If you're not doing things that please God there is a chance you were never born again, breaking the chain of bondage to sin and allowing you to do good works.

How much not doing the things that please God is sufficient for doubt?

Even one sin?

No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him.

Do you always do the things that please God?

Zobel said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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If you are truly saved you will want to do the things that please the Lord. If you are looking for the bare minimum, you likely never were saved.

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So schroedinger's assurance

But further. If you're saved why does it matter if you do or don't do the things that please God? You're saved. End of discussion.

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I believe that once you are truly saved, you are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and do not want to sin. I do not think if you are truly born again that you think well, I am saved so I can do whatever I want to. Once saved, always saved doesn't work like that.
You are truly changed, a new creature. When my office manager rich family friend stole money from me, I was truly shocked anyone could do that. Then I realized because I had the Holy Spirit and was born again, I thought differently than she did. Not of my doing, but the doing of the Spirit. Sin is a horrible thing.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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If you are truly saved you will want to do the things that please the Lord. If you are looking for the bare minimum, you likely never were saved.

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So schroedinger's assurance

But further. If you're saved why does it matter if you do or don't do the things that please God? You're saved. End of discussion.

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I believe that once you are truly saved, you are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and do not want to sin. I do not think if you are truly born again that you think well, I am saved so I can do whatever I want to. Once saved, always saved doesn't work like that.
You are truly changed, a new creature. When my office manager rich family friend stole money from me, I was truly shocked anyone could do that. Then I realized because I had the Holy Spirit and was born again, I thought differently than she did. Not of my doing, but the doing of the Spirit. Sin is a horrible thing.

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We get the example, but are left with the same problem: how much sin can you commit if you're born again? None? Just a little? Can you be saved and commit adultery (or does that mean you were never saved)? What about porn addiction? Can you struggle with drinking? Social media addiction? Anger with your children?

The flaw in this theology runs deeper than, "you'll be transformed." We're not promised perfection, nor do the epistles shy away from repentance and ending sinful habits if you're a Christian.

You know what's funny? I looked up several articles on why Catholics should go to mass and every heading was entirely applicable to a Protestant.

I won't speak for everyone else (though I won't lie and say I don't have my impressions) but I'm not spending my life trying to get into heaven; I'm spending my life seeking to become more holy and in deeper relationship with our Lord.

Aside from the fact that the Lord commands us to be in communion with one another, commands us to worship Him, I WANT to go to church.

When your desires go beyond salvation, your actions, priorities, and treasures change.

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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If you are truly saved you will want to do the things that please the Lord. If you are looking for the bare minimum, you likely never were saved.

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So schroedinger's assurance

But further. If you're saved why does it matter if you do or don't do the things that please God? You're saved. End of discussion.

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I believe that once you are truly saved, you are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and do not want to sin. I do not think if you are truly born again that you think well, I am saved so I can do whatever I want to. Once saved, always saved doesn't work like that.
You are truly changed, a new creature. When my office manager rich family friend stole money from me, I was truly shocked anyone could do that. Then I realized because I had the Holy Spirit and was born again, I thought differently than she did. Not of my doing, but the doing of the Spirit. Sin is a horrible thing.

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We get the example, but are left with the same problem: how much sin can you commit if you're born again? None? Just a little? Can you be saved and commit adultery (or does that mean you were never saved)? What about porn addiction? Can you struggle with drinking? Social media addiction? Anger with your children?

The flaw in this theology runs deeper than, "you'll be transformed." We're not promised perfection, nor do the epistles shy away from repentance and ending sinful habits if you're a Christian.

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I don't think like that as I do not want to do any of those things although I do like a glass or two of wine. Sounds like you are talking about a works based salvation which is wrong in my opinion. Fruits come about naturally due to you being born again. I could turn your points about sin around to works. What works and how many do I have to do? What kind of works? Who defines them? In my opinion it is usually people.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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You know what's funny? I looked up several articles on why Catholics should go to mass and every heading was entirely applicable to a Protestant.

I won't speak for everyone else (though I won't lie and say I don't have my impressions) but I'm not spending my life trying to get into heaven; I'm spending my life seeking to become more holy and in deeper relationship with our Lord.

Aside from the fact that the Lord commands us to be in communion with one another, commands us to worship Him, I WANT to go to church.

When your desires go beyond salvation, your actions, priorities, and treasures change.

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Agree completely. That is what sanctification is. I could not have shalom and joy without assurance that I will be with the Lord forever. Makes life so much easier.

And that is also the reason I keep working at almost 71. This is what God made me for. I feel I glorify him with my ministry and practice. I love it.

Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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I do not believe once saved always saved.

Frok said:

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Quote:

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We get the example, but are left with the same problem: how much sin can you commit if you're born again? None? Just a little? Can you be saved and commit adultery (or does that mean you were never saved)? What about porn addiction? Can you struggle with drinking? Social media addiction? Anger with your children?

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ALL sin is covered by the blood on the cross, so if you did all of that, you are still saved.

I think what we need to understand is that none of us are good--the only thing that saves us is Jesus

True repentance and love of God should enact change in your life as you begin to desire God and the things He desires. But you will still sin, and it will be frustrating. As Paul said, I do the very things I hate.

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Agree. That to me is why assurance of salvation is so important to being able to produce fruit.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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I do not believe once saved always saved.

