Lol they were doing flyovers to honor the hero doctors and nurses that were killing people with vents and denying treatment to ppl that had a lick of sense and didn't get the jab.
The medical field is erasing its own COVID-era history
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Last: 1 day ago by coolerguy12
People were posting their vax cards on social media like it was a badge of honor
FrioAg 00 said:
You talk about how difficult it is to admit you were wrong to someone who was right only for ideological reasons.
In response to a question about why so many physicians/scientists were reluctant to change their turn on various topics.
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But there was, without doubt, NO group in the country who was led less by science and more by political ideology than the physicians and medical institutions.
I mean, you can think that if you want. And certainly there are blind ideologues in medicine just as there are anywhere else. But if you are going to sit here and tell me the average American who protested any given aspect of the pandemic, it's existence or the response did so on the basis of a deep dive into the scientific rationale, well then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Basic, elementary type scientific knowledge was not just ignored - but it was zealously fought against by the supposed "scientists".
This is just completely untrue. Nobody had ANY knowledge of this virus when it first hit the western hemisphere, because the only place we had data from flagrantly lied about literally everything. And the fact that covid, particularly the initial strain, diverged WILDLY in pathogenicity and transmissibility from the most comparable prior viruses we have experience with. And NONE of that preexisting knowledge was "elementary level" anyway. Claiming such a thing is just Dunning-Kruger in its most flagrant form.
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What they did to children (who were almost completely unaffected) and education
As I've said before, this was the most flagrant miscalculation throughout the whole pandemic. But even then, there ARE conceivable scenarios where such a thing would be warranted and the reliable data on morbidity/mortality in children wasn't available until about 6 weeks after it hit the west hard. The data used to claim sooner timeframes by some came from China, where they vastly UNDERSTATED how bad it was for adults and I particular the elderly. We had no reason to ever believe that data and the people touting it wouldn't trust China on literally ANYTHING else.
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the lunacy of unsealed surgical masks and cloth face coverings
Such masks have a significant impact on the transmission of many respiratory viruses, particularly in healthcare settings, just not covid. But anyone claiming they had scientific basis for that in the Spring of 2020 is just lying. Full stop. Particularly since even some other coronaviruses are significantly impeded by such measures.
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the pushing of vaccines that had no chance of keeping up with a rapidly evolving respiratory virus
The evolution of the covid variants, particularly the manner in which they mutated, was both unique and on a rate/scale virology is just not very familiar with. And again, probably the most ignored scientifically indisputable fact on this board is that the vaccines in their first year of use demonstrably decreased the rates of severe disease and death in adults over the age of 50 and the benefit was greater the older you were. With respect to the active strain at the time the vaccine was rolled out, it took the mortality of an 85 year old with 2+ chronic medical conditions down to that of a healthy young adult in their 30s.
Did the claims of decreased transmission turn out to be largely incorrect? Yes. Did the benefits decrease with time and mutations? Absolutely. Was there ever a good reason to vaccinate 12 year olds? No (and if you check I was clearly stating this from the start when these were rolled out). Was the adverse event rate understated in certain populations, particularly in very young men? Yes. But the vaccines saved A LOT of your parents and grandparents in that first 6-12 months. Maybe even some of you. The absolute bottoming out of deaths we saw in the hospital was stunning. The volume of data documenting this is overwhelming at this point.
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there were honestly so many mistakes pushed that were obvious mistakes made in the name of liberal groupthink
Most of the mistakes were initially not mistakes, they were unknowns, and only later once it was clear they were mistakes are many of these individuals liable. Now there certainly are many, and I'll readily admit there were things I believed that turned out to not be backed by the results, but ultimately there is a clear distinction between the ideologies who held to incorrect ideas far too long and everyone else who was learning as we went. And now in 2023 yes, there is a segment of the population dug in because of "liberal group think". But the same phenomenon exists on the right too, as we can see here. This board refuses to accept some things are we just stone cold facts at this point, because some of the stuff they were told was indeed untrue.
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And you see no arrogance in these statements?
I don't think it's arrogant at all for one to say they like what they do regardless of public or private sentiment. And I certainly don't apologize for harboring a small bit of animosity towards people who had the luxury of being detached from it all lecturing me on how this should have been handled. I watched whole families die in the same ICU from an illness that never should have existed in the first place, all while doing everything in my power to try and prevent it from happening again. Yes, I'm a little bitter about that. I've largely come to terms with it but if you want honesty and not the professional line that's it.
I know many of you think we just sat back and laughed while enjoying the spotlight, or whatever you want to call it. But it was a miserable experience and one that would have kept me from going into medicine had I known what was coming. You don't get used to people dying like that, not the way it happened with this. It was a terrible thing and something you should be grateful you were lucky enough to not experience the devastating effects of (assuming you and your family didn't, if so then my condolences).
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
This is an example of how we got where we were at.Quote:
And I certainly don't apologize for harboring a small bit of animosity towards people who had the luxury of being detached from it all lecturing me on how this should have been handled.
Perfect example.
digging tunnels said:
Is remdesivir even being prescribed anymore at hospitals? I surely hope not
Not really, it has an incredibly narrow window of even potential efficacy and the data within that window was never strong. Several large trials later showed no benefit beyond, at most, a slightly shorter hospitalization. When factoring in the totality of data there really isn't any good evidence it reduced mortality.
My comment was with respect to the belief by some that it killed a bunch of people, which is demonstrably untrue. The risk of nephrotoxicity and hepatoxicity is WILDLY overstated on this board and lower than many very common antibiotics.
For example, if you've ever taken Augmentin you were at much greater risk of liver failure than you would be from remdesivir. Bactrim and vancomycin carry much higher risks of kidney failure. These are medicines that altogether probably two thirds of this board has gotten at some point in their life minimum. Hell daily ibuprofen use above 400-800 mg for any meaningful length of time is much more dangerous statistically.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Stat Monitor Repairman said:This is an example of how we got where we were at.Quote:
And I certainly don't apologize for harboring a small bit of animosity towards people who had the luxury of being detached from it all lecturing me on how this should have been handled.
Perfect example.
I don't have a problem being shown I was wrong with data, even by someone who never was involved in caring for these patients.
