Agree.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Philosophical/religious question

With current events in the world, I see a lot of people celebrating the death of specific individuals, as well non-specific peoples. For example, the leader of Iran would be a specific person, and non-specific would be seeing a group of soldiers hit by a missile.

Does this strike anyone else as messed up? And against most religious/moral frameworks?

For example, Epstein. Even if 5% of what we know is true, he probably deserved the death penalty. But I'm not going to dance on a man's grave. Same with folks like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, and others. Or even people like George Floyd, or the kid who punched a cop in the car and got shot. Or even Alex Preti, and the other lady, shot by ICE. I see people mocking these deaths, or worse.

I think there is a difference between viewing someone's death as justified, or disagreeing with their actions that led to their death. But I think once they are dead, that should be it. To celebrate it, just seems crude and unGodly.

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I agree that celebrating their deaths is distasteful. But I also think being a victim is different than someone who read about the atrocities in the news.

I will give grace to the victims who are celebrating the death and also recognize the celebration may not be just because he died but because it is seen as the end of the suffering. Thinking specifically of Iranians, the death of "supreme leader" coincides with what is hopefully the beginning of the end of the regime. It isn't just because he died. I doubt they would be celebrating if he died from old age as that would really just mean someone else would take his place and the suffering would continue.

I think it's ok and it depends on the person. They all have graduated levels of joy when they die for me. For someone like George Floyd or boneheads getting killed by ICE, eh, that sucks but I'm not celebrating or thinking about it much longer after it happens.

For someone that intentionally hurts other people like Mcveigh and Bundy…hell yeah, I celebrate the **** out of that. The only disappointment is that it didn't happen sooner or you can't kill tbem more than once. But yeah, glad they are gone, raise a glass to toast their exit from this planet early and often.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

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Real.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

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Actually, I really like that take. To be fair, there is no guarantee that anyone's after-life is assured to be with God - in my opinion. But yes, good people, family, etc., are now in a better place is a comforting thought and I think it is fair to celebrate their life and be happy they are no longer in this world full of suffering and chaos.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

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Pretty sad if this is the unpopular take. Pretty sure this is the mainline Christian teaching across all traditions and denominations.

It's hard for me to look at the story of Paul and then celebrate anyone's death, no matter how evil. He was actively hunting and killing Christians until his conversion, and then he became an enormous part of God's plan. We should be praying for God to turn Sauls into Pauls, and mourning the deaths of all the potential Pauls out there

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They are not just celebrating death. They are celebrating human beings going to ECT hell. Think about that. Who thinks like that?

dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

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Pretty sad if this is the unpopular take. Pretty sure this is the mainline Christian teaching across all traditions and denominations.

It's hard for me to look at the story of Paul and then celebrate anyone's death, no matter how evil. He was actively hunting and killing Christians until his conversion, and then he became an enormous part of God's plan. We should be praying for God to turn Sauls into Pauls, and mourning the deaths of all the potential Pauls out there

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They are not just celebrating death. They are celebrating human beings going to ECT hell. Think about that. Who thinks like that?

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Really twisted people

Captain Pablo said:

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dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

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Pretty sad if this is the unpopular take. Pretty sure this is the mainline Christian teaching across all traditions and denominations.

It's hard for me to look at the story of Paul and then celebrate anyone's death, no matter how evil. He was actively hunting and killing Christians until his conversion, and then he became an enormous part of God's plan. We should be praying for God to turn Sauls into Pauls, and mourning the deaths of all the potential Pauls out there

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They are not just celebrating death. They are celebrating human beings going to ECT hell. Think about that. Who thinks like that?

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Really twisted people

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And they are preaching this to kids.

dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

---

Pretty sad if this is the unpopular take. Pretty sure this is the mainline Christian teaching across all traditions and denominations.

