dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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And say Matthew 25 46 is correct and there is eternal punishment. According to Matthew 25, who goes there? And who goes to reward? Who does Jesus say are the sheep and goats? And why are they them according to Scripture?

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I would say that's always been interpreted as the Sheep being the "believers" and the Goats being those that refuse to accept Christ? Your thoughts on that?

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Never says that. There is no mention of belief, faith, baptism, etc. Nothing about refusing to accept Christ. And what is interesting is it talks about nations. Not individuals. Which makes sense when you look at God's covenant with Israel.
the sheep are sheep because they did good towards the poor, the prisoners, etc. The goats are goats because they did not do those things. Very similar theme as the rich man and Lazarus parable.

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Verse 32 says He will gather the nations and separate THE PEOPLE one from another as a shepherd would the sheep and the goats. The good works (Sheep) are not the reason for their salvation, but the fruits they display are the results of their salvation.

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Where does it say that? I am just reading the Scripture without addition.

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This is the AI answer…I'm no where near as smart as AI…although I've heard it preached this way my whole life.

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I had it preached to me like that my whole life also. Then I started reading for myself, Don't trust me or any man, Read it for yourself. And fwiw, I am not a huge AI guy.

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Myself included….although I tend to think it would take in the majority of interpretations…here is another return from a similar question however…

Does it say all that in the Scripture when you read it? Honestly?

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

Fair point on the Calvinists.

So by your answer it seems that you also subscribe to a sort of pre-resurrection annihilationism?

dermdoc said:

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Does it say that in the Scripture when you read it? Honestly?

---

It mentions specifically in verse 32 that people will be separated…not nations..do you believe salvation is through works or that you are saved by faith and there will be works as a result? (I yield my own interpretations to those who have been in the seminary and interpreted it that way to me)…..I do know that it says the goats will go away to eternal punishment.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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I wholeheartedly believe that Universalism is a false doctrine…there is no need for Christ to suffer on the cross and shed His blood for our sins IF God intended for all to get to Heaven anyway after temporal punishment. You repeatedly speak of the verse saying "God desires that all men be saved"….of course he does…He also gave us free will to make a choice. He also gave us Ten Commandments that He wants us to obey, but all will break some of them. Where is the verses that say "God WILL save all men?" Where are the verses that say we will receive a temporary punishment and be saved anyway in the end? Did Jesus preach temporary punishment and then ultimate reconciliation for those that don't turn to him? Did I miss that somewhere? I believe that Universalism undermines the entire Gospel…even Hebrews 2:3 states "how can we escape if we reject such a great salvation, which at the first was spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us that was heard by him"….what were they trying to escape with salvation? Eternal death or temporary punishment? To me, the Bible is clear on the consequences of sin and a life without accepting Christ…

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The only Scripture you posted that describes eternal punishment is Matthew 25:46. And the translation of that is hotly debated. The other Scriptures you posted say nothing about eternal punishment. Being thrown in the lake of fire could suggest many things including destruction, temporal punishment, or purification. There is not a word about the eternal aspect of what it means to be thrown into the lake of fire. Please show me where it clearly states anything in that verse talks about eternal anything. You are using eisegesis.

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Matthew: whatever "eternal" means, it applies to both punishment and life.

John: no, it does not specifically say anything about eternal punishment, but one can deduce that if they don't believe and therefore don't have eternal life…they have something else.

Thessalonians: this describes eternal destruction…I think calling that a punishment is fair.

Revelation: the lake of fire is the second death (20:14). The lake of fire is described as a place of eternal torment (20:10). Also see: Matthew 25:41, Romans 6:23

I still don't think you've answered "saved from what?" Jesus saves us from temporal punishment? No way.

God loves us, but nothing is about us. It's all about His glory.

---

We are saved from death. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020%3A10&version=NIV
And here is Revelation 20:10. From my reading there are only three entities that suffer forever.

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

I wholeheartedly believe that Universalism is a false doctrine…there is no need for Christ to suffer on the cross and shed His blood for our sins IF God intended for all to get to Heaven anyway after temporal punishment. You repeatedly speak of the verse saying "God desires that all men be saved"….of course he does…He also gave us free will to make a choice. He also gave us Ten Commandments that He wants us to obey, but all will break some of them. Where is the verses that say "God WILL save all men?" Where are the verses that say we will receive a temporary punishment and be saved anyway in the end? Did Jesus preach temporary punishment and then ultimate reconciliation for those that don't turn to him? Did I miss that somewhere? I believe that Universalism undermines the entire Gospel…even Hebrews 2:3 states "how can we escape if we reject such a great salvation, which at the first was spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us that was heard by him"….what were they trying to escape with salvation? Eternal death or temporary punishment? To me, the Bible is clear on the consequences of sin and a life without accepting Christ…

---

The only Scripture you posted that describes eternal punishment is Matthew 25:46. And the translation of that is hotly debated. The other Scriptures you posted say nothing about eternal punishment. Being thrown in the lake of fire could suggest many things including destruction, temporal punishment, or purification. There is not a word about the eternal aspect of what it means to be thrown into the lake of fire. Please show me where it clearly states anything in that verse talks about eternal anything. You are using eisegesis.