What I have no tolerance for is people who don't even know how to assess data beyond what media article tells them, and who never put themselves in any position of risk or role to help these patients in any capacity, lecturing me on how I'm a terrible human because OAN told them "ventilators killed millions of people". That is who I'm speaking to, the blind who never had a stake in this and were always going to only believe one thing.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Who care if some "contrarian" papers were retracted? Policies and public decisions were not made on those papers, they did no damage.Infection_Ag11 said:
It should be noted that nearly two-thirds of the retracted papers in question reached a conclusion that those touting this as evidence of some grand conspiracy theory would have agreed with. For example, six of the papers were published or funded by the FLCCC and consisted mostly of just made up numbers.
For as shoddy as some of the published data regarding covid dangers are/were, the fact remains that statistically the sizable majority of overtly fraudulent papers were and still are published by contrarians pushing a narrative every bit as hard form the other side. Which is especially notable given this is a relatively small minority of papers published on the topic overall.
snowdog90 said:FrioAg 00 said:
You talk about how difficult it is to admit you were wrong to someone who was right only for ideological reasons.
But there was, without doubt, NO group in the country who was led less by science and more by political ideology than the physicians and medical institutions.
Basic, elementary type scientific knowledge was not just ignored - but it was zealously fought against by the supposed "scientists".
What they did to children (who were almost completely unaffected) and education, the lunacy of unsealed surgical masks and cloth face coverings, the pushing of vaccines that had no chance of keeping up with a rapidly evolving respiratory virus,… there were honestly so many mistakes pushed that were obvious mistakes made in the name of liberal groupthink.
This is such an awesome post. And let's not forget, F16 was all over this. This forum was touting MANY doctors who were preaching against the machinations of Fauci and his "science" minions. We were called crazy, anti-science, anti-vax, horse-dewormers - all because we were listening to incredibly accomplished doctors like Pierre Kory and Peter McCullough.
So much information was there and ignored by most of the medical community, so there's no ****ing excuse. The right thing could have been done by all doctors. Most chose the path of least resistance and millions died. Wishing it didn't happen doesn't change a ****ing thing.
But see, this is why it's impossible to converse with you. I'm willing to admit multiple things were done incorrectly in hindsight, objectively so, but you still speak as if so much of that information didn't come from grifters and sites that only exist to implant malware on your computer. This board has been littered for years with claims from doctors, dentists, naturopaths, chiropractors, etc. who are varying degrees of unlicensed, under investigation and in some cases even in jail for things from fraud to rape. People who had their licenses revoked long before covid, people who have been pushing harmful nonsense for decades, etc.
Pierre Kory has become FABULOUSLY wealthy over all this. He charges $2k to give people what amounts to IV vitamin infuses and scripts for generic meds you can get for $4 from Walmart with a virtual visit. He has made millions between this and speaking engagements, despite having numerous publications pulled even from "friendly" journals for outright lying and fabricating data. He published a study on ivermectin in which some of the patients literally only existed on paper. Does that automatically make everything he says wrong? No, but it certainly calls into question anything he puts forward.
Peter McCullough is probably the most reputable "covid contrarian" out there, at least in terms of people who diverge as wildly from the mainstream as he does. I actually know Peter through his previous employment at Baylor Scott and White, he's a perfectly fine human and a nice guy. He is a very good cardiologist. But much of what he has put forth the last couple years is just wrong, objectively so. Where he does deserve credit is that he was one of the earliest voices to detect the risk of myocarditis in young men, both from covid and from the mRNA vaccines. The data has since really backed him up on this topic and for that he deserves credit. It's also no surprise that data came from his area of expertise (cardiology).
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
So just using the first few huge examples:
We agree it was patently obvious from the beginning children's immune sustained had zero issues beating the virus with no significant risks - yet education was cancelled, socialization was eliminated and the medical community pushed unnecessary vaccines on them. Ok. I think that's a really big damn deal.
We completely disagree on masks. Hospitals have from 12 to 20 different types of N95 masks on hand for infectious disease units, and I think you know that. They are also required to "fit test" every clinical personnel that works in those areas annually, to know which as effective for their faces. They also have to train annually on things like dawning and doffing correctly. I consider that knowledge very basic in the medical science world - and the fact that we know that means we also always knew the cloth masks and surgical masks (most often worn below the damn chin) were worthless, yet the medical community insisted we continue for 2 ridiculous years.
We knew the virus traveled on water vapors - and the masks policies were the equivalent of using chain link fences to stop mosquitos.
We also disagree that Covid-19 mutated any differently or quicker than almost every other crown shaped respiratory virus - which is why they were ALWAYS a bad fit for vaccines at all. Honestly the mRNA technology doesn't keep up with viral mutations any differently than dead or attenuated vaccines do, so there was no reason to believe these vaccines would be any more impactful than the ones developed for similar viruses over 50 years, none of which are viable.
In other professions, when an industry royally screws the pooch - we usually show the humility of going back and establishing new mechanisms and controls to make sure it doesn't happen again. Aerospace had the Challenger. Accounting has Enron.
I just don't see that with the doctors. Instead I see a lot of sanctimonious whining about why people no longer listen to them.
We agree it was patently obvious from the beginning children's immune sustained had zero issues beating the virus with no significant risks - yet education was cancelled, socialization was eliminated and the medical community pushed unnecessary vaccines on them. Ok. I think that's a really big damn deal.
We completely disagree on masks. Hospitals have from 12 to 20 different types of N95 masks on hand for infectious disease units, and I think you know that. They are also required to "fit test" every clinical personnel that works in those areas annually, to know which as effective for their faces. They also have to train annually on things like dawning and doffing correctly. I consider that knowledge very basic in the medical science world - and the fact that we know that means we also always knew the cloth masks and surgical masks (most often worn below the damn chin) were worthless, yet the medical community insisted we continue for 2 ridiculous years.
We knew the virus traveled on water vapors - and the masks policies were the equivalent of using chain link fences to stop mosquitos.
