Is Sola Scriptura Misunderstood?

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AGC
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KingofHazor said:

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Having left the Baptist world, the origin of Sola scriptura is different than the modern day usage of it. But if the misunderstanding of it is so great that each non-denominational or Baptist church body functionally follows what Thaddeus posted (as individuals inside the body) then that's what matters. Not who their pastor quotes or originally relied on. It's a feature, not a bug.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you claiming that all RCC and EO members always accurately summarize the beliefs of those faiths? I've known many from both faiths whose statements would likely make you blush. Contrary to your point, one of the great influences in my parents' faith was an older Greek gentleman, who grew up Orthodox, and left it for Protestantism for many reasons, not the least of which was the deadness in the EO. You guys are comparing the Baptist denomination, which has been acculturated here in the US, to the EO which is new and relatively vibrant in the US. The EO in countries where it has existed for centuries is considerably different than what you experience here.

Also, your experience at one or a few Baptist churches doesn't represent what Protestantism generally believes. Nor do Baptists collectively speak for all Protestants.

But to some extent you're right. Individual choice in beliefs is a feature of Protestantism and is one of its great appeals and strengths. Protestantism allows for reform when error and corruption creeps into Christ's church. The RCC and EO are designed to prevent reform, claiming against all evidence that no error has crept into those institutions. (And, despite your and the RCC claims to the contrary, you also make that individual choice. You chose to leave the Baptist church and join the EO. You decided that EO doctrine is more in alignment than Baptist doctrine. So to what extent are you any different than Protestants?)

Finally, why do you guys spend so much time and make so many posts criticizing Protestantism? Don't we all have a greater, common foe? What do you hope to accomplish by incessantly criticizing others who follow Christ as both Savior and Lord?


You're right, you don't understand. My comment has nothing to do with the RCC or EO, or anyone else. It is just to say, a process is what it does.

We can talk about what Luther meant, and everyone that followed him: that's not a problem. But that's what it means to you, which is the greater point. Church and individual autonomy is highly important in Baptist non-denom circles (though that's changing as culture changes and the need for foundation is gaining importance).

Each person picks and chooses their own cultural reference point and historical figures, much as they choose who disciples them or the small group they're part of. The multiplicity of choice is important to the denomination. You can't bind anyone up with the people you refer to; it's lowest common denominator Christianity and it's intentional.

None of this is meant as an insult, so much as a description. Historical figures and understanding are only rewarded so much as a pastor or Sunday school teacher or pew sitter believe them to be. Sure, Martin Luther meant something totally different. Sure, the men you quoted discuss it at length. And there's a modern cultural movement to recapture Christian disciplines that have been jettisoned through time (though not all accidentally). But it just kind of is, as an idea and concept, and you can't put it back in the box. So since it isn't practiced the way you describe it, it's not an unfair criticism.
KingofHazor
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What you describe is a strength, isn't it? With individual choice comes individual responsibility. It also allows for continual reform and helps protect against institutionalized corruption and false teaching.

Your way is a weakness, unless you believe that your church, with all of the thousands of changes over the centuries, is perfect and infallible.

That belief, in the infallibility of your particular church, is an assumption that cannot be established by scripture, tradition, logic, or facts.

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.
AGC
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KingofHazor said:

What you describe is a strength, isn't it? With individual choice comes individual responsibility. It also allows for continual reform and helps protect against institutionalized corruption and false teaching.

Your way is a weakness, unless you believe that your church, with all of the thousands of changes over the centuries, is perfect and infallible.

That belief, in the infallibility of your particular church, is an assumption that cannot be established by scripture, tradition, logic, or facts.

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.


No. You've overplayed your hand, and you don't appear to know who you're debating at this point (I'm not RCC).
10andBOUNCE
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KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.

I am confused. With TULIP, God decides everything, correct? We are either unelect and therefore damned, or elect and therefore saved. With that belief, how can our own individual beliefs or actions affect anything except rewards beyond salvation?