---

Matthew: whatever "eternal" means, it applies to both punishment and life.

John: no, it does not specifically say anything about eternal punishment, but one can deduce that if they don't believe and therefore don't have eternal life…they have something else.

Thessalonians: this describes eternal destruction…I think calling that a punishment is fair.

Revelation: the lake of fire is the second death (20:14). The lake of fire is described as a place of eternal torment (20:10). Also see: Matthew 25:41, Romans 6:23

I still don't think you've answered "saved from what?" Jesus saves us from temporal punishment? No way.

God loves us, but nothing is about us. It's all about His glory.

---

We are saved from death. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020%3A10&version=NIV
And here is Revelation 20:10. From my reading there are only three entities that suffer forever.

---

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

I am going to bed. Blessings on all.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

Even if I don't agree with your concept of hell, I truly admire your heartfelt desire that all would be saved. I think one issue I see with it is that authentic love must be freely given. God wants us to love him but that must be freely given.

---

Very valid point. And I vacillate between CS Lewis's concept of "hell" (God honors free will and allows people to choose separation from God) and ultimate reconciliation. So maybe I am a hopeful ultimate reconciliation guy and not a firm one.

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

Even if I don't agree with your concept of hell, I truly admire your heartfelt desire that all would be saved. I think one issue I see with it is that authentic love must be freely given. God wants us to love him but that must be freely given.

---

Very valid point. And I vacillate between CS Lewis's concept of "hell" (God honors free will and allows people to choose separation from God) and ultimate reconciliation. So maybe I am a hopeful ultimate reconciliation guy and not a firm one.

---

Harrumph!

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

May I ask the multiple places that say the words eternal punishment? From my studies, the only Scripture that uses the term eternal punishment is Matthew 25:46. And there is a lot of controversy over the translation of that verse. If I am wrong, please correct me.
Shalom

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Mark 9:42-48
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Luke 16:22-26
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also sufferingsince indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

10andBOUNCE said:

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Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Mark 9:42-48
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Luke 16:22-26
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also sufferingsince indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

---

None of those speak of eternal punishment. Do you want me to address the one by one? If desired I am happy to. I think we have discussed all these before so I don't want to be repetitive.
The closest is your last one but the same words were used in Scripture about Sodom and Gomorrah and obviously that did not happen.
We disagree on hell theology. Which is fine. Shalom my friend.
And actually Revelation 20:15 is the closest beside Matthew 25 46 to advocate ECT hell.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Can I ask for multiple places where Scripture says that God's wrath is temporary and corrective only?

---

Define God's wrath. In the OT that meant death, not hell. Is it different in the NT?

And I like you too much to continue this banal discussion. Neither of us will change our minds. Going to watch Georgia beat the sips,

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

---

It literally says the destruction is a punishment…

I answered by giving you scripture, a quote from Sproul that I agree with, and explaining why I think the punishment is eternal.

I think hell is just for those who end up there. I don't want that but if it comes to it, it's not wrong.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

---

It literally says the destruction is a punishment…

I answered by giving you scripture, a quote from Sproul that I agree with, and explaining why I think the punishment is eternal.

I think hell is just for those who end up there. I don't want that but if it comes to it, it's not wrong.

---

Got it. And destruction is punishment. How can destruction be eternal punishment? I mean if you are destroyed that is obviously all she wrote. But that is different than ongoing eternal torture. And Sproul is not Scripture.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can I ask for multiple places where Scripture says that God's wrath is temporary and corrective only?

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Define God's wrath. In the OT that meant death, not hell. Is it different in the NT?

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Spiritual death is what's being discussed. The wages of sin is death - spiritual death. You don't experience spiritual death in heaven, but you do in hell. It's the second death spoken of in Revelation.

I think 10 had a great question; I'd be curious to read the verses that support temporal punishment.

The disconnect is that you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. And there is no Scriptural proof of that.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

---

It literally says the destruction is a punishment…

I answered by giving you scripture, a quote from Sproul that I agree with, and explaining why I think the punishment is eternal.

I think hell is just for those who end up there. I don't want that but if it comes to it, it's not wrong.

---

Got it. And destruction is punishment. How can destruction be eternal punishment? I mean if you are destroyed that is obviously all she wrote. But that is different than ongoing eternal torture. And Sproul is not Scripture.

---

It says eternal destruction. Forever being destroyed. Via God's wrath.