We also disagree that Covid-19 mutated any differently or quicker than almost every other crown shaped respiratory virus - which is why they were ALWAYS a bad fit for vaccines at all. Honestly the mRNA technology doesn't keep up with viral mutations any differently than dead or attenuated vaccines do, so there was no reason to believe these vaccines would be any more impactful than the ones developed for similar viruses over 50 years, none of which are viable.
In other professions, when an industry royally screws the pooch - we usually show the humility of going back and establishing new mechanisms and controls to make sure it doesn't happen again. Aerospace had the Challenger. Accounting has Enron.
I just don't see that with the doctors. Instead I see a lot of sanctimonious whining about why people no longer listen to them.
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We agree it was patently obvious from the beginning children's immune sustained had zero issues beating the virus with no significant risks - yet education was cancelled, socialization was eliminated and the medical community pushed unnecessary vaccines on them. Ok. I think that's a really big damn deal.
Sure, I agree. All I'm saying is that those ascribing malevolence to this, at least initially, mistake it for a combination of public health incompetence and incomplete information. Only later when some continued to push for this did it become a truly malevolent issue of control. That doesn't make the end result better, but it's needed context.
And for the record, my stance against school closer from the start was for the same reason I was for masking initially. Because prior experience with similar viruses gave us a blueprint, with regards to school closures it was that it probably wouldn't help and kids would likely be at extremely low risk. In the case of schools out prior experience panned out, with masks it didn't. And that's how it goes with a novel pandemic. But I don't fault the people who recognized the unique properties of COVID and initially feared it would be unique with respect to the pathology in children.
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We completely disagree on masks. Hospitals have from 12 to 20 different types of N95 masks on hand for infectious disease units, and I think you know that. They are also required to "fit test" every clinical personnel that works in those areas annually, to know which as effective for their faces. They also have to train annually on things like dawning and doffing correctly. I consider that knowledge very basic in the medical science world - and the fact that we know that means we also always knew the cloth masks and surgical masks (most often worn below the damn chin) were worthless, yet the medical community insisted we continue for 2 ridiculous years
We don't do the full donning/doffing of PPE for most respiratory viruses, it's just droplet precautions. Basic surgical masks, sometimes contact precautions too depending on the virus in question. But surgical masks have shown a clear ability to reduce transmission of things like RSV and the flu. Regular surgical mask use in pediatric hospitals drops hospital acquired RSV rates something like 70% even at the height of the season. And community spread of many viruses plummeted at the height of community masking, even when isolation measures were minimal. It's just that covid is both so much more contagious than most respiratory viruses (especially now) and so much more resilient to environmental degradation in the short term that they're effectively useless in that setting.
And also, if you take a closer look, you'll see many helathcare facilities dropped even inpatient mask mandates well over a year ago. Many clinics haven't required it for nearly 2 years. I haven't worn a mask outside of a hospital since early 2021. The medical enforcement of this hasn't been as widespread as you might think for quite some time.
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We also disagree that Covid-19 mutated any differently or quicker than almost every other crown shaped respiratory virus
SARS-CoV2 mutates about 1.5-2x as fast as many similar RNA viruses including some other coronaviruses. But more meaningful is HOW it mutates. It has high rates of gain of virulence mutations in genetic regions that don't code for any of its primary virulence mechanisms (most notably the spike protein). It appears there are much higher than normal rates of epigentic phenomenon that impart improved transmissibility at much faster rates than other similar viruses.
Also the aggressive societal/medical response creates selective evolutionary pressure to mutate faster, which long term isn't a bad thing because it drives it to a more contagious but less virulent form more quickly. In the short term in led to the rapid waning of vaccine efficacy that we saw however.
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In other professions, when an industry royally screws the pooch - we usually show the humility of going back and establishing new mechanisms and controls to make sure it doesn't happen again. Aerospace had the Challenger. Accounting has Enron.
You're understating the predictability of these fields relative to virology/infectious diseases. Or more specifically, the predictability of certain areas within those fields open to failure or exploitation. Once something like the Challenger explosion happens and you figure out why, you can essentially guarantee it never will again. The next time a viral pandemic comes around, we could do everything a certain way based on what we've learned and be even more deadass wrong in many ways.
And perhaps that's the biggest disconnect between many inside and outside of medicine, at least among those with genuine interest in arriving at truth: There is a fundamental misunderstanding outside of this sphere about how unpredictable something like this is.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Infection_Ag11 said:Stat Monitor Repairman said:This is an example of how we got where we were at.Quote:
And I certainly don't apologize for harboring a small bit of animosity towards people who had the luxury of being detached from it all lecturing me on how this should have been handled.
Perfect example.
I don't have a problem being shown I was wrong with data, even by someone who never was involved in caring for these patients.
What I have no tolerance for is people who don't even know how to assess data beyond what media article tells them, and who never put themselves in any position of risk or role to help these patients in any capacity, lecturing me on how I'm a terrible human because OAN told them "ventilators killed millions of people". That is who I'm speaking to, the blind who never had a stake in this and were always going to only believe one thing.
You're probably talking about me and that's fine. I'm not a medical professional, but I would have better served covid patients than you. Not because of OAN, but because of doctors who were literally screaming the solution as loud as they could, just to be ignored by doctors like you.
Dr. Kory and Dr.McCulluogh testified in front of Congress about the successful treatments for Covid in 2020. You want to guess how many Democrats even showed up for their testimony? ZERO!! The idealogues on the left didn't want to hear possible solutions, they had an agenda other than saving lives, and you and Fauci and the majority of medical professionals fell right in line with all of it.
No, I'm not a doctor, but I was here every day parroting those solutions given by Kory and McCullough and you fought me tooth and nail on all of it. And now you say "we just didn't know and we wish it could've been different... we wish we could change it".
You and so many like you could have. You just didn't listen. And you're still not listening
Here's just 2 links about ventilators and Remdesivir.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7907730/#:~:text=Our%20findings%2C%20based%20on%20postmarketing,with%20findings%20from%20another%20group.
