TeddyAg0422 said:
Like many things that aren't absolutely and so incredibly clearly laid out in the Bible, it can be implied (the Trinity just for one).
There are plenty of examples that can be used, but I think one strong is looking at Hebrews 12:1. It discusses the cloud of witnesses. What are they witnessing? Obviously, actions occurring on the earth. Revelation 5:8 is an obvious one too. 2 Maccabees 15: 14-16 is also obvious, but you certainly won't accept that example.
Edit: I take you're clearly a Protestant, so yes, it's going to be a lot harder for your like to be accepting of these things if they don't make perfect sense in your head. Traditional Christians aren't going to be bound to what your bound to, so it's going to be easier for an educated Catholic to talk to an uneducated Catholic about this than it would be for an educated Catholic to talk to an educated/uneducated Protestant about it
It's always good to show the text so we can see the actual context when a claim is made.
Hebrews 12: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."
Revelations 5:6-13"
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.""
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
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Neither of these supports the idea of saints praying for us.
In Hebrews, we get zero indication that the saints are active participants, but "witnesses." But as we know they are not omnipresent, which means they in fact cannot be in a scenario where they are simultaneously hearing prayers all over the world, yet also in a singular place as this would claim.
It also shows the problem with forcing ideas onto the text. Nobody would read this and come to a claim to prayer to saints or the saints praying for us. We should rightly read this as being about Jesus.
In Revelation, you're attempting to merge the actions in verses 11-12 with 6-10. They are seperate.
Yes, there are prayers being guarded or held by the four creatures and "24 elders", but that is shown to be completely separate from the actions attributed to the creatures in heaven and earth. This group is ONLY praying a corporate prayer. Which any Protestant will have no problem agreeing with. The saints in heaven pray for the church in a general manner. We do this every week when we pray for our leaders. But this is materially different than what you are trying to claim.