I know Sproul is not scripture. I don't understand this comment.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

---

It literally says the destruction is a punishment…

I answered by giving you scripture, a quote from Sproul that I agree with, and explaining why I think the punishment is eternal.

I think hell is just for those who end up there. I don't want that but if it comes to it, it's not wrong.

---

Got it. And destruction is punishment. How can destruction be eternal punishment? I mean if you are destroyed that is obviously all she wrote. But that is different than ongoing eternal torture. And Sproul is not Scripture.

---

It says eternal destruction. Forever being destroyed. Via God's wrath.

I know Sproul is not scripture. I don't understand this comment.

---

So it is not ECT hell? It is destruction, correct? And not ongoing conscious torment?

dermdoc said:

---

The disconnect is that you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. And there is no Scriptural proof of that.

---

I think Jesus came to save us from God's eternal wrath. He came to reconcile us to God so we can worship Him forever in Heaven.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

He also saves us from being slaves to sin.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Derm,

I am curious how you respond to the criticism that if universalism is true, then why did Jesus need to suffer his Passion and death?

---

Because that was required to save us from the wages of sin which is death.

I know you are not a Calvinist but you might ask them the same thing since according the elect are predestined before creation,

---

What do you think is "death"? Temporal punishment?

---

Yes for some. Believers will not suffer temporal punishment.

---

So, Jesus saves us from temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is the lake of fire but it's only eternal for the devil, beast, and false prophet. It's temporal for unbelievers. Is this accurate to your belief?

---

It is interesting to me that in 20:10 it clearly states the devil, beast, and false prophet will be punished forever. It does not say that in 20:15 about those not found in the Book of Life. I frankly do not know but believe the lake of fire will be a refining event for the unbelievers not found in the Book of Life. I personally hope that there will be few or none whose names are not written in the Book of Life. God desires to save all men. He is merciful, just, and slow to anger. I put my faith and trust in Him. I understand if you don't agree with me.
May I ask what your concept of hell is?

---

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Sproul said it pretty well: "Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief."

Since the word for eternal/everlasting used to describe the punishment (in multiple places) is also used to describe life, I have to believe they are of the same duration.

---

The Scripture you posted says everlasting destruction, not punishment.
RC Sproul (RIP) is by far my favorite Reformed theologian. I do not agree with his hell theology. I ask again, What is your hell theology?

And edited to add, don't know about you but if ECT hell exists, I do not want to watch people eternally suffer. Another reason I am not Reformed. Seems to be a recurrent theme.

---

It literally says the destruction is a punishment…

I answered by giving you scripture, a quote from Sproul that I agree with, and explaining why I think the punishment is eternal.

I think hell is just for those who end up there. I don't want that but if it comes to it, it's not wrong.

---

Got it. And destruction is punishment. How can destruction be eternal punishment? I mean if you are destroyed that is obviously all she wrote. But that is different than ongoing eternal torture. And Sproul is not Scripture.

---

It says eternal destruction. Forever being destroyed. Via God's wrath.

I know Sproul is not scripture. I don't understand this comment.

---

So it is not ECT hell? It is destruction, correct? And not ongoing conscious torment?

---

Being destroyed by God's wrath would be tormenting and I do believe they are conscious to it.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The disconnect is that you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. And there is no Scriptural proof of that.

---

I think Jesus came to save us from God's eternal wrath. He came to reconcile us to God so we can worship Him forever in Heaven.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

He also saves us from being slaves to sin.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

---

Agree. But "heaven" Scripturally is going to be the New Jerusalem on the new earth. God is coming down to us. Praise the Lord!

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The disconnect is that you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. And there is no Scriptural proof of that.

---

I think Jesus came to save us from God's eternal wrath. He came to reconcile us to God so we can worship Him forever in Heaven.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

He also saves us from being slaves to sin.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

---

Agree. But "heaven" Scripturally is going to be the New Jerusalem on the new earth.

---

I agree.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The disconnect is that you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. And there is no Scriptural proof of that.

---

I think Jesus came to save us from God's eternal wrath. He came to reconcile us to God so we can worship Him forever in Heaven.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

He also saves us from being slaves to sin.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

---

Agree. But "heaven" Scripturally is going to be the New Jerusalem on the new earth.

---

I agree.

---

The problem is that we have totally different concepts of atonement and soteriology. You believe in penal substituionay and I believe in Christus Victor. Because of this you believe the main reason Jesus came was to save us from ECT hell. I think the Gospel is about being born again, loving God, loving neighbors, and following Jesus in this life. We are both children of the most high God.
And that is fine with me. Blessings.

dermdoc said:

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And I like you too much to continue this banal discussion. Neither of us will change our minds. Going to watch Georgia beat the sips,

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Please let this happen…this we can absolutely agree on!