Podcast on the Shroud of Turin (Jeremiah Johnston on Shawn Ryan Show)

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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 8:08p, 4/8/26
AG
Aggrad08 said:
Ah yes you are so sophisticated, however could I have missed the exacting arguments you made that have nothing to do with this situation. How dare I trust historical records and substantiated science.


I'm not making arguments as there is almost nothing about the shroud that any one can confidently say. I don't have a firm opinion on it either way and there is contradicting facts on both sides that are hard to reconcile.

I never claimed to be sophisticated and intellectually superior to any one.

There are mysteries that are very hard to explain and some people dismiss them based on anecdotal evidence in other areas.

There is some science that casts doubts but doesn't adequately explain enough for most reasonable people to entirely dismiss it. In sure faith plays a role.

No one, especially a persons that is not in the sciences at all, should make such strong comments when there are plenty of scientists that don't agree with the findings.

Some fully accept it because they want it to be true.

You dismiss it because you are being hateful to others beliefs and you want to cause harm and show your supposed intellectual superiority to other people online.

You don't actually know anything and that says a lot about you. You read some stuff online…. That's all you are on this topic. Just a guy that read some stuff on the internet.

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Aggrad08
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 8:18p, 4/8/26
AG
This is all a pathetic ad hominem with no teeth. You've got no argument, then good. Accept that and go away. I understand radiometric dating pretty well and I've looked into various methods quite a bit over the years.

The arguments for and against the radiometric data are simply not equal and opposite. The claims are actually pretty fanciful when you look in detail, as you could see above if you really were curious.

This historical record could hardly be more damning if it was utterly contrived to be. The Catholic Church itself is the greatest evidence against it.

I said from the beginning this shouldn't affect beliefs in the resurrection one way or another. And funny enough it's the Christians on this thread who are the most hateful and insulting. Go through and read for ad hominems and it's all you and yours.

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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 8:29p, 4/8/26
AG
Aggrad08 said:
This is all a pathetic ad hominem with no teeth. You've got no argument, then good. Accept that and go away. I understand radiometric dating pretty well and I've looked into various methods quite a bit over the years.

The arguments for and against the radiometric data are simply not equal and opposite. The claims are actually pretty fanciful when you look in detail, as you could see above if you really were curious.

This historical record could hardly be more damning if it was utterly contrived to be. The Catholic Church itself is the greatest evidence against it.

I said from the beginning this shouldn't affect beliefs in the resurrection one way or another. And funny enough it's the Christians on this thread who are the most hateful and insulting. Go through and read for ad hominems and it's all you and yours.



Have a good night
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KingofHazor
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1:39p, 4/9/26
Questions for those who are skeptics of the shroud (and I'm probably one):

How was the sample that was C14 dated chosen? Who chose it? Who was present when it was selected and removed?

How much of the shroud had been repaired over the centuries? Lots? Just one small section? If lots, doesn't that possibly significantly raise the possibility that the portion that was tested was a repair, not the original? In archaeology, C14 testing can be really messed up by poor sample selection, and it happens a lot.

Are all of the C14 scientists who did the testing of the shroud still in accord?

Why do you think that a 3-dimensional person would leave that odd image? 3-dimensional people leave 2-dimensional images literally billions of times per day in photographs. And haven't many scientists who've studied the Shroud claimed that it is, in fact, a 3-dimensional image? Doesn't the weird image presuppose that the light left the body traveling in all sorts of directions, but if the light were to go straight up from the body, it would leave a correct, 2-dimensional image, correct?

Doesn't Sapper's link on the first page of this thread actually contradict his point that the blood was actually pigment? His link takes us to only the first page of the article, but even there that page states that the author was the only member of the scientific team that believed it was pigment; all the others concluded it was blood, or am I reading that wrong?

I'm intrigued but skeptical. My skepticism is more of a metaphysical or spiritual nature, rather than based on science. It's not based on science because the arguments that it's not real aren't very convincing. My metaphysical/spiritual skepticism is based on the fact that there are no other artifacts tied to Jesus that have survived. We don't even have a copy of any of the original Scriptures. I've been taught, and it makes some sense to me, that God prevented such items from surviving because we are to worship God and Christ only, not artifacts. If an original Scripture or an artifact tied directly to Christ had survived, many would inevitably end up worshiping those objects, not God or his Son.
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NoahAg
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2:18p, 4/9/26
How do skeptics address the blood? Type AB. Semitic blood. Accounts for only 6% of the world's blood type.