It's hard for me to look at the story of Paul and then celebrate anyone's death, no matter how evil. He was actively hunting and killing Christians until his conversion, and then he became an enormous part of God's plan. We should be praying for God to turn Sauls into Pauls, and mourning the deaths of all the potential Pauls out there

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We have preachers like Paul Washer saying we will be applauding watching the reprobate going to ECT hell. This Christian will not. And I do not believe God will either.
https://share.google/3dBUMwKHz1wbfDi7C

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Please stop. Paul Washer is not celebrating people being in hell. It's nothing but slander.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Unpopular take:

Celebrating death is only acceptable in the death of someone whose after-life is assured to be with God in heaven.

The death of any other prevents their reconciliation with God and however justified, is no cause for celebration.

---

Pretty sad if this is the unpopular take. Pretty sure this is the mainline Christian teaching across all traditions and denominations.

It's hard for me to look at the story of Paul and then celebrate anyone's death, no matter how evil. He was actively hunting and killing Christians until his conversion, and then he became an enormous part of God's plan. We should be praying for God to turn Sauls into Pauls, and mourning the deaths of all the potential Pauls out there

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We have preachers like Paul Washer saying we will be applauding watching the reprobate going to ECT hell. This Christian will not. And I do not believe God will either.
https://share.google/3dBUMwKHz1wbfDi7C

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Please stop. Paul Washer is not celebrating people being in hell. It's nothing but slander.

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Slander? How do you interpret this? Is Washer not one of the ones applauding? Do you agree with his statements? What kind of person applauds anyone going to ECT hell?
And can you give me Scriptural references that supports Washer's stance? Thanks.

This idea you are trying to pin against Paul Washer simply is contrary to his life's work. This is a man who has mostly dedicated his life to spreading and preaching the gospel to nations that do not have it. Tell me why he would possibly commit his life to this if you believe he is in someway happy about those who are perishing apart from Christ?

His missionary work early on for the better part of a decade involved reaching out to indigenous and rural communities in Peru, where he tried to raise up indigenous people to lead churches for themselves. I wonder if he would give high fives when these indigenous peoples would reject the gospel. After all, Washer is just one of those crazy hyper Calvinists, who believes that God will save who he wills and what care of it is ours? He essentially must be a crazy person for entering the mission field, right?

Beyond that, he went on to establish HeartCry Ministries which seeks to develop missionaries in their indigenous lands by providing sound teaching, complete discipleship, and other support to enable these local people's to influence their own. So I ask again what is the point of all of this? I guess you found the silver bullet that proves that he is a liar and hypocrite. Bravo!

No, Washer continues to be about preaching the gospel around the world, focusing on sincere and true belief versus a superficial proclamation. While you certainly take exception to some of his doctrinal beliefs, I find it hard to believe that you can sit behind a screen and cast stones at someone who has dedicated his life to spreading the good news of Christ. Instead, what you do is focus on one message or sentence that someone says and smear their name and all the work they have done previously and explicitly for Jesus. This is what causes division in today's Christian landscape.

Some of the stories I was able to glean from some of his sermons, involve the joy that it brings to him seeing these indigenous people make such an impact on their own. But again, he must surely be a hypocrite. Because his true joy is knowing that those who do not believe upon Jesus are entering the gates of hell. Do I have that right? Or perhaps all the suffering, perseverance, and commitment to the gospel proves his love for people and the glory of Jesus.

Maybe we could learn something from Paul Washer.

10andBOUNCE said:

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This idea you are trying to pin against Paul Washer simply is contrary to his life's work. This is a man who has mostly dedicated his life to spreading and preaching the gospel to nations that do not have it. Tell me why he would possibly commit his life to this if you believe he is in someway happy about those who are perishing apart from Christ?

His missionary work early on for the better part of a decade involved reaching out to indigenous and rural communities in Peru, where he tried to raise up indigenous people to lead churches for themselves. I wonder if he would give high fives when these indigenous peoples would reject the gospel. After all, Washer is just one of those crazy hyper Calvinists, who believes that God will save who he wills and what care of it is ours? He essentially must be a crazy person for entering the mission field, right?

