disagreement on right and wrong. Ecclesial groups like the point out the disagreements in Protestantism, but it's no different with ecclesial groups.

I should only care about what Trullo says if, in my private judgment, I've decided the EO is correct. That's what you did. I could decide to be Roman Catholic or Lutheran and be completely justified in rejecting it.

Quote:

it's stupid for you to say that i say it's not "in effect" and use quotes, when the actual quote that i said was "of course, this is still in effect for us today"


It's in quotes because it's truly not in effect, you've simply changed the meaning of the canon to fit what you've deemed to be acceptable for this modern time.

From:

Quote:

Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman let him be cut off.


to

Quote:

We should not worship with others or live our lives in such a way that we may be seen as compromising our faith, or may incidentally engage in ritual acts with those who do not share our faith.


It's just a sleight of hand to soften and avoid what the canon said.

And I get it. It's a horrible canon.

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Quote:

as to the rest of your post, i have no idea what point you think you're trying to make. i suspect you don't either.

my stance is that the prohibition against blood is binding (St John, as you ignore, says they are "necessary" prohibitions) and this is as well. the application of the canon is done by those in authority, i.e., bishops.

i don't want to argue with you because you rarely attempt to engage, preferring insults and straw men. no part of your post directly addresses what i've written or even tries to grapple with it. as tomorrow is the start of lent, i'll likely be doing my annual "stay off of texags because it is probably bad for my soul" - so forgive me, a sinner.


To quote you..."It's difficult to have a good-faith discussion when you do this."

You spent 5 paragraphs "justifying what the canon truly means" to discuss why you don't have to literally follow it. You can go to a Jewish doctor because of "X" reason. You can be friends with Jews for "Y" reason, etc.

We see in Acts 15 exactly why the council was called:

Quote:

But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."


So, under the very logic that YOU used to justify why you can ignore canon 11, I could point to this very context and make the exact same argument that the outcome was temporarily related to this issue. And that the likes of Paul saw no need to enforce this with the other gentile groups he wrote to.

Since we aren't being accused by Pharisees, the subsequent canons are not relevant.

And guess what...that's exactly how the Church Fathers interpreted this passage.
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Finally, I don't strawman, but I do respond in kind. I'm respectful to those who are respectful and have a lot more fun with those who make wild claims.

I have always treated you with respect, up to and including this conversation since we've met in person.

In fact, I went so far in the other thread as to say:

Quote:

It has been years, but I've met at least 2 EO from this board in person. Both are great and genuine believers.

I've also been to several EO churches in Houston.

There is certainly a divide along the cultural and the converted lines.


I was not the one to call out the EO with a vague claim that fell apart under scrutiny. That was you:

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News to me that Lutherans accept all seven ecumenical councils.

Quote:

Anyone who's going to assert that Lutheranism strictly follows the canons of the ecumenical councils should be rightly laughed out of the room. Luther didn't even consider the council of Jerusalem as binding in his own words. See: On the councils and the churches.

The pivot is going to be: "we accept them but judge them against scripture" which, like everything else, subordinates them to individual opinion.

Quote:

"We follow the councils unless we don't think they comport with scripture" is just "we do whatever we think scripture says" which also describes all heresies.

And Luther doesnt even pass THAT low bar because the council in the scriptures he freely rejects.


and so forth.

If you think that's being respectful or trying to spur conversation, then we have very different ideas.
swimmerbabe11
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In a modern sense, this sounds very similar to me saying I'm happy to go to a pilates class but I won't do yoga no matter how many puppies goats beer or other goodies you add to the mix.


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Severian the Torturer
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UTExan said:

I am somewhat confused by your reasoning when the language is so clear.
Those rules seem to ban ordinary interactions with Jews. Which, in my humble opinion, explains much of the antisemitic pogroms in the Orthodox nation of Russia over the centuries.


Based


On what
UTExan
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Severian the Torturer said:

UTExan said:

I am somewhat confused by your reasoning when the language is so clear.
Those rules seem to ban ordinary interactions with Jews. Which, in my humble opinion, explains much of the antisemitic pogroms in the Orthodox nation of Russia over the centuries.


Based


On what

Er, history? Pogroms in Catholic-majority areas of Europe were a given, often excluding Jews from certain occupations and ownership of agricultural lands from the Middle Ages onwards. In Russia, they became especially violent during the 19th century, beginning in 1821. Ironically, they triggered both mass immigration to the US and Zionism as Jews realized they would never have legal and physical protections except in their own homeland. The Wiki treatment of this is not bad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire

And of course there was the Khmelnytsky Uprising, which targeted Jews, among others in 1648.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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