ABATTBQ87 said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Good grief we are nowhere close to the worst job market in decades. I've been a recruiter/Talent Acquisition professional for 27 years and rank the Obama era as the worst, followed by the over reaction to Covid in 2020.

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What field do you recruit in?
I've been in tech for 27 years and this one is close to the 2008, though not exactly as bad. However back then there weren't as many immigrants from India flooding the job market, now they are everywhere in places like CA and TX and WA. So it is as bad overall.

M.C. Swag said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Wait. The people who have been working from home for 5 years are entitled?! NOOOOOOOO!

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My guy, you post everyday on this forum from sun up to sun down. Just yesterday alone, you made 50+ posts (and that's just the ones that weren't deleted). Idk if you're in the position to critique anyone elses work habits.

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He's 70, retired and doesn't have a front yard so he can't yell at people walking on his grass.

You call it arrogance. I call it personal experience.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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For the past 8 years we have been told there are not enough American workers so we need illegal immigrants, H1-B visa holders, and that the economy is great. If that is true then there are jobs available.

Maybe they can learn to....code?

IDK...and frankly at this point, don't care.

I am not willing to kill the future of my kids and grandkids and the country to save government workers from having to go out and find a new job.

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I agree with you, but we need to do something about H1B misuse and Trump isn't talking about it anymore.

Sims said:

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infinity ag said:

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halfastros81 said:

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If they are competent they will find work.

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Are you serious? Yet another "let them have cake" post. Either you are too young to have seen the world or too old not to care about the job market anymore.

I know so many competent people who cannot find a job because of outsourcing, too many immigrants, many reasons.

Sometimes the arrogance on this board is mindboggling.

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It's not arrogance for many. It is more likely that it is the result of having lost employment or major project prospects on the whim of a politician. The knowledge that they can pivot, survive and continue to thrive. Unfortunately, many in government have never had to learn those behaviors and assumed they never would.

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But you must realize that not everyone is smart and can pivot and make money in other ways. Looking at this board, that part is pretty clear as well.
The President should make decisions that is best for the country - not just "smart people". You cannot wish stupid people away. Or old people who cannot work.

Kvetch said:

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titan said:

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Sims said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Even though I don't accept the premise that competent people cant find jobs currently if they aren't completely inflexible in their requirements ie...(has to be 100% remote, has to be located in picturesque scenic valleys of idaho)... Let's say these hundreds of thousands of people don't find jobs...in the absence of other opportunity, should the federal government be a jobs program that provides no value to the citizenry other than wages?

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Not at HIGH pay. An interesting argument might be made that perhaps a system (not saying ours) might find it in their interest if they always did provide jobs in one form or another, at something just above subsistence level where the incentive to get more remains, but also is work of some kind and not a hand out. This may become a bigger issue in near future with the AI and automation trends. But that's another thread. Carry on.

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Except that will just raise the poverty line and then in 10 years unions will start protesting for "livable wages" just like we see for minimum wage jobs now. The poor will always be among us. Unless you find a cure for scarcity, paying everyone a minimum wage of $1,000,000 would just move up the poverty line to $1,100,000.

Jobs programs don't work in the long run unless they are productive. Giving someone menial work and paying them a "subsistence" wage is bad for everyone in the long term, especially the person working the job. The only caveat here would be if these jobs were apprenticeships that were preparing them with the skills of a trade.

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Well, did say "not saying ours" -- regarding system. Probably unions don't exist in the scenario. This refers to a more future setting --- have been wondering what happens when the vast majority don't even have the equivalent of tilling the land to get by. And these would be apprenticeships yes, very big on that and discarding the resume system.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Wait. The people who have been working from home for 5 years are entitled?! NOOOOOOOO!

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Yes! I'm not in government but I have been working remotely four days a week and I do feel entitled. In fact, if my shop follows Trump's lead and asks me to drive into work five days a week, I'll just tell them I'm retiring. Can't go back - I'm spoiled.

infinity ag said:

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halfastros81 said:

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If they are competent they will find work.

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Are you serious? Yet another "let them have cake" post. Either you are too young to have seen the world or too old not to care about the job market anymore.

I know so many competent people who cannot find a job because of outsourcing, too many immigrants, many reasons.

Sometimes the arrogance on this board is mindboggling.

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He's absolutely correct. If they are competent, they will find work. It has nothing to do with "let them eat cake", If you are going to quote Marie Antoinette, get it right.

These folks working for the government have been untouchable for years. It's about time they feel what it's like for regular folks.
Try losing your job at 59 and finding a job in the private sector. It's possible, but you may have to take a step backwards in pay. But if you need a job and are good at it, you'll rise to the top.

You know Infinity Ag, i've seen you refer to folks like us older Aggies as Boomers. In fact you called Dimon one in a previous thread. It's entitled ingrates like yourself that give your generation such a bad reputation.

Scoopen Skwert said:

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Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Nope, nada, nothing in there about a guaranteed job.

I've gone through 2 layoffs. Times get tough but you have to do what is best for you and your family. Sometimes that means taking 2 jobs to provide 75% of the income you did from the job you lost.

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real man response. and i agree, i have also been laid off twice over the last 20 years working in banking and finance. always top performer but sometimes that doesn't matter. u just have to find a way to make it until you find something else.

infinity ag said:

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Sims said:

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infinity ag said:

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halfastros81 said:

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If they are competent they will find work.

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Are you serious? Yet another "let them have cake" post. Either you are too young to have seen the world or too old not to care about the job market anymore.

I know so many competent people who cannot find a job because of outsourcing, too many immigrants, many reasons.

Sometimes the arrogance on this board is mindboggling.

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It's not arrogance for many. It is more likely that it is the result of having lost employment or major project prospects on the whim of a politician. The knowledge that they can pivot, survive and continue to thrive. Unfortunately, many in government have never had to learn those behaviors and assumed they never would.

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But you must realize that not everyone is smart and can pivot and make money in other ways. Looking at this board, that part is pretty clear as well.
The President should make decisions that is best for the country - not just "smart people". You cannot wish stupid people away. Or old