Beyond that, he went on to establish HeartCry Ministries which seeks to develop missionaries in their indigenous lands by providing sound teaching, complete discipleship, and other support to enable these local people's to influence their own. So I ask again what is the point of all of this? I guess you found the silver bullet that proves that he is a liar and hypocrite. Bravo!

No, Washer continues to be about preaching the gospel around the world, focusing on sincere and true belief versus a superficial proclamation. While you certainly take exception to some of his doctrinal beliefs, I find it hard to believe that you can sit behind a screen and cast stones at someone who has dedicated his life to spreading the good news of Christ. Instead, what you do is focus on one message or sentence that someone says and smear their name and all the work they have done previously and explicitly for Jesus. This is what causes division in today's Christian landscape.

Some of the stories I was able to glean from some of his sermons, involve the joy that it brings to him seeing these indigenous people make such an impact on their own. But again, he must surely be a hypocrite. Because his true joy is knowing that those who do not believe upon Jesus are entering the gates of hell. Do I have that right? Or perhaps all the suffering, perseverance, and commitment to the gospel proves his love for people and the glory of Jesus.

Maybe we could learn something from Paul Washer.

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All I did was post his actual quotes. You accused me of slander. From Washer's actual quote I posted I disagree. Where did I accuse him of being a hypocrite? Or any of the stuff you posted.
Do you believe the Washer quote I posted is compatible with Scripture? Is it a sincere and true belief? Because that is all I was asking.
And I lov you brother. Sorry I ticked you off.

You don't get it. I really don't care about the quote. The Bible is filled with offensive quotes when taken out of context.

10andBOUNCE said:

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You don't get it. I really don't care about the quote. The Bible is filled with offensive quotes when taken out of context.

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Do you think what he said was Biblical? Are there examples of this in Scripture? Do you agree with what he said?

What am I not getting? I simply posted a quote and disagreed with it. You accused me of slander. You are correct, I don't get it. Seems illogical.

You didn't simply post it...you repeatedly post it anytime a discussion comes up about death and hell. It is like you get excited to laser focus on this one sentence a Calvinist said. You repeatedly trash Washer's name despite his life's work that has been gospel focused, in ways you or I would never even entertain doing.

Your mind is made up on him, and I have no doubt you'll be ready to pounce with your excerpt next time. I have made my defense and rest my case.

Will allow the thread to continue as it was intended.

10andBOUNCE said:

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You didn't simply post it...you repeatedly post it anytime a discussion comes up about death and hell. It is like you get excited to laser focus on this one sentence a Calvinist said. You repeatedly trash Washer's name despite his life's work that has been gospel focused, in ways you or I would never even entertain doing.

Your mind is made up on him, and I have no doubt you'll be ready to pounce with your excerpt next time. I have made my defense and rest my case.

Will allow the thread to continue as it was intended.

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Fair enough my friend. I stand by my convictions that I did not commit slander by merely posting a man's actual words HE spoke. I also stand by my conviction that what Washer said has no Scriptural basis. And that is really the crux of the issue. As the spiritual head of my family, I do not want my kids or grandkids exposed to false, especially fear based, theology. I believe it is very harmful.
As far as the thread topic, celebrating death and applauding people going to ECT hell seem connected. Maybe I am wrong.

Outside of doctrinal differences I do celebrate when people who engage in/fund the widespread mass slaughter of not just their own people, but 'unbelievers' are wiped from this mortal coil. Maybe that is un-Christian of me, but I think it is a net good thing for humanity.

War p0rn is a bad (modern) thing and some certainly celebrate, in certain corners/places the death of soldiers/sailors/airmen etc. on the side they disagree with. I think that's pretty grotesque, tbf.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Philosophical/religious question

With current events in the world, I see a lot of people celebrating the death of specific individuals, as well non-specific peoples. For example, the leader of Iran would be a specific person, and non-specific would be seeing a group of soldiers hit by a missile.

