Bearing Good Fruit

2,631 Views | 40 Replies | Last: 4 days ago by Howdy, it is me!
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

In a very Ian Malcolm type of voice...

We are the branches...Jesus in the vine where the branches get their life from...God the father is the vinedresser...

How is it that the actual branches initiate anything in their spiritual life, other than an overflow from the vine and the work of the vinedresser?

Signed,
A confused Calvinist



Because we aren't actual branches. Neither are we actual trees, actual sheep, etc.

That said, the vast majority of non-Calvinists faith don't believe we "initiate" anything. It's God's grace doing the initiating. The question is whether we are cooperating or not
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

In a very Ian Malcolm type of voice...

We are the branches...Jesus is the vine where the branches get their life from...God the father is the vinedresser...

How is it that the actual branches initiate anything in their spiritual life, other than an overflow from the vine and the work of the vinedresser?

Signed,
A confused Calvinist




Don't Calvinists believe that one can not refuse to be grafted in to the vine? Unconditional election and irresistible grace?

A confused non Calvinist
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10andBOUNCE
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AG
The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

In a very Ian Malcolm type of voice...

We are the branches...Jesus in the vine where the branches get their life from...God the father is the vinedresser...

How is it that the actual branches initiate anything in their spiritual life, other than an overflow from the vine and the work of the vinedresser?

Signed,
A confused Calvinist



Because we aren't actual branches. Neither are we actual trees, actual sheep, etc.

That said, the vast majority of non-Calvinists faith don't believe we "initiate" anything. It's God's grace doing the initiating. The question is whether we are cooperating or not

So we are not actually any of those things, yet we DO eat the actual flesh. Sounds like cherry picking.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Augustine's Tractate 81 (John 15:1-3) is a good read.

Grabbed a summary from AI that seems to work nicely...

1. Christ the "true vine" why "true"?
Augustine says Christ calls Himself the true vine to distinguish Himself from merely symbolic or imperfect "vines" (like Israel in the Old Testament).
  • Christ is the source of real, eternal life
  • Believers are branches only by being united to Him
He emphasizes that Christ can be the vine because of His humanityHe shares our nature so we can share His life.

2. The Father as vinedresser
Augustine highlights the active role of God the Father:
  • The Father tends, cultivates, and governs the vine
  • He removes unfruitful branches and prunes fruitful ones
This shows that growth in the Christian life is not self-directedit is God's ongoing work.

3. Two kinds of branches "in Christ"
This is one of Augustine's most important insights in the tractate.
He distinguishes:
(a) Those truly abiding in Christ
  • They bear fruit
  • They persevere
  • They share in Christ's life inwardly
(b) Those only outwardly "in" Christ
  • They may appear connected (profession, association)
  • But they lack real life and fruit
  • They are eventually cut off
His key idea: Some are in Christ in appearance, others in reality

4. Pruning = purification
Augustine interprets pruning as God's sanctifying work:
  • Trials, discipline, and correction cleanse believers
  • This is not punishment but preparation for greater fruitfulness
So suffering, rightly understood, is evidence of being cared fornot abandoned.

5. "Already clean because of the word"
On verse 3, Augustine explains:
  • The disciples are "clean" because of Christ's word
  • This refers to spiritual cleansing, not physical
  • The word works inwardly, producing faith and purification
He ties this closely to gracecleansing comes from Christ's initiative, not human effort.

6. Absolute dependence on Christ
Though more developed in later tractates, Augustine already stresses here:
  • Branches do not produce life on their own
  • All fruit comes from remaining in Christ
Even being "clean" is something received, not achieved.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

In a very Ian Malcolm type of voice...

We are the branches...Jesus in the vine where the branches get their life from...God the father is the vinedresser...

How is it that the actual branches initiate anything in their spiritual life, other than an overflow from the vine and the work of the vinedresser?

Signed,
A confused Calvinist



Because we aren't actual branches. Neither are we actual trees, actual sheep, etc.

That said, the vast majority of non-Calvinists faith don't believe we "initiate" anything. It's God's grace doing the initiating. The question is whether we are cooperating or not

So we are not actually any of those things, yet we DO eat the actual flesh. Sounds like cherry picking.

Fun right? Normally it goes the other way around, where all of the bible has to be literal except for that part.

In this particular instance, John 15: 6 says whoever doesn't abide is thrown away "like" a branch. Jesus does not use "like" language in John 6, which is why many of His followers left.

Also, He uses 'if" language throughout the 15:1-11. "If" they abide in Him. "If" they keep His commandments. Do we have any instances of a branch choosing whether or not it sticks with the vine?
Howdy, it is me!
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AG
The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

In a very Ian Malcolm type of voice...

We are the branches...Jesus in the vine where the branches get their life from...God the father is the vinedresser...

How is it that the actual branches initiate anything in their spiritual life, other than an overflow from the vine and the work of the vinedresser?

Signed,
A confused Calvinist



Because we aren't actual branches. Neither are we actual trees, actual sheep, etc.

That said, the vast majority of non-Calvinists faith don't believe we "initiate" anything. It's God's grace doing the initiating. The question is whether we are cooperating or not

So we are not actually any of those things, yet we DO eat the actual flesh. Sounds like cherry picking.

Fun right? Normally it goes the other way around, where all of the bible has to be literal except for that part.



Ooh, this could tie in nicely to the dispensationalist (premillennialism) post!
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