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We will have it all explained to us when we are in the presence of the Lord for eternity. And at that point, it will not matter. I am looking forward to it.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Zobel said:

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If you believe in once saved always saved, after you're saved, why does it matter if you go to church or not?

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I do not believe once saved always saved.

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I am curious how you would view the Good Shepherd and sheep imagery in the Bible that is used ad nauseum. If the Lord is in fact a GOOD shepherd, what kind of shepherd is He that would allow his sheep to leave his sheepfold?

John 10:7-16
So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

To be fair
Hebrews 6 4-6 and Hebrews 10 26-29 are two that seem to speak against eternal security. And there are others. I agree with you on the subject.

We are not the ones who decide who is saved and who is not. I trust the Lord.

1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

You didn't answer me earlier though. Does that mean one sin means you were never saved?

What about ten?

Zobel said:

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How much not doing the things that please God is sufficient for doubt?

Even one sin?

No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him.

Do you always do the things that please God?

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Of course we do not always do the things that please God. Paul speaks to this struggle between flesh and sprit.

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Romans 7:14-25
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Matthew Henry on Romans 7:
It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1 Jn. 1:8, 10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal. 5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions.

The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were.

Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Phil. 3:12. Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside.

As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1 Jn. 3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it? For the flesh serveth the law of sin (v. 25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen. 6:3, Jn. 3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good.

The remainders of indwelling sin are a very grievous burden to a gracious soul.

one MEEN Ag said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

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So we agree then, once saved always saved is bunk. Its always been about your actions.

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No.

one MEEN Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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We are not the ones who decide who is saved and who is not. I trust the Lord.

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Right, even the orthodox, with the liturgical and sacramental rigor currently being discussed, don't opine on who is saved or not as you are correct that is the Lord's decision. Regardless of piety, if you are old enough to go to confession (the age of reason), a funeral liturgy is chock full of the Lord to have mercy on the departed. We are bound to the Lord, the Lord isn't bound to us.

But the church is established to be the conduit for theosis. It is the hospital for those suffering from the sicknesses of sin. So there is a necessity here for attending, participating, obeying, and doing what the church asks for us to grow in theosis.

We try not get caught up on the edge cases of saints like the Thief on the Cross or St. Mary of Egypt. If you find yourself dying next to the Lord, or the angels teaching you the psalms and the gospels in the desert - go for it. For the rest of us, its not supposed to be just me and my bible.

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I agree even though I am not Orthodox. Maybe it is just me but it seems like a lot of this thread is posters trying to figure out who is a "real" Christian and who is not. Only God knows the heart, I have dealt with some mean ass professing Christian's and some non believers who acted like saints. I know we have discernment which is good. But it seems to easily morph into judgement by men.

10andBOUNCE said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

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So we agree then, once saved always saved is bunk. Its always been about your actions.

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No.

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But its right there in your quoted scripture. Keep the commandments or you're not a Christian. Jesus said so.
Works based righteousness, not once saved always saved. Remember, if you've read your OT closely, 'keep the commandments' does not mean go on and be perfect. The commandments are full of liturgical practices to offer forgiveness of sins. Keeping the commandments means if you have sinned you follow through on what actions are required of you to remediate that sin. Which once again, points to works as what separates believers from nonbelievers.

And here's solo scriptura on display. My interpretation is in line with the how the church has always operated. (And if its not, be it that I do adopt an interpretation that does.) Yours is a deviation. You can't follow your interpretation as continuous from the church fathers, through the liturgical practices, through the schisms, into your own parish.

How is the imagery of the Good Shepherd I posted taught by the Fathers? How can you be a GOOD shepherd if you let sheep freely leave the fold?

one MEEN Ag said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

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So we agree then, once saved always saved is bunk. Its always been about your actions.

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It has always been about Christ's actions and nothing else. His blood. His grace.. His keeping us until the end.

No, what I actually said is that something in him actually decided to ask the question, and for me, folks that are investigating their faith and actions tend to be headed down a good road. A good sign the Spirit is at work is for people to be asking questions of other believers. But yes, if you have zero desire to be around God's people, I said that you likely will not like heaven.

It isn't about sinning a little or a lot. All it takes is one sin to deserve judgement from a holy God. So we all therefore need the blood to wash us clean. And one way to have a sense of confidence about our standing with God is if we truly are desiring the things of God. Desiring to go to church and be with God's people is just one of many examples and is hardly definitive.

The sinning is not evidence of being out of a state of grace, but a Spirit that does not care and is not penitent would be evidence of being out of a state of grace. There should be a general trajectory in our lives as well that shows sanctification and a desire to grow in our holiness. It is about the heart, not the outside.

I genuinely don't see how this comports with once saved always saved. If you're saved, you're saved. The end. Evidence is irrelevant, whatever happens after is irrelevant.

Let me ask you simply, once you are saved, who is it that performs the good works thereafter?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Let me ask you simply, once you are saved, who is it that performs the good works thereafter?

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The person does. Why is the important distinction. It's because they are prompted by the Spirit and cooperate with Him.

If the person isn't involved in some way, then we are all video game characters that God is controlling, including every single time He could choose to make us to do to the good work and leaves us to do the bad thing.

God will certainly use the works of unsaved man for his glory, but there is nothing good (righteous) about charitable acts of unbelievers.

Psalm 127:1
Unless the Lord builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.

So is it you or the Spirit working in you?