Our findings, based on postmarketing real-life data from >5000 COVID-19 patients, support that kidney disorders, almost exclusively AKI, represent a serious, early, and potentially fatal adverse drug reaction of remdesivir. These results are consistent with findings from another group.4 Physicians should be aware of this potential risk and perform close kidney monitoring when prescribing remdesivir.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/most-covid-19-deaths-may-be-the-result-of-a-completely-different-infection/amp
new analysis suggests that a high percentage of people who required help from a ventilator due to a COVID-19 infection also developed secondary bacterial pneumonia. This pneumonia was responsible for a higher mortality rate than the COVID-19 infection.
So while COVID-19 may have put these patients in the hospital, it was actually an infection brought on by the use of a mechanical ventilator that was more likely to be the cause of death when this infection didn't respond to treatment.
For the record, I will tell my covid story again.
I started taking ivermectin in mid-2020 to prevent covid. By November or so, I still hadn't gotten it and thought I was out of the woods and stopped taking it.
In January of 2022, I finally got covid and felt horrible, as sick as I've been in many years. I immediately took ivermectin and acetaminophen. In 12 hours, I was 90% better. Back to work in 5 days.
My story is VERY common, and yet I still talk to people who have never heard of ivermectin. It's a disgrace and a huge tumor on the body of the medical profession.
So if we had abandoned almost all efforts to make vaccines for similar viruses for decades because they mutate too efficiently and effectively for a vaccine rollout to be effective - why on Earth would we think vaccination had a chance to be effective here?
At best it was another Hail Mary to make people feel hope was on the way. At worst it was the worst financial conflict of interest in human history.
It sure as hell wasn't science.
At best it was another Hail Mary to make people feel hope was on the way. At worst it was the worst financial conflict of interest in human history.
It sure as hell wasn't science.
snowdog90 said:Infection_Ag11 said:Stat Monitor Repairman said:This is an example of how we got where we were at.Quote:
And I certainly don't apologize for harboring a small bit of animosity towards people who had the luxury of being detached from it all lecturing me on how this should have been handled.
Perfect example.
I don't have a problem being shown I was wrong with data, even by someone who never was involved in caring for these patients.
What I have no tolerance for is people who don't even know how to assess data beyond what media article tells them, and who never put themselves in any position of risk or role to help these patients in any capacity, lecturing me on how I'm a terrible human because OAN told them "ventilators killed millions of people". That is who I'm speaking to, the blind who never had a stake in this and were always going to only believe one thing.
You're probably talking about me and that's fine. I'm not a medical professional, but I would have better served covid patients than you. Not because of OAN, but because of doctors who were literally screaming the solution as loud as they could, just to be ignored by doctors like you.
Dr. Kory and Dr.McCulluogh testified in front of Congress about the successful treatments for Covid in 2020. You want to guess how many Democrats even showed up for their testimony? ZERO!! The idealogues on the left didn't want to hear possible solutions, they had an agenda other than saving lives, and you and Fauci and the majority of medical professionals fell right in line with all of it.
No, I'm not a doctor, but I was here every day parroting those solutions given by Kory and McCullough and you fought me tooth and nail on all of it. And now you say "we just didn't know and we wish it could've been different... we wish we could change it".
You and so many like you could have. You just didn't listen. And you're still not listening
Here's just 2 links about ventilators and Remdesivir.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7907730/#:~:text=Our%20findings%2C%20based%20on%20postmarketing,with%20findings%20from%20another%20group.
Our findings, based on postmarketing real-life data from >5000 COVID-19 patients, support that kidney disorders, almost exclusively AKI, represent a serious, early, and potentially fatal adverse drug reaction of remdesivir. These results are consistent with findings from another group.4 Physicians should be aware of this potential risk and perform close kidney monitoring when prescribing remdesivir.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/most-covid-19-deaths-may-be-the-result-of-a-completely-different-infection/amp
new analysis suggests that a high percentage of people who required help from a ventilator due to a COVID-19 infection also developed secondary bacterial pneumonia. This pneumonia was responsible for a higher mortality rate than the COVID-19 infection.
So while COVID-19 may have put these patients in the hospital, it was actually an infection brought on by the use of a mechanical ventilator that was more likely to be the cause of death when this infection didn't respond to treatment.
For the record, I will tell my covid story again.
I started taking ivermectin in mid-2020 to prevent covid. By November or so, I still hadn't gotten it and thought I was out of the woods and stopped taking it.
In January of 2022, I finally got covid and felt horrible, as sick as I've been in many years. I immediately took ivermectin and acetaminophen. In 12 hours, I was 90% better. Back to work in 5 days.
My story is VERY common, and yet I still talk to people who have never heard of ivermectin. It's a disgrace and a huge tumor on the body of the medical profession.
Again, not to rehash the exact same debate on these two that has been had 50 times here, but one of the guys you're touting is a complete fraud, a well documented liar and someone getting filthy rich rich off grifting and exploiting ignorance. The other seems far more well intentioned, but the volume of data contradicting much of what he says is just overwhelming.
With respect to ivermectin, all I can say is after three years and literally hundreds of studies that people are going to believe what they want about that at this point. I'll say I'm glad you felt better quickly and never had to deal with the most severe manifestations of the disease, and wish you well.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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So if we had abandoned almost all efforts to make vaccines for similar viruses for decades because they mutate too efficiently and effectively for a vaccine rollout to be effective - why on Earth would we think vaccination had a chance to be effective here?
I mean, they WERE effective. They were also sold as something they weren't, in many cases by well intentioned individuals. But as a means of decreasing morbidity/mortality for the highest risk groups they very much did that.
Now, I will say I had some fairly intense debates with colleagues in public health early on that we need to prepare for the reality that this probably wouldn't stop transmission. That was a very hopeful idea that wasn't rooted in our prior knowledge of coronaviruses. That was not something that should have been touted to the public. The claim always should have been this will make it much less likely that you die or end up in the hospital if you're at significant risk and left at that until we had more long term data. But again this is a not uncommon disconnect between clinicians and non-practicing physicians in the public administrative sphere. The fallout for them is largely just PR, the fallout for the rest of us is patient outcomes, trust, etc. Anthony Fauci, who is really just a figurehead for that sphere of medicine, doesn't really have to think about what he's going to say to the patient that took the vaccine and still got covid. He's thinking about how do I get as many people to take this as possible because it's the best thing we have right now.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yeah. Small minded people, some of whom I know very well, would tell everyone "I just got my first shot on April 3rd and get my next one on such and such date." I would ask do they post when they put ointment on a hemorrhoid. Time and time again I was told they were going to trust their doctor and I'd say why, they don't know much more about it than you do, and you don't know much at all. And that they were "going to trust the experts" and I'd say like Dr. Fauci? And that I bet you don't know much about his past. Or that he worships Hillary Clinton. And that is who you are going to trust?BudFox7 said:
People were posting their vax cards on social media like it was a badge of honor
Then I'd ask if they were worried about the "vaccines" being rushed out in record time, in so short a time that they did not do long-term testing. Time will tell just what the long term effects are, pretty good number of guinea pigs in the test group.
