Disclaimer, I'm a lapsed cradle Catholic who is pro life.

It's hypocritical to me that politicians like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden who advocate for, enable abortion, and as a result of their actions and influence, allow millions of abortions aren't excommunicated while a teenage mom who feels they have no other choice and has an abortion can be excommunicated. I've read canon law on direct vs indirect and this too is hypocritical as I personally see no difference.

I guess this is because 60% of Catholics, according to Pew Research that abortion should be legal. The church is a "business" so they can't alienate that many of their followers.

Happy to hear where my thinking on this is incorrect.

As a non-lapsed cradle Catholic I think you're on the target and would posit that most would likely agree. We have leaders who prefer to be strategically ambiguous when it comes to holding people in power to account and being clear on certain teachings. But the Church moves slowly in general and the post-modern tide is gathering strength. I suspect in 30-40 years we'll be much closer to where we want to be. In the meantime I am going to pray and have faith that Jesus was right about his Church standing the test of time. All I can do is be the "man in the arena" doing my part raising a family and witness to those I meet.

ETA - regarding abortion in general the Church doesn't equivocate, and it's not like the vast majority stay members because people like Pelosi are (it's rather the opposite IMO). The average Catholic knows the position even if they disagree - although I question who these 60% are as I haven't met nearly that many. It's just in holding the powerful to account that the issue comes - so it's political IMO. I disagree that Pelosi et al are indirect. They are not allowed to vote for pro-abortion law and remain as Catholics in good standing, and should be held to account. These are evil elements that need to be purged.

As a previously lapsed, now reverted cradle Catholic, I will tack on to what File said. Biden, Pelosi, et al hide behind the framing of the issue as a matter of choice, not a matter of abortion. It's not that "abortion is ok", but that a "person should be able to choose" how to handle the issue. They aren't saying the fetus isn't a person. They haven't even said abortion isn't murder. Neither has challenged the authority or accuracy of the Church's teaching on the subject (although Pelosi has flirted with it) They probably believe all those things, but they don't say it publicly. Their view that is should be a legal choice is wrong and the Church says they are wrong, and their position is sinful, but they stay grey enough to avoid something like an excommunication .

As to the teenage girl, something like excommunication only happens if she obstinately refuses to acknowledge what she did is a sin, managers to create a wide sweeping public platform and become well known enough that she led a large movement inside of Catholicism to challenge Church teachings on the matter. No teenage girl making a rash decision is getting excommunicated. She committed a grave sin and needs to repent of her sin ASAP and get to confession. Many of us have committed mortal sins before. Pray for anyone who has had an abortion to repent and trust that God is merciful to those that seek His mercy

I'd just like to know what a "lapsed cradle catholic" is.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'd just like to know what a "lapsed cradle catholic" is.

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Mostly, a cradle catholic.

It's a bit strange to look at these things from the outside. As mentioned above, you can have prominent, powerful Catholics being very outspoken that the unborn are not deserving of rights in clear contradiction to the teachings of the Church. However, nothing is done. OTOH, you see the Catholic Church excommunicate entire communities of Christians over things like using leavened bread during Passover. It's a bit bizarre

If I'm being a bit uncharitable towards the Catholic Church, there has historically always been a bit of a double standard between how they treat the truly powerful and how they treat everyone else. You can see it as far back as Constantine. More than any other branch of Christianity, the Catholic church has always had to be very practical and bend over backwards to keep the wealthy and powerful in the fold

As stated earlier, excommunication comes from obstinately and publicly disagreeing with the Catholic Church's stance on a theological matter. These particular politicians play in the grey area, where they don't disagree that it's a human life, but don't agree on how to prudentially and politically handle the issue. Catholic's can disagree on the prudential judgements of the Church and not risk excommunication. So as long as they say the Church is right to say it is a human life and human life is sacred, but prudentially we disagree on how to approach the issue, they can stay in that grey area. So what you see as bending to the powerful is more a fact that the powerful are smart enough to know where to draw the line. Biden has done a better job than Pelosi, but even she's hasn't fully crossed it. They are told that they are committing a grave sin they need to repent of, but that isn't obstinately teaching theological error.

No idea what you're talking about with the leavened bread thing. If that's a reference to the east/west schism, it would be incorrectly stated.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I admit this is a tough one, but it does seem odd that it would be defined as the killing of an innocent person but yet the killer needs compassion and mercy.

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He forgave the man who shot and attempted to kill him. That act of forgiveness eventually led to the man's conversion thus saving his soul. It does no good to condemn sinners as we too have been undeservingly forgiven. As such, it becomes our duty to forgive and perhaps in doing so, we can play a role in helping another find the path from sin to salvation.

We should want the absolute best for everyone always, even for those who have committed terrible evils such as abortion

The official position (and the overwhelmingly common held view among actual practicing Catholics) is that abortion is murder

As a Catholic, I understand what you're saying, but non-Catholics will have a very hard time understanding. Very simply, abortion is always the murder of an innocent human life.

Where I think your nuance is coming in is as it relates to the culpability of the mother killing her child. Some of the mothers will be in poor mental states, which of course can change their moral culpability. Sort of a similar argument for the mental and salvific state/culpability of someone that commits suicide. There are so many factors that can impact these evil decisions.

I know you know all of this, but I'm just trying to type this all out for others to read and try to understand.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/05/23/like-americans-overall-catholics-vary-in-their-abortion-views-with-regular-mass-attenders-most-opposed/

Here's the Pew Research Center data on the subject from 2022. The data looks at three categories of US Catholics: all US Catholics, Catholics that attend Mass at least once a week, and Catholics that attend mass less often.

You'll see that nearly 70% of Catholics that attend mass at least once a week believe that abortion should be illegal in most/all cases. On the other hand, 65% of Catholics that attend mass less believe it should be legal.

You'll also see that 83% of Catholics that attend mass at least once a week believe that this statement: "Human life begins at conception, so a fetus is a person with rights" describes their view well or very well. Among Catholics that attend less often, only 58% feel this way.

If there is a murder, wouldn't there always logically be a murder-er?

If I reluctantly kill my neighbor and tell him I really don't want to do this but I have no other choice, it's still a murder and I am guilty of murder.

PabloSerna said:

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Do you consider your neighbor a viable human person? That is closer to the question facing a crisis pregnancy. That is why there are limits on how far along a pregnancy can be terminated. It differs from state to state. Maybe you can rephrase your example?

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Image of God*

Must be gestating 120 days or older to participate, does not apply to anyone unable to live on their own without their family, subject to Pablo's personal determination, inclusive of the infirm, terminally ill, or generally unwanted or unknown if not acknowledged by their parents or under parental duress. No purchase necessary to apply. Not valid in Virginia, New York, California, Washington, or other Democrat states. See bible, errr missives and letters for details.

Unfortunately there are many Catholic brothers and sisters who will go on and on about the evils of abortion, and with none of the same fervor talk about the beauty of IVF and how lucky they are to have had a child as the result of the process. Ignoring the fact that hundreds, sometimes thousands of lives are often snuffed in the same process.