Still, no answer for the image itself. Like the poster above said, why would God imprint that goofy 2D image posted on page 1? That example assumes the image being created via skin to shroud contact. That's not what God did here. He literally left us a supernatural photograph. As Jeremiah Johnston says, the world's first selfie.

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Rocag
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In reply to NoahAg • 2:31p, 4/9/26
AG
Why should it matter that Type AB blood is only found in 6% of the population?
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 3:22p, 4/9/26
Aggrad08 said:

I said from the beginning this shouldn't affect beliefs in the resurrection one way or another. And funny enough it's the Christians on this thread who are the most hateful and insulting. Go through and read for ad hominems and it's all you and yours.


Is it?
Quote:

It's a perfect example of how bad Christians are at evaluating evidence


Says the guy who just insulted billions of people with the same broad brush.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 3:43p, 4/9/26
AG
Now do the same excercise the other way round…
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 4:31p, 4/9/26
Aggrad08 said:
Now do the same excercise the other way round…


My question for you is are you atheist? If so, why do you feel the need to try to persuade people to not believe in Jesus? Or to tear down things Christians might believe in?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to NoahAg • 6:49p, 4/9/26
NoahAg said:
How do skeptics address the blood? Type AB. Semitic blood. Accounts for only 6% of the world's blood type.

Still, no answer for the image itself. Like the poster above said, why would God imprint that goofy 2D image posted on page 1? That example assumes the image being created via skin to shroud contact. That's not what God did here. He literally left us a supernatural photograph. As Jeremiah Johnston says, the world's first selfie.



"Semitic blood"? Semitic is a language group. Also, the country with the highest percentage of AB blood in the world is South Korea. Is Jesus Korean? The photograph claim is idiotic. For that to be the case the shroud would have to be completely flat and levitating above and below Jesus. That makes no sense.
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Enviroag02
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 7:03p, 4/9/26
AG
Again…I don't know why you two can't grasp the concept that the process that left the image IS NOT and DOES NOT have to adhere to known scientific processes. It's God! How difficult is this to grasp? My goodness.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Enviroag02 • 7:50p, 4/9/26
Enviroag02 said:
Again…I don't know why you two can't grasp the concept that the process that left the image IS NOT and DOES NOT have to adhere to known scientific processes. It's God! How difficult is this to grasp? My goodness.

Then what's the point of having a faded image on a piece of linen? Why not have a giant neon sign over the burial spot saying "Vacancy"? Why not have a fully color image that never fades or changes? Whatever image is on there clearly responds to the passage of time and the modern laws of physics, so how are you claiming a metaphysical creation of a physical image? The only reason is because you can't actually explain the image in a way that validates what you want to believe.
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Enviroag02
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:06p, 4/9/26
AG
The act of resurrection (that means Jesus was brought back to life, just FYI) on the part of God using His divine power resulted in the transference of a negative image of Jesus' . There done!

Holy moly, I don't know what's so hard about this. I don't feel like I need to explain how it was done, because I can't possibly explain how God works. I might as well ask how He created the Earth from nothing.
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Heineken-Ashi
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:29p, 4/9/26
Sapper Redux said:
Enviroag02 said:
Again…I don't know why you two can't grasp the concept that the process that left the image IS NOT and DOES NOT have to adhere to known scientific processes. It's God! How difficult is this to grasp? My goodness.

Then what's the point of having a faded image on a piece of linen? Why not have a giant neon sign over the burial spot saying "Vacancy"? Why not have a fully color image that never fades or changes? Whatever image is on there clearly responds to the passage of time and the modern laws of physics, so how are you claiming a metaphysical creation of a physical image? The only reason is because you can't actually explain the image in a way that validates what you want to believe.