All I needed to know was that it wasn't adequately tested, yet hey came up with lies about it being safe and effective and that the mask crap was indicative of the level of stupidity of those telling people what to do, and those two things alone were why I wasn't going to get the shot. I finally got covid about a month ago, didn't bother seeing a doctor, and Ivermectin knocked it right out.
Before the narrative shift:
coronaviruses mutate
mRNAs hope was to take the novel edge off.
Everyone was going to catch at least one variant.
Surgical & cloth masks are simply cough catches.
Church it up all you want - those were established from the get go.
By the time vaccines hit the street it was known that young healthy folks were effectively at zero risk and the mainstream medical community overstated of risk to a heavily dishonest degree in order to elicit their desired behaviors.
Your goaltending for known medical community failures is just helping to exacerbate my ballooning distrust in docs.
coronaviruses mutate
mRNAs hope was to take the novel edge off.
Everyone was going to catch at least one variant.
Surgical & cloth masks are simply cough catches.
Church it up all you want - those were established from the get go.
By the time vaccines hit the street it was known that young healthy folks were effectively at zero risk and the mainstream medical community overstated of risk to a heavily dishonest degree in order to elicit their desired behaviors.
Your goaltending for known medical community failures is just helping to exacerbate my ballooning distrust in docs.
you knew the whole narrative pushed by the medical community, media , and government was a fraud because........
It was obvious to anybody with a functioning brain from the beginning. TexAgs should do away with the bs little medical professional icon while we're at it and nuke that ridiculous other forum where nothing could be questioned and nearly every person with a red + was wrong about everything. Although it does still serve a purpose for searching who should never be trusted for the rest of time.Captain Pablo said:
BTW I called this bullsh** from the beginning. Search my posts from the Spring of 2020 if you want
And it had nothing to do with "bubba" luck, although I'll take it
Anybody with common sense could see this was ridiculous overreach, junk science, panic, and outright tyranny from the outset
I truly believe, and will never be convinced otherwise, that this was a bunch of nerds seizing their time in the limelight. Big words and willing accomplices in government, the media, and everywhere else they could find someone to listen, thrust on the weak and gullible
Congrats. Y'all won. Y'all wrecked a civilization.
I guess the rest of us will sweep up the mess
Infection_Ag11 said:Quote:
So if we had abandoned almost all efforts to make vaccines for similar viruses for decades because they mutate too efficiently and effectively for a vaccine rollout to be effective - why on Earth would we think vaccination had a chance to be effective here?
I mean, they WERE effective. They were also sold as something they weren't, in many cases by well intentioned individuals. But as a means of decreasing morbidity/mortality for the highest risk groups they very much did that.
The vaccines were only effective at producing an antibody response. That's not the same a producing a protective effect. In fact a senior Pfizer official admitted that their mRNA vaccine was never tested for efficacy instopping transmission or infection. There is voluminous evidence that the mRNA vaccines produced a pathogenic priming effect that made the vacinated more susceptibleto COVID infction.
Preventing infection is what a vaccine is supposed to do according to the pre-2020 definition of a vaccine. The vaccines also failed to save any lives by reducing symptoms. They were of zero benefit to society. Stimulating antibody production != effective prevention or treatment.
In the end, vaccines were only really effective as a tool for generating revenue for pharma and royalties for FDA, NIH/NIAID scientests that hold patents for molecules they developed while collecting a federal paycheck and then voted to approve as members of FDA clinical review boards.
I think it would be better if they keep the medical tag and add a Teacher tag. Medical professionals and Teachers were the two most righteous and vindictive groups during the scamdemic. Flight Attendants might fit that bill too.johnnyblaze36 said:It was obvious to anybody with a functioning brain from the beginning. TexAgs should do away with the bs little medical professional icon while we're at it and nuke that ridiculous other forum where nothing could be questioned and nearly every person with a red + was wrong about everything. Although it does still serve a purpose for searching who should never be trusted for the rest of time.Captain Pablo said:
BTW I called this bullsh** from the beginning. Search my posts from the Spring of 2020 if you want
And it had nothing to do with "bubba" luck, although I'll take it
Anybody with common sense could see this was ridiculous overreach, junk science, panic, and outright tyranny from the outset
I truly believe, and will never be convinced otherwise, that this was a bunch of nerds seizing their time in the limelight. Big words and willing accomplices in government, the media, and everywhere else they could find someone to listen, thrust on the weak and gullible
Congrats. Y'all won. Y'all wrecked a civilization.
I guess the rest of us will sweep up the mess
One early concern was that the coronaviruses that caused colds would generally only give immunity for a year or so and that any covid vaccine might easily have that short a period for it to give immunity, wasn't it?Infection_Ag11 said:
Now, I will say I had some fairly intense debates with colleagues in public health early on that we need to prepare for the reality that this probably wouldn't stop transmission.
When they released the covid vaccines and talked them being good for life, I was rather surprised.
You would think there would be a year end record of all submitted articles that have been withdrawn. Certainly there is a record of what was submitted.
Certainly there is TexAg poster that has an association with publishing medical journals could tell us how to go find such information.
Honestly it calls for an TexAg research group to be formed to vette stories like this out. The government freely lies now with just no remorse for spewing false stories and propaganda.
Certainly there is TexAg poster that has an association with publishing medical journals could tell us how to go find such information.
Honestly it calls for an TexAg research group to be formed to vette stories like this out. The government freely lies now with just no remorse for spewing false stories and propaganda.