Does this strike anyone else as messed up? And against most religious/moral frameworks?

For example, Epstein. Even if 5% of what we know is true, he probably deserved the death penalty. But I'm not going to dance on a man's grave. Same with folks like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, and others. Or even people like George Floyd, or the kid who punched a cop in the car and got shot. Or even Alex Preti, and the other lady, shot by ICE. I see people mocking these deaths, or worse.

I think there is a difference between viewing someone's death as justified, or disagreeing with their actions that led to their death. But I think once they are dead, that should be it. To celebrate it, just seems crude and unGodly.

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So no celebrating Christ's death?... ok boomer.

But as Paul so beautifully put it, 'where is thy sting, oh death?'

nortex97 said:

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But as Paul so beautifully put it, 'where is thy sting, oh death?'

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Praise the Lord!

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Not trying to be political, but as soon as I heard about this I figured it would be a perfect example of what I think is wrong with people today. Whether they die by violent means, a heart attack, cancer, or just fall asleep and never wake up, this kind of stuff just rubs me wrong.

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Agree. It is so antithetical to what Christ taught. Love your enemy. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

That is why I get angry when pastors say we will be applauding watching people going to ECT hell. That is not Biblical and actually is heresy.

nortex97 said:

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Far be it for me to endorse his faith or statement but I do think some grace to Trump is due and appropriate given the lengths the disgusting mueller went to to destroy/imprison and bankrupt Trump and his family on knowingly false charges using his notorious legal enemies and the resources of the state.

A personal grudge is unsurprising.

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So should Jesus have held a grudge against the folks who crucified Him?

Sapper Redux said:

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nortex97 said:

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Far be it for me to endorse his faith or statement but I do think some grace to Trump is due and appropriate given the lengths the disgusting mueller went to to destroy/imprison and bankrupt Trump and his family on knowingly false charges using his notorious legal enemies and the resources of the state.

A personal grudge is unsurprising.

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"Some grace due to Trump." There was nothing "false" about Mueller's investigation. The results are there for all to see. If anything, he was extremely deferential to Trump. By your logic, though, you never get to complain about any Republican figure whose death is mocked by Democratic politicians. Got to extend them some grace.

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I disagree totally with your take. But that should be on the politics forum in my opinion.

dermdoc said:

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nortex97 said:

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Far be it for me to endorse his faith or statement but I do think some grace to Trump is due and appropriate given the lengths the disgusting mueller went to to destroy/imprison and bankrupt Trump and his family on knowingly false charges using his notorious legal enemies and the resources of the state.

A personal grudge is unsurprising.

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So should Jesus have held a grudge against the folks who crucified Him?

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Jesus righteous anger would be 'not in my purview' to paraphrase "honest bob."

Lots of things going on in this post.

'Celebrating death' like your sports team just scored is clearly wrong. Same with the drone videos from the Ukraine war of both sides getting killed by drones set to metal music.

'Celebrating death' as a form of punishment for justice being served is also wrong but in a different manner. Can you celebrate a killer being given justice? Yes and no.

God gives man the authority to enact justice and revealed instructions on when you can and cant enact death as a form of justice. As well as what is permissible versus what is aspirational views on prison, restitution and capital punishment

God does not delight in the death of any man, and would rather see even the worst of us turn and repent. And God wants us to structure our society in the same way. Do not delight in death, seek to draw out repentance, and then enact justice when its due.

Celebrating vigilante justice is a blurry line as well. Can mobs kill innocent people? Of course? Can justice be enacted without the pomp, circumstance, and delay of a jury trial? Also yes. Because at the end of the day institutions have no moral character independent of the people running them. And small groups of people have administered justice, fairly, without the government's involvement since time immemorial.

I have done a lot of reading on Paul Washer since our discussion and agree with you. His actions, life, and character speak of a devoted follower of Christ. I still disagree with his statement I posted, but apologize if it appeared to besmirch his name.