And fwiw, I agree we are all individually responsible and that the Bible teaches that. One of the reasons I am not Calvinist/Reformed.
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dermdoc
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And to the OP, the problem with Sola Scriptura is obviously in how one interprets the words, which of course, are words. Interpretation is the key. Go to a Christian book store. There are hundreds of books which I believe are all written by sincere, Spirit filled Christians for the most part. And they have studied Scripture for decades. Yet they come up with completely different interpretations. All are men. Even the magesterium or Orthodox fathers. Basically "Sola Scriptura" came about because of church abuses with indulgences, etc. The church used its ability to dictate theology to commit abuses in some cases.

That is why I think Paul stressed he tried to preach the simple Gospel. We are sinners, separated from God and needed the cross to reconcile us back to God. Jesus died and rose on the third day defeating sin and death and sits at the right hand of the Father. As individuals, we need to realize we are separated from God by sin and need Jesus to save us from sin and death. That is the Gospel.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.

I am confused. With TULIP, God decides everything, correct? We are either unelect and therefore damned, or elect and therefore saved. With that belief, how can our own individual beliefs or actions affect anything except rewards beyond salvation?

And fwiw, I agree we are all individually responsible and that the Bible teaches that. One of the reasons I am not Calvinist/Reformed.

Have posted this before and will always stand by it. The Bible speaks to both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. How those two are perfectly reconciled are only known to God and his secret will.

dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.

I am confused. With TULIP, God decides everything, correct? We are either unelect and therefore damned, or elect and therefore saved. With that belief, how can our own individual beliefs or actions affect anything except rewards beyond salvation?

And fwiw, I agree we are all individually responsible and that the Bible teaches that. One of the reasons I am not Calvinist/Reformed.

Have posted this before and will always stand by it. The Bible speaks to both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. How those two are perfectly reconciled are only known to God and his secret will.



I agree with you. Calvinism does not. TULIP is pretty emphatic as to how it works. I will say that was very well done by MacArthur and surprisingly not stern or dogmatic. We truly don't know how it all works.

I believe you and I agree on almost everything except the nature of hell. I disagree with TULiP and believe it is not Biblical.
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AGC
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10andBOUNCE said:

KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.


Wives submit to your husbands, as unto Christ. Slaves submit to your master. Does Christ not count your submission as obedience to Himself, being appointed earthly authorities?

James 3:1 certainly implies there is accountability for what you teach and do with your mouth. The role of a priest is intercessor, and there is not only an earthly but heavenly priesthood. Who do they intercede for, if not for those in the church, the saints?

Perhaps you read those things differently.
10andBOUNCE
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I think you over emphasize TULIP. It is simply a helpful tool to summarize key doctrinal points within reformed theology. In my 4 years at a reformed church, it has been mentioned less than 5 times, if I had to guess.
10andBOUNCE
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Can you restate your question. I may be moving slowly on a Monday.
AGC
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10andBOUNCE said:

Can you restate your question. I may be moving slowly on a Monday.


We will be accountable for more than just our own words and actions if we lead others, because we may lead them astray. This is Luther's burden of the modern Sola era, of course, since it has become something entirely different.

In that same vein, we are also called to submit constantly, and will be judged based on how well we submit. A disconnect grows when one says judgement will only occur based on the individual's actions. If submission is conditional on what you personally think about an authority, it's not submission.

These are both New Testament examples of how the simplicity of 'I'm only judged for me" is not in accordance with our teaching, now or historically.
10andBOUNCE
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I'm not so sure it is as simple is "solo accountability" if we wanna add another sola.

As a father and husband I believe I will have accountability for my actions. A pastor/bishop/elder has greater accountability for those they oversee and shepherd.

I don't think I have any particular issue at what you're getting at.
KingofHazor
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How have I overplayed my hand? And did I say you were RCC?
dermdoc
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AGC said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Can you restate your question. I may be moving slowly on a Monday.


We will be accountable for more than just our own words and actions if we lead others, because we may lead them astray. This is Luther's burden of the modern Sola era, of course, since it has become something entirely different.

In that same vein, we are also called to submit constantly, and will be judged based on how well we submit. A disconnect grows when one says judgement will only occur based on the individual's actions. If submission is conditional on what you personally think about an authority, it's not submission.

These are both New Testament examples of how the simplicity of 'I'm only judged for me" is not in accordance with our teaching, now or historically.