Coronavirus mutation was a publicly discussed certainty in the early mRNA talk. Those espousing "but for mutation we did the right thing!" are not serious people & shouldn't be treated as such.eric76 said:One early concern was that the coronaviruses that caused colds would generally only give immunity for a year or so and that any covid vaccine might easily have that short a period for it to give immunity, wasn't it?Infection_Ag11 said:
Now, I will say I had some fairly intense debates with colleagues in public health early on that we need to prepare for the reality that this probably wouldn't stop transmission.
When they released the covid vaccines and talked them being good for life, I was rather surprised.
Infection_Ag11 said:
It should be noted that nearly two-thirds of the retracted papers in question reached a conclusion that those touting this as evidence of some grand conspiracy theory would have agreed with. For example, six of the papers were published or funded by the FLCCC and consisted mostly of just made up numbers.
For as shoddy as some of the published data regarding covid dangers are/were, the fact remains that statistically the sizable majority of overtly fraudulent papers were and still are published by contrarians pushing a narrative every bit as hard form the other side. Which is especially notable given this is a relatively small minority of papers published on the topic overall.
Jeessuuuz .. there is a reason I perma blocked you long ago and you just reminded me why .. all it took was to look at just one of your post .. the people going out of there to explain not using real science is beyond belief
Why do we still have 5-6k COVID deaths per month if they WERE effective?
If the WERE effective, the only thing they did was delay COVID killing people by a year or so.
Congrats on that I guess.
If the WERE effective, the only thing they did was delay COVID killing people by a year or so.
Congrats on that I guess.
I say this respectfully, but very angrily! Your like minded doctors help kill my mom! We went to the ER and asked about Ivermectin. To quote the staff, "you mean that horse paste?!" I was only able to see my mom the last few days, while she was in the hospital for more than two weeks. When she went to palliative care, my kids, nieces and nephews only got to be with her for a few hours. Oh, my oldest daughter didn't get to say goodbye!Infection_Ag11 said:FrioAg 00 said:
You talk about how difficult it is to admit you were wrong to someone who was right only for ideological reasons.
In response to a question about why so many physicians/scientists were reluctant to change their turn on various topics.Quote:
But there was, without doubt, NO group in the country who was led less by science and more by political ideology than the physicians and medical institutions.
I mean, you can think that if you want. And certainly there are blind ideologues in medicine just as there are anywhere else. But if you are going to sit here and tell me the average American who protested any given aspect of the pandemic, it's existence or the response did so on the basis of a deep dive into the scientific rationale, well then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Basic, elementary type scientific knowledge was not just ignored - but it was zealously fought against by the supposed "scientists".
This is just completely untrue. Nobody had ANY knowledge of this virus when it first hit the western hemisphere, because the only place we had data from flagrantly lied about literally everything. And the fact that covid, particularly the initial strain, diverged WILDLY in pathogenicity and transmissibility from the most comparable prior viruses we have experience with. And NONE of that preexisting knowledge was "elementary level" anyway. Claiming such a thing is just Dunning-Kruger in its most flagrant form.Quote:
What they did to children (who were almost completely unaffected) and education
As I've said before, this was the most flagrant miscalculation throughout the whole pandemic. But even then, there ARE conceivable scenarios where such a thing would be warranted and the reliable data on morbidity/mortality in children wasn't available until about 6 weeks after it hit the west hard. The data used to claim sooner timeframes by some came from China, where they vastly UNDERSTATED how bad it was for adults and I particular the elderly. We had no reason to ever believe that data and the people touting it wouldn't trust China on literally ANYTHING else.Quote:
the lunacy of unsealed surgical masks and cloth face coverings
Such masks have a significant impact on the transmission of many respiratory viruses, particularly in healthcare settings, just not covid. But anyone claiming they had scientific basis for that in the Spring of 2020 is just lying. Full stop. Particularly since even some other coronaviruses are significantly impeded by such measures.Quote:
the pushing of vaccines that had no chance of keeping up with a rapidly evolving respiratory virus
The evolution of the covid variants, particularly the manner in which they mutated, was both unique and on a rate/scale virology is just not very familiar with. And again, probably the most ignored scientifically indisputable fact on this board is that the vaccines in their first year of use demonstrably decreased the rates of severe disease and death in adults over the age of 50 and the benefit was greater the older you were. With respect to the active strain at the time the vaccine was rolled out, it took the mortality of an 85 year old with 2+ chronic medical conditions down to that of a healthy young adult in their 30s.
Did the claims of decreased transmission turn out to be largely incorrect? Yes. Did the benefits decrease with time and mutations? Absolutely. Was there ever a good reason to vaccinate 12 year olds? No (and if you check I was clearly stating this from the start when these were rolled out). Was the adverse event rate understated in certain populations, particularly in very young men? Yes. But the vaccines saved A LOT of your parents and grandparents in that first 6-12 months. Maybe even some of you. The absolute bottoming out of deaths we saw in the hospital was stunning. The volume of data documenting this is overwhelming at this point.Quote:
there were honestly so many mistakes pushed that were obvious mistakes made in the name of liberal groupthink
Most of the mistakes were initially not mistakes, they were unknowns, and only later once it was clear they were mistakes are many of these individuals liable. Now there certainly are many, and I'll readily admit there were things I believed that turned out to not be backed by the results, but ultimately there is a clear distinction between the ideologies who held to incorrect ideas far too long and everyone else who was learning as we went. And now in 2023 yes, there is a segment of the population dug in because of "liberal group think". But the same phenomenon exists on the right too, as we can see here. This board refuses to accept some things are we just stone cold facts at this point, because some of the stuff they were told was indeed untrue.
You can take your sanctimonious bull**** somewhere else!
Great post. And I guess I should not have just said young doctors. A lot of doctors of all ages now seem to want to follow like sheep, make money, and go home.Burdizzo said:dermdoc said:one safe place said:It was their moment in the spotlight, the medical profession that is. Maybe one day insurance agents will have a chance to shine, or shoe salespeople.dermdoc said:
.
Why was Covid treated differently than every respiratory virus in history?
Why did noted doctors proclaim that masks and "social distancing" work?