You thought Covid originated from a wet market and gladly wore your face diaper. Nothing you say or link to is believable.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to KingofHazor • 8:41p, 4/9/26
The c14 data is about as trustworthy as global warming temperature data, and the c14 science/data something Fauci would be proud of. All of it is incredibly flawed and compromised and the raw data was withheld and/or modified to get to their agenda-driven outcome. In this case they needed a major, bombshell headline that the shroud was a fake and they got the headline they wanted and the whole world read it loud and clear. Even still today the default conventional wisdom is that shroud was proven to be a forgery from the Middle Ages. Most people just accept the headline and don't give it much thought. The headline worked and the demons behind it prevented many people from coming to belief in Christ in the process.

Our non-Christian posters have given us a little taste of what the anti-Christian agenda and headlines were intended to do. Look at the amount of time and energy they have poured into this very thread and for what purpose? Imagine if the 1980's headline had been the reverse "Shroud of Turin defies all scientific explanation. It might be authentic."

The following article was published in March 2019 in Archaeometry some 40 years after the bombshell headlines "debunking" the shroud were originally published.
Quote:
In 1988, three laboratories performed a radiocarbon analysis of the Turin Shroud. The results, which were centralized by the British Museum and published in Nature in 1989, provided 'conclusive evidence' of the medieval origin of the artefact. However, the raw data were never released by the institutions. In 2017, in response to a legal request, all raw data kept by the British Museum were made accessible. A statistical analysis of the Nature article and the raw data strongly suggests that homogeneity is lacking in the data and that the procedure should be reconsidered.


The agreed upon plan of sample collection from several different areas of the shroud was abandoned and all samples were taken from the same area from the corner of an area that had been previously burned and repaired. After they declared the C14 data proved the shroud to be a fraud they refused to release the raw data to have their conclusion tested and verified. 40 years later a FOIA request finally forced them to release the data which was shown to be anything but "conclusive".

Christians are divided with most evangelicals skeptical of the shroud seeing it as another Catholic relic, and Catholics are pretty agnostic about it because our faith is not placed in the shroud, but in Jesus. Unfortunately, the narrative of the shroud being a fake has been seared into society at large and is the default position. I believe this was the devil at work, and still is today. People stand on the "science" to support their attacks on the shroud and focus their attention on long arms and the hairstyle or ethnicity of the man of the shroud avoiding the real issues.


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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Enviroag02 • 9:15p, 4/9/26
Enviroag02 said:
The act of resurrection (that means Jesus was brought back to life, just FYI) on the part of God using His divine power resulted in the transference of a negative image of Jesus' . There done!

Holy moly, I don't know what's so hard about this. I don't feel like I need to explain how it was done, because I can't possibly explain how God works. I might as well ask how He created the Earth from nothing.

Yeah, that makes zero sense given basic physics of a burial shroud, let alone the physical impossibility of the proportions of the man on the shroud.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Heineken-Ashi • 9:17p, 4/9/26
Heineken-Ashi said:
Sapper Redux said:
Enviroag02 said:
Again…I don't know why you two can't grasp the concept that the process that left the image IS NOT and DOES NOT have to adhere to known scientific processes. It's God! How difficult is this to grasp? My goodness.

Then what's the point of having a faded image on a piece of linen? Why not have a giant neon sign over the burial spot saying "Vacancy"? Why not have a fully color image that never fades or changes? Whatever image is on there clearly responds to the passage of time and the modern laws of physics, so how are you claiming a metaphysical creation of a physical image? The only reason is because you can't actually explain the image in a way that validates what you want to believe.

You thought Covid originated from a wet market and gladly wore your face diaper. Nothing you say or link to is believable.

Thanks for proving you are incapable of rational discourse on any topic.
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Enviroag02
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9:34p, 4/9/26
AG
I was also once of the world and consumed by the things of it like you. I was incapable of comprehending the power and scope of our God. I needed answers to why everything and anything happened. No more!
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 9:49p, 4/9/26
Sapper Redux said:
Enviroag02 said:
The act of resurrection (that means Jesus was brought back to life, just FYI) on the part of God using His divine power resulted in the transference of a negative image of Jesus' . There done!

Holy moly, I don't know what's so hard about this. I don't feel like I need to explain how it was done, because I can't possibly explain how God works. I might as well ask how He created the Earth from nothing.

