14th Amendment and Citizenship

4,026 Views | 65 Replies | Last: 7 days ago by JayM
twk
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While we appear to be headed for a judicial showdown on the precises meaning of the phrase, "...and subject to the jurisdiction thereof...," I haven't seen any discussion about the real life ramifications about this.

The more I read on the subject, the more I think it likely that the Supreme Court might rule with the Trump administration, despite a few cases here and there in history which have been argued to support the contrary position. While I would be quite glad to see the end of "anchor babies," I am concerned, and I think even the conservatives on the court would be concerned, about this interpretation being applied by the government for the first time, even if it is a correct interpretation of the text and the intent of the authors of the amendment.

Personally, there were kids that I went to school with in my small hometown back in the '70s who were born in the US, but whose parents were Mexican, who have lived here approaching 60 years, always treated as citizens, but who might suddenly become aliens if the court were to simply rule that "...subject to the jurisdiction thereof..." doesn't include the US-born children of foreign nationals present in the US illegally (or temporarily). These are people whose citizenship has never been questioned for six decades because they can produce birth certificates showing that they were born in the US.

Rather that force us to this cliff, is there any chance that a constitutional amendment could be passed which would define citizenship, either prospectively from adoption, or, better yet, from a relatively recent date certain (say January 1, 2021, just before Biden took office) as being persons born to citizens of the United States, or legal permanent resident aliens?

Personally, I see this being done as part of a package where an Act of Congress reforms the immigration system to rewrite the asylum rules (explicitly barring anyone who enters the US illegally), and provide some narrow pathway for citizenship (for sure, no crimes, perhaps a probationary period to establish self sufficiency through employment) to the people brought to the US as children prior to the date of the proposed amendment, and have that pathway conditioned upon adoption of the proposed amendment (i.e., no relief for "Dreamers" unless anchor babies are eliminated).
Martin Q. Blank
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No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Slicer97
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Short and sweet: If you're parents are here illegally, you're all going back. And y'all will stay there until you find the means to come here legally.

There. That wasn't so hard.
CanyonAg77
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There is a zero percent chance that the end of birthright citizenship will be made retroactive
Im Gipper
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Quote:

kids that I went to school with in my small hometown back in the '70s who were born in the US, but whose parents were Mexican, who have lived here approaching 60 years, always treated as citizens, but who might suddenly become aliens
Stop right there.

Nothing Trump has done is attempting to take away anyone's citizenship.

It only applies to people born after 2-19-25.

If you want an honest discussion, drop the scare tactics. Just my two cents.

I'm Gipper
Fuzzy Dunlop
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Slicer97 said:

Short and sweet: If you're parents are here illegally, you're all going back. And y'all will stay there until you find the means to come here legally.

There. That wasn't so hard.


This is what I think too. If your parents are illegal, but you were born here, you are going back if you are a minor, or you find a guardian. You can come back when you're 18. Until then, adios.
Double Talkin' Jive...
twk
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Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
twk
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CanyonAg77 said:

There is a zero percent chance that the end of birthright citizenship will be made retroactive
A decision finding that "...subject to the jurisdiction thereof..." excludes children of illegals would apply regardless of date, despite what Trump put in his EO, unless the court were to engage in the most breathtaking case of judicial activism since, arguably, Roe (although Obergfell would be in the running, too).
oh no
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We've got 350 million people, maybe closer to half a billion if all illegals were to be counted. It doesn't seem like we need to keep the incentive for anyone and everyone to keep sneaking in here to make babies anymore. We'll never get a repeal or another amendment, since there are too many America-hating communists in both the US and state legislatures to get 2/3rds + 3/4ths respectively. Can only hope for judiciary to uphold Trump admin's interpretation and I'm skeptical that can happen.
the most cool guy
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This is going to be a loser for Trump even though I wish it wasn't. Everybody in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the United States. There are a few limited exceptions, but a bunch of randos crossing the border illegally is not one of them. They're all under our jurisdiction. That's why we can bring them in front of an U.S. immigration court and have them deported. A court might say differently, but I doubt it. This will require a constitutional amendment and will never happen.
twk
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oh no said:

We've got 350 million people, maybe closer to half a billion if all illegals were to be counted. It doesn't seem like we need to keep the incentive for anyone and everyone to keep sneaking in here to make babies anymore. We'll never get a repeal or another amendment, since there are too many America-hating communists in both the US and state legislatures to get 2/3rds + 3/4ths respectively. Can only hope for judiciary to uphold Trump admin's interpretation and I'm skeptical that can happen.
I agree with Trump's interpretation of the 14th, but his attempt to limit this interpretation to be prospective would have no basis in the constitution. The Supreme Court is supposed to interpret the Constitution, not rewrite it, and having an effective date for an interpretation would be unusual, to say the least. Maybe they did that with Miranda (I don't recall), but that's the kind of judicial activism that makes conservatives' skin crawl.
twk
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the most cool guy said:

This is going to be a loser for Trump even though I wish it wasn't. Everybody in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the United States. There are a few limited exceptions, but a bunch of randos crossing the border illegally is not one of them. They're all under our jurisdiction. That's why we can bring them in front of an U.S. immigration court and have them deported. A court might say differently, but I doubt it. This will require a constitutional amendment and will never happen.
If you go back and read the debates on adoption of the amendment, there was actually a some discussion on the topic, and the exclusion of Indian tribes, who were manifestly present in the US but still "...not subject to the jurisdiction thereof..." is a pretty good argument that the limitation is broader than children of diplomats and foreign combatants.
Martin Q. Blank
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twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
KerrAg76
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Drama queen…just stop it
Ol_Ag_02
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the most cool guy said:

This is going to be a loser for Trump even though I wish it wasn't. Everybody in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the United States. There are a few limited exceptions, but a bunch of randos crossing the border illegally is not one of them. They're all under our jurisdiction. That's why we can bring them in front of an U.S. immigration court and have them deported. A court might say differently, but I doubt it. This will require a constitutional amendment and will never happen.


Immigration Courts are neither criminal nor civil courts. They're administrative offices under the DHS.

So your argument is flat out wrong.
twk
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Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.
Im Gipper
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You're scare tactics aren't working, time to take the L on this one. Sorry the thread didn't go as you hoped

I'm Gipper
Ol_Ag_02
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twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.


Again. It would never be retroactive. But let's say it was because you're wringing your hands over it.

Then they gotta go back. Not my problem.
FCBlitz
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I remember when Elian Gonzales made it to Florida but Clinton had him removed at gunpoint and sent back to Cuba. Even though he was protected by law.
Im Gipper
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FCBlitz said:

I remember when Elian Gonzales made it to Florida but Clinton had him removed at gunpoint and sent back to Cuba. Even though he was protected by law.


What does this have to do with anything?

I'm Gipper
Martin Q. Blank
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twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.
I'm pretty sure your birth certificate is proof of your citizenship.
fc2112
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The SCOTUS precedent now is birthright citizenship. No way anyone who has been granted citizenship has it revoked.

Going forward though, the SCOTUS interpretation could, and I believe should, be changed.
twk
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Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.
I'm pretty sure your birth certificate is proof of your citizenship.
Not if you are a child of American citizens born abroad. And, not if we eliminate birthplace citizenship.
Martin Q. Blank
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twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.
I'm pretty sure your birth certificate is proof of your citizenship.
Not if you are a child of American citizens born abroad. And, not if we eliminate birthplace citizenship.
Again, Trump will not direct USCIS to strip their citizenship. If you want to force his hand, you are welcome to sue all the way up to SCOTUS.
fc2112
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Martin Q. Blank said:

I'm pretty sure your birth certificate is proof of your citizenship.
As long as it's dated before January 20, 2025.
twk
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fc2112 said:

The SCOTUS precedent now is birthright citizenship. No way anyone who has been granted citizenship has it revoked.

Going forward though, the SCOTUS interpretation could, and I believe should, be changed.
The Supreme Court has never ruled comprehensively on birthplace (I'm not calling it birthright, as that is a misnomer) citizenship. If it had, then Trump's EO would be ridiculous.