They took it and ran with it. Unfortunately, their 15 minutes of fame ran for a couple of years. And now they will try to excuse themselves from all the errors they made.
With all due respect, I disagree.
The problem is younger docs lack confidence and are going to do whatever the medical establishment says.
I have encountered a handful of doctors over the years that had a God complex. Most times when I visit the doctor I don't need God; I just need some antibiotics. Fortunately, the God Complex Doctors are more an exception than typical so I don't agree with OSP.
That said I don't think young doctors are the sole reason either. I work in engineering, specifically public works projects, where there is a certain degree of licensure and certification and where public safety is priority one. In some ways it is like being a doctor where someone comes to you with a problem, and you have to diagnose it and offer a solution. It is suppose to involve a lot of critical thinking, but the economic pressures mean there are limits on time and budget, so the response is often derived from "how did we address the last problem?" or "what is everyone else doing?" Critical thinking can often fall in priority to expediency. That is not an insult to you personally. I find your posts to be highly enlightened, but I think the medical profession is not immune to those economic pressures. There is a lot of groupthink and monkey-see monkey do in the medical industry, IMO, and I think the national COVID response was a prime example.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Logos Stick said:
Why do we still have 5-6k COVID deaths per month if they WERE effective?
If the WERE effective, the only thing they did was delay COVID killing people by a year or so.
Congrats on that I guess.
He's really clueless.. foot soldiers of paid political medical world we live in .. get the check and go home and support non science
one safe place said:It was their moment in the spotlight, the medical profession that is. Maybe one day insurance agents will have a chance to shine, or shoe salespeople.dermdoc said:
.
Why was Covid treated differently than every respiratory virus in history?
Why did noted doctors proclaim that masks and "social distancing" work?
They took it and ran with it. Unfortunately, their 15 minutes of fame ran for a couple of years. And now they will try to excuse themselves from all the errors they made.
Basement working infectious disease guys finally had their moment and a chance to make some bucks.
Really great guys when they chase down an infection that was in the main line that upstairs docs couldn't figure out. They chose the wrong side.
JoeAggie1010 said:I say this respectfully, but very angrily! Your like minded doctors help kill my mom! We went to the ER and asked about Ivermectin. To quote the staff, "you mean that horse paste?!" I was only able to see my mom the last few days, while she was in the hospital for more than two weeks. When she went to palliative care, my kids, nieces and nephews only got to be with her for a few hours. Oh, my oldest daughter didn't get to say goodbye!Infection_Ag11 said:FrioAg 00 said:
You talk about how difficult it is to admit you were wrong to someone who was right only for ideological reasons.
In response to a question about why so many physicians/scientists were reluctant to change their turn on various topics.Quote:
But there was, without doubt, NO group in the country who was led less by science and more by political ideology than the physicians and medical institutions.
I mean, you can think that if you want. And certainly there are blind ideologues in medicine just as there are anywhere else. But if you are going to sit here and tell me the average American who protested any given aspect of the pandemic, it's existence or the response did so on the basis of a deep dive into the scientific rationale, well then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Basic, elementary type scientific knowledge was not just ignored - but it was zealously fought against by the supposed "scientists".
This is just completely untrue. Nobody had ANY knowledge of this virus when it first hit the western hemisphere, because the only place we had data from flagrantly lied about literally everything. And the fact that covid, particularly the initial strain, diverged WILDLY in pathogenicity and transmissibility from the most comparable prior viruses we have experience with. And NONE of that preexisting knowledge was "elementary level" anyway. Claiming such a thing is just Dunning-Kruger in its most flagrant form.Quote:
What they did to children (who were almost completely unaffected) and education
As I've said before, this was the most flagrant miscalculation throughout the whole pandemic. But even then, there ARE conceivable scenarios where such a thing would be warranted and the reliable data on morbidity/mortality in children wasn't available until about 6 weeks after it hit the west hard. The data used to claim sooner timeframes by some came from China, where they vastly UNDERSTATED how bad it was for adults and I particular the elderly. We had no reason to ever believe that data and the people touting it wouldn't trust China on literally ANYTHING else.Quote:
the lunacy of unsealed surgical masks and cloth face coverings
Such masks have a significant impact on the transmission of many respiratory viruses, particularly in healthcare settings, just not covid. But anyone claiming they had scientific basis for that in the Spring of 2020 is just lying. Full stop. Particularly since even some other coronaviruses are significantly impeded by such measures.Quote:
the pushing of vaccines that had no chance of keeping up with a rapidly evolving respiratory virus
The evolution of the covid variants, particularly the manner in which they mutated, was both unique and on a rate/scale virology is just not very familiar with. And again, probably the most ignored scientifically indisputable fact on this board is that the vaccines in their first year of use demonstrably decreased the rates of severe disease and death in adults over the age of 50 and the benefit was greater the older you were. With respect to the active strain at the time the vaccine was rolled out, it took the mortality of an 85 year old with 2+ chronic medical conditions down to that of a healthy young adult in their 30s.
Did the claims of decreased transmission turn out to be largely incorrect? Yes. Did the benefits decrease with time and mutations? Absolutely. Was there ever a good reason to vaccinate 12 year olds? No (and if you check I was clearly stating this from the start when these were rolled out). Was the adverse event rate understated in certain populations, particularly in very young men? Yes. But the vaccines saved A LOT of your parents and grandparents in that first 6-12 months. Maybe even some of you. The absolute bottoming out of deaths we saw in the hospital was stunning. The volume of data documenting this is overwhelming at this point.Quote:
there were honestly so many mistakes pushed that were obvious mistakes made in the name of liberal groupthink
Most of the mistakes were initially not mistakes, they were unknowns, and only later once it was clear they were mistakes are many of these individuals liable. Now there certainly are many, and I'll readily admit there were things I believed that turned out to not be backed by the results, but ultimately there is a clear distinction between the ideologies who held to incorrect ideas far too long and everyone else who was learning as we went. And now in 2023 yes, there is a segment of the population dug in because of "liberal group think". But the same phenomenon exists on the right too, as we can see here. This board refuses to accept some things are we just stone cold facts at this point, because some of the stuff they were told was indeed untrue.