Yeah, that makes zero sense given basic physics of a burial shroud, let alone the physical impossibility of the proportions of the man on the shroud.
That's the point. It makes zero sense. The shroud defies basic physics and scientists cannot explain how it was made using the latest and most sophisticated technologies available today. They cannot replicate it or recreate anything like it with similar characteristics. You can focus on proportionality and arm length all you want, but you are unable to explain how the image was made.
You are focused on the wrong question IMO
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JamiesChallengeCard
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:14p, 4/9/26
Sapper Redux said:
Heineken-Ashi said:
Sapper Redux said:
Enviroag02 said:
Again…I don't know why you two can't grasp the concept that the process that left the image IS NOT and DOES NOT have to adhere to known scientific processes. It's God! How difficult is this to grasp? My goodness.

Then what's the point of having a faded image on a piece of linen? Why not have a giant neon sign over the burial spot saying "Vacancy"? Why not have a fully color image that never fades or changes? Whatever image is on there clearly responds to the passage of time and the modern laws of physics, so how are you claiming a metaphysical creation of a physical image? The only reason is because you can't actually explain the image in a way that validates what you want to believe.

You thought Covid originated from a wet market and gladly wore your face diaper. Nothing you say or link to is believable.

Thanks for proving you are incapable of rational discourse on any topic.

Here's the thing for me if I understand this whole thing correctly.

But when they took that image and created the negative, so many details were revealed that they didn't even know for the 1900 years prior to that moment. Skeptics to the Shroud are therefore claiming the forgery created details that were unseen and unknown to the naked eye. I just don't but that.

To me it either is absolutely the linen from Christ's burial, or the artist was literally divinely inspired by God considering the level of detail that it would have taken.
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NoahAg
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In reply to Rocag • 8:37a, 4/10/26
Rocag said:
Why should it matter that Type AB blood is only found in 6% of the population?

You missed the point. If a forgery, where and how would a medieval forger obtain and apply all the HUMAN blood found on the shroud?
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KingofHazor
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In reply to NoahAg • 8:44a, 4/10/26
NoahAg said:
Rocag said:
Why should it matter that Type AB blood is only found in 6% of the population?

You missed the point. If a forgery, where and how would a medieval forger obtain and apply all the HUMAN blood found on the shroud?

I don't understand your point. Can you explain further? There would be lots and lots of possible sources of human blood for a medieval forger, wouldn't there?
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Rocag
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In reply to NoahAg • 8:52a, 4/10/26
AG
I don't think obtaining human blood is quite the challenge you seem to think it is.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Rocag • 9:37a, 4/10/26
Rocag said:
I don't think obtaining human blood is quite the challenge you seem to think it is.

Except the human blood on the majority of the shroud was extremely high in bilirubin which is why the blood has kept its color. This happens in very rare circumstances where the person is undergoing extreme torture and stress. The body essentially runs out of blood and uses secretions high in bilirubin as a last resort. A forger of the shroud would have needed to know this fact and be able to cause this to happen in their victim.

Also, the blood on the shroud around the wound from the spear in Jesus' side was a different quality and kind of blood than the stains on the rest of his body. The blood stains on his head, arms, legs, back, etc was from blood/billirubin from a living person. The blood around the spear was post-Mortem meaning the blood coming from only this wound was from an injury caused after death. How would a forger have know to do all of this?? Would the fraudster have had the foresight to know we might be able to test all of these particulars in the future?

Couple all of this with the image being formed after the blood stains were there, the superficial image is only 1-2/200 fibrils deep with no pigment and no brush strokes and contains 3D information, and the image is a reverse negative image that would not be known by man or accessible for hundreds and hundreds (or thousands) of years in the future….and we are supposed to believe someone figured all of this out and created this "forgery" in the Middle Ages?