How would the Court say, looking back, we find the arguments that "...subject to the jurisdiction thereof..." does not include children born in the United States to foreign nationals, but, we are not going to apply this interpretation prior to the date of this order, and, instead, will apply a different definition to all previous cases?
twk
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Quote:

Again, Trump will not direct USCIS to strip their citizenship. If you want to force his hand, you are welcome to sue all the way up to SCOTUS.
It's not up to Trump, or any president, to simply choose to enforce the law or not.

This could even come up in private litigation. For example, you could have a divorce case where one parent was born in the US decades ago, but their parents were illegals, and in the custody dispute, the other spouse could show that they were not a citizen.
fc2112
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United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) is the case that set the precedent. It decided ""a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China", automatically became a U.S. citizen at birth.

So there can certainly be a reinterpretation of this, but it is the case upon which our present system is built.

taxpreparer
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twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.
I'm pretty sure your birth certificate is proof of your citizenship.
Not if you are a child of American citizens born abroad. And, not if we eliminate birthplace citizenship.


I doubt Supreme Court rulings are massively retroactive. How many babies have been resurrected since Roe v Wade was reversed? How many citizens fenied the vote due poll taxes, had there votes applied to potentially change the ekection results? Identifying all those 60yo (or even 30yo) persons born to parents who were here illegally will not be a top priority for anyone not trying to prove the Supreme Court wrong.

Theoretically, you are correct. Practically, ain't gonna happen.
chjoak
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fc2112 said:

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) is the case that set the precedent. It decided ""a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China", automatically became a U.S. citizen at birth.

So there can certainly be a reinterpretation of this, but it is the case upon which our present system is built.


You are correct...... however in this case the parents in question were in the US legally and therefore "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". There is no legal ruling in the case of an individual born to parents that were in the US illegally.
twk
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fc2112 said:

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) is the case that set the precedent. It decided ""a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China", automatically became a U.S. citizen at birth.

So there can certainly be a reinterpretation of this, but it is the case upon which our present system is built.


Under the immigration laws at the time, Wong Kim Ark's parents were not illegal aliens. So, while it would certainly be considered on this question, it would not have to be overruled.
Martin Q. Blank
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twk said:

Quote:

Again, Trump will not direct USCIS to strip their citizenship. If you want to force his hand, you are welcome to sue all the way up to SCOTUS.
It's not up to Trump, or any president, to simply choose to enforce the law or not.
Then sue him.
chjoak
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Ol_Ag_02 said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

twk said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

No one will have their citizenship stripped. It applies to those born after Trump's EO.

Also, it applies to illegal immigrants only. Children of those who migrated legally (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) are citizens.
Trump doesn't have the power to limit the 14th amendment.

Nor does the court, if they do their job properly.

It is an all or nothing proposition.
The court will simply agree with Trump that children of illegal immigrants do not fall under the 14th amendment. What he wants to do beyond that is up to him, but I highly doubt he will direct USCIS to strip someone's citizenship.
You don't get a card saying that you are a citizen. It's not like a car title. You either are, or you aren't. If Trump's interpretation of the14th prevails, then there will be millions of adults born in the US who are no longer citizens, although they may skate by without anyone challenging their citizenship for years or decades. It would be quite a thing to have hanging over your head.


Again. It would never be retroactive. But let's say it was because you're wringing your hands over it.

Then they gotta go back. Not my problem.
technically twk is correct. unless the amendment is actually changed there is no effective date on the 14th based on an interpretation of the meaning. if Trump wished to create the effective date he technically has various avenues but the ruling alone can't pick an arbitrary date.
Maroon Dawn
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The ruling we need is that

-if you are here to two us citizens you are a citizen

- If you are born here to parents legally in the US, you have dual citizenship (ideally also meaning your parents don't get to stay here after their visa expires and must take you back to their country or origin and then when you turn 18 you can move back here yourself if you want)

And if your parent(s) are not here legally, too bad you all go back, no citizenship to you
taxpreparer
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twk said:

Quote:

Again, Trump will not direct USCIS to strip their citizenship. If you want to force his hand, you are welcome to sue all the way up to SCOTUS.
It's not up to Trump, or any president, to simply choose to enforce the law or not.


This explains why so few illegals crossed our borders during Biden's presidency.
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