You can take your sanctimonious bull**** somewhere else!
With all due respect, she might have still died with the ivermectin, but the medical "professionals" showed that most are mindless droids that don't engage in critical thinking. The "ivermectin is horse paste" is one of many examples, led by our very own "scientific" FDA.
Dr Lexus (idiocracy) scene "UNSCANNABLE" comes to mind anytime I think about the amount of respect this era of medical schooled professionals churns out.
I agree and appreciate the thoughtful response. Infectious and his group think folks don't have a seat at the table anymore. If they had any self respect, they would look in the mirror, and say I was at fault. Then, quit medicine and find another career.Logos Stick said:JoeAggie1010 said:I say this respectfully, but very angrily! Your like minded doctors help kill my mom! We went to the ER and asked about Ivermectin. To quote the staff, "you mean that horse paste?!" I was only able to see my mom the last few days, while she was in the hospital for more than two weeks. When she went to palliative care, my kids, nieces and nephews only got to be with her for a few hours. Oh, my oldest daughter didn't get to say goodbye!Infection_Ag11 said:FrioAg 00 said:
You talk about how difficult it is to admit you were wrong to someone who was right only for ideological reasons.
In response to a question about why so many physicians/scientists were reluctant to change their turn on various topics.Quote:
But there was, without doubt, NO group in the country who was led less by science and more by political ideology than the physicians and medical institutions.
I mean, you can think that if you want. And certainly there are blind ideologues in medicine just as there are anywhere else. But if you are going to sit here and tell me the average American who protested any given aspect of the pandemic, it's existence or the response did so on the basis of a deep dive into the scientific rationale, well then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Basic, elementary type scientific knowledge was not just ignored - but it was zealously fought against by the supposed "scientists".
This is just completely untrue. Nobody had ANY knowledge of this virus when it first hit the western hemisphere, because the only place we had data from flagrantly lied about literally everything. And the fact that covid, particularly the initial strain, diverged WILDLY in pathogenicity and transmissibility from the most comparable prior viruses we have experience with. And NONE of that preexisting knowledge was "elementary level" anyway. Claiming such a thing is just Dunning-Kruger in its most flagrant form.Quote:
What they did to children (who were almost completely unaffected) and education
As I've said before, this was the most flagrant miscalculation throughout the whole pandemic. But even then, there ARE conceivable scenarios where such a thing would be warranted and the reliable data on morbidity/mortality in children wasn't available until about 6 weeks after it hit the west hard. The data used to claim sooner timeframes by some came from China, where they vastly UNDERSTATED how bad it was for adults and I particular the elderly. We had no reason to ever believe that data and the people touting it wouldn't trust China on literally ANYTHING else.Quote:
the lunacy of unsealed surgical masks and cloth face coverings
Such masks have a significant impact on the transmission of many respiratory viruses, particularly in healthcare settings, just not covid. But anyone claiming they had scientific basis for that in the Spring of 2020 is just lying. Full stop. Particularly since even some other coronaviruses are significantly impeded by such measures.Quote:
the pushing of vaccines that had no chance of keeping up with a rapidly evolving respiratory virus
The evolution of the covid variants, particularly the manner in which they mutated, was both unique and on a rate/scale virology is just not very familiar with. And again, probably the most ignored scientifically indisputable fact on this board is that the vaccines in their first year of use demonstrably decreased the rates of severe disease and death in adults over the age of 50 and the benefit was greater the older you were. With respect to the active strain at the time the vaccine was rolled out, it took the mortality of an 85 year old with 2+ chronic medical conditions down to that of a healthy young adult in their 30s.
Did the claims of decreased transmission turn out to be largely incorrect? Yes. Did the benefits decrease with time and mutations? Absolutely. Was there ever a good reason to vaccinate 12 year olds? No (and if you check I was clearly stating this from the start when these were rolled out). Was the adverse event rate understated in certain populations, particularly in very young men? Yes. But the vaccines saved A LOT of your parents and grandparents in that first 6-12 months. Maybe even some of you. The absolute bottoming out of deaths we saw in the hospital was stunning. The volume of data documenting this is overwhelming at this point.Quote:
there were honestly so many mistakes pushed that were obvious mistakes made in the name of liberal groupthink
Most of the mistakes were initially not mistakes, they were unknowns, and only later once it was clear they were mistakes are many of these individuals liable. Now there certainly are many, and I'll readily admit there were things I believed that turned out to not be backed by the results, but ultimately there is a clear distinction between the ideologies who held to incorrect ideas far too long and everyone else who was learning as we went. And now in 2023 yes, there is a segment of the population dug in because of "liberal group think". But the same phenomenon exists on the right too, as we can see here. This board refuses to accept some things are we just stone cold facts at this point, because some of the stuff they were told was indeed untrue.
You can take your sanctimonious bull**** somewhere else!
With all due respect, she might have still died with the ivermectin, but the medical "professionals" showed that most are mindless droids that don't engage in critical thinking. The "ivermectin is horse paste" is one of many examples, led by our very own "scientific" FDA.
They had their chance "to do no harm."
Quote:
The vaccines were only effective at producing an antibody response.
Incorrect, they DRAMATICALLY decreased the rates of severe disease and death in high risk groups. This is EXTENSIVELY documented in the research at this point. The benefit is past us now due to mutation and the fact that essentially everyone has had covid, most people more than once.
They were not effective at reducing transmission or rates or + test results in any meaningful way.
Quote:
There is voluminous evidence that the mRNA vaccines produced a pathogenic priming effect that made the vacinated more susceptibleto COVID infction.
This just isn't true, and it won't become true the more times you post it:
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I was grateful for the MDs that put their careers on the line and followed their instincts as doctors. Didn't subscribe to the cookie cutter models that were in place. The ones we all heard of were McCullough, Malone, Simone Gold, Mary Bowden, etc.. Expect there's many we never heard of.
(someone will be along to call them frauds & objectively wrong on most things)
Maybe some of the other MDs were handcuffed by hospital admins.
(someone will be along to call them frauds & objectively wrong on most things)
Maybe some of the other MDs were handcuffed by hospital admins.
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