Why are his arms long? I don't know. But before I concern myself with those questions I need to be shown how and why everything else was possible.
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Rocag
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 10:51a, 4/10/26
AG
I get that you believe all of that but in every case I can point you to numerous studies that directly contradict just about all of your points which would make the conclusions invalid. Here is a link to one that references and summarizes such studies:

The aggrandizement of scientific data in the media: The Shroud of Turin blood marks as a case example

From that, we have good reason to doubt that concentrations of bilirubin make any significant difference in blood color to begin with. Actual testing hasn't shown that to be the case. The blood hasn't been proven to be AB type or even from a human being to begin with. Perhaps with more testing that could be established but that just brings us back to the fact that very little actual direct testing on the shroud has been done in the first place.

I think the argument you're making about the negative image here is a good example of the flaw in your reasoning. The true point being made is that details of the image on the shroud are more easily visible when viewed as a negative. There's no reason to think that it would be necessary for the person who created it to have planned for that or even been aware of it in the first case. It's easily demonstrated that there are plenty of ways to create images with this effect, one of which could have been used in this case. Garlaschelli did it using a method plausibly available to someone in the 1300's. But why does the negative effect matter in the first place? Why do we assign significance to it? There is no prior reason it had to be that way. We only say it matters now because that's the way it is. If it had been different it wouldn't have mattered.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Rocag • 11:27a, 4/10/26
If only the hasty publication of the c14 data in the 80's had been so carefully and thoroughly questioned as the link you posted reviewing the blood analysis, huh? Instead they suppressed the raw data for 40 years and only released it when compelled by legal action.

Essentially the link you posted implies "it could very well be human …but as new technology emerges it appears there might be a remote possibility that the blood could be from a different type of animal as well so let's not get too far out over our skis".

The 3D negative image remains unaddressed…and again the amazing skills of this middle-ages fraudster are something otherworldly! He nailed it on every single front. Amazing.
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Faithful Ag
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6:17a, 4/14/26
Where did the atheists and shroud skeptics go?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:16a, 4/14/26
Faithful Ag said:
Where did the atheists and shroud skeptics go?

We're still here. It gets tiring seeing the same debunked arguments trotted out as if it's fact. You do know that your claim about the blood being from torture comes from a retracted and debunked study, right? Same scholars are the ones trying to claim that WAXS can show the Shroud is 2000 years old.* There's no good evidence to debunk the carbon dating and multiple lines of historical and archaeological evidence support dating the Shroud around the 14th century. But now it's just talking in circles because you won't accept this argument. You're dug in on the Shroud.

*if you maintain constant levels of low temperature and stable humidity over 2000 years
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Rocag
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:21a, 4/14/26
AG
Well I don't think this thread changed anyone's mind either way. You have your objections which I fully believe have satisfactory answers but you clearly disagree on that. In my mind the key point is that I simply don't think supporters of the shroud's authenticity have been able to show that the carbon dating results were incorrect. I'd like to see another round of testing to verify, but I doubt the results will change.
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Aggrad08
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9:28a, 4/14/26
AG
The next credible argument against the radiometric dating will be the first.

I already posted a paper debunking the repair theory. So what else you got?

And not one believer in the shroud has even attempted to address this historical record which just by super coincidence exactly matches the carbon dating.
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Faithful Ag
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2:39p, 4/14/26
Sudarium of Oviedo
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 6:18p, 4/14/26
We moving to an older relic now? The 9th century is closer to Jesus than the 14th but it still isn't the 1st.
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Thaddeus73
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6:22p, 4/14/26
AG
The blood type on the Shroud is AB, a universal recipient. AB in Hebrew means Ab, or Father. What better blood type for Jesus to be a universal recipient of man's blood and to mean "Father."
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Rocag
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 6:44p, 4/14/26
AG
And if it were O you'd be telling us of the spiritual significance of it being the universal donor. Actually wouldn't donor rather than recipient make the more thematic sense here? Is Jesus presented as more giving or receiving?

In any event the blood hasn't even been confirmed to be from a human, let alone type AB.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 7:02p, 4/14/26
Thaddeus73 said:
The blood type on the Shroud is AB, a universal recipient. AB in Hebrew means Ab, or Father. What better blood type for Jesus to be a universal recipient of man's blood and to mean "Father."

Father in Hebrew is aleph bet aleph, or "aba" in transliteration. The formal is aleph vav, or Av. So unless your claim is that the Hebrew of God is intended to be rendedered in English characters and went by "fath" instead of "father," your argument falls apart.
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