I believe when we are justified we are no longer judged according to our sins and are rewarded for our fruits. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I think you over emphasize TULIP. It is simply a helpful tool to summarize key doctrinal points within reformed theology. In my 4 years at a reformed church, it has been mentioned less than 5 times, if I had to guess.


Maybe so but when you read about Calvinism that is what is mentioned as its hallmark theology. Very harsh in my opinion.

And I have never heard any Calvinist/Reformed pastors speaking out against it which is very telling to me.
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10andBOUNCE
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I don't think a Calvinist is going to speak out against TULIP.

"There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer that I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me if I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply that I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it."
-C.H. Spurgeon
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I don't think a Calvinist is going to speak out against TULIP.

"There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer that I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me if I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply that I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it."
-C.H. Spurgeon


And this to me is the disconnect. Calvinism is defined by TULIP by most theologians and scholars. Yet you are saying it is not emphasized and not really the foundation of Calvinism? Sorry but I am confused.
Is Calvinism not defined by TULIP?
And I love Spurgeon. Not sure he really believed TULIP from his preaching.
If Calvinism is not defined by TULIP or double predestination, it is worth another look.
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KingofHazor
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derm, you've taken another thread that had nothing, or very little, to do with Calvinism and single-handedly turned it to that. Does every thread on this board have to be about Calvinism? Are you making any new points or the same ones you've always made?

We get it. You don't like double-predestination or eternal damnation. Perhaps you can come up with a symbol that, when you post it, will be shorthand for your opposition to Calvinism?

I don't agree with much of Calvinism, either, but enough is enough perhaps.

Beware, if you keep this up, I'll start bombing the board relentlessly on YEC, the historical accuracy of the OT, and why the Pope is the anti-Christ (just largely kidding on that last one)!
Thaddeus73
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I would just add that the main theme of the NT is love, forgiveness, and mercy. None of those things are mentioned in the 5 solas or TULIP. Believing in a man made doctrine such as sola scriptura or TULIP seems to me to miss the entire point of the NT - love, forgiveness, and mercy...
dermdoc
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KingofHazor said:

derm, you've taken another thread that had nothing, or very little, to do with Calvinism and single-handedly turned it to that. Does every thread on this board have to be about Calvinism? Are you making any new points or the same ones you've always made?

We get it. You don't like double-predestination or eternal damnation. Perhaps you can come up with a symbol that, when you post it, will be shorthand for your opposition to Calvinism?

I don't agree with much of Calvinism, either, but enough is enough perhaps.

Beware, if you keep this up, I'll start bombing the board relentlessly on YEC, the historical accuracy of the OT, and why the Pope is the anti-Christ (just largely kidding on that last one)!


I get it. It is just when Calvinist/Reformed folks post stuff that definitely is not classic Calvinism/Reformed theology it triggers me. I will get better.
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KingofHazor
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Thaddeus73 said:

I would just add that the main theme of the NT is love, forgiveness, and mercy. None of those things are mentioned in the 5 solas or TULIP. Believing in a man made doctrine such as sola scriptura or TULIP seems to me to miss the entire point of the NT - love, forgiveness, and mercy...

What? Again, your obsession with Protestants.

You willing to abandon the "three-legged stool"? Sola scriptura is not man-made; it comes right from multiple verses in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 4:6, Acts 17:11, Psalm 119:105, Mattew 7:24, Proverbs 30:5-6. Sola scriptura is no more "man made" than is the divinity of Christ or the inspiration of scripture.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

I get it. It is just when Calvinist/Reformed folks post stuff that definitely is not Calvinism/Reformed theology it triggers me. I will get better.

I get it. My trigger is when people use science to try to interpret (i.e., rewrite) Scripture.
10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

KingofHazor said:

derm, you've taken another thread that had nothing, or very little, to do with Calvinism and single-handedly turned it to that. Does every thread on this board have to be about Calvinism? Are you making any new points or the same ones you've always made?

We get it. You don't like double-predestination or eternal damnation. Perhaps you can come up with a symbol that, when you post it, will be shorthand for your opposition to Calvinism?

I don't agree with much of Calvinism, either, but enough is enough perhaps.

Beware, if you keep this up, I'll start bombing the board relentlessly on YEC, the historical accuracy of the OT, and why the Pope is the anti-Christ (just largely kidding on that last one)!


I get it. It is just when Calvinist/Reformed folks post stuff that definitely is not classic Calvinism/Reformed theology it triggers me. I will get better.

Since you have already ripped the bandaid off, what have I said that is not in line with your classic definition of reformed theology?
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

KingofHazor said:

derm, you've taken another thread that had nothing, or very little, to do with Calvinism and single-handedly turned it to that. Does every thread on this board have to be about Calvinism? Are you making any new points or the same ones you've always made?

We get it. You don't like double-predestination or eternal damnation. Perhaps you can come up with a symbol that, when you post it, will be shorthand for your opposition to Calvinism?

I don't agree with much of Calvinism, either, but enough is enough perhaps.

Beware, if you keep this up, I'll start bombing the board relentlessly on YEC, the historical accuracy of the OT, and why the Pope is the anti-Christ (just largely kidding on that last one)!


I get it. It is just when Calvinist/Reformed folks post stuff that definitely is not classic Calvinism/Reformed theology it triggers me. I will get better.

Since you have already ripped the bandaid off, what have I said that is not in line with your classic definition of reformed theology?


Do you consider TULIP classic Calvinist/Refromed theology?
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

KingofHazor said:

Individual responsibility is what the Bible teaches. When the final judgment day comes, none of us will be allowed to hide behind what our church teaches. We will each be accountable to God for our own individual beliefs and actions. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find communal responsibility or accountability.

Amen.


How does this post jive with preordained election? Or are you saying you will be saved but held indivually responsible? Does that include punishment?
I mean, from what I can glean it is all God's responsibility. Not the individual.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I think you over emphasize TULIP. It is simply a helpful tool to summarize key doctrinal points within reformed theology. In my 4 years at a reformed church, it has been mentioned less than 5 times, if I had to guess.


And why is not mentioned more if it is classic Calvinist/Reformed theology? And then you state a Calvinist would never speak out against TULIP.
Seems illogical.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

To answer your thread title question, yes it is misunderstood, both by non-Protestants and Protestants alike.

I spent the last year digging into church history for really the first time in my life. I'm ashamed it took me so long to get into it, and I will assign partial blame to the modern Protestant church as it is mostly disregarded, at least in my experience. So far, it has truly enriched my faith and has given me new energy and appreciation for the early church fathers and tradition. It makes me eager to continue participating in the same things the early church did. We obviously have some disagreement on some of that but we can agree that's not what we are interested in here.

I will continue to beat the Sola Scriptura drum, however I do believe there is an important place for tradition. To your point, yes, it absolutely should fall within the bounds of scripture. I have also heard the "solo" descriptor and I would also agree that "sola" is the more appropriate word and there is a distinction to be made.

Bottom line, tradition is important and most Protestants do not rightly appreciate it or really even know it. I am all for embracing it so far as Scripture would regulate and allow it.


And I love your post. It that is not classic Calvinism either.
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dermdoc
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And I will not post on this thread anymore unless asked. Like I was.
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10andBOUNCE
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Reformed theology doesn't reject man's responsibility.
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

You willing to abandon the "three-legged stool"? Sola scriptura is not man-made; it comes right from multiple verses in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 4:6, Acts 17:11, Psalm 119:105, Mattew 7:24, Proverbs 30:5-6. Sola scriptura is no more "man made" than is the divinity of Christ or the inspiration of scripture.

Nobody for the first 1500 years of Christianity believed in "sola scriptura." Misinterpreting scripture to come up with "sola scriptura" is a huge error in understanding the Bible...
10andBOUNCE
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This further proves the OP question of sola scriptura being misunderstood. Many of the revered fathers, at least from what I can tell in their writings, attributed scripture as the highest and only infallible authority.
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

Many of the revered fathers, at least from what I can tell in their writings, attributed scripture as the highest and only infallible authority.

We all still do, but in the original meaning, not 15th century personal interpretation of what the reformers wished it meant....
10andBOUNCE
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Rome attributes scripture higher that tradition? That is not my understanding if so.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Reformed theology doesn't reject man's responsibility.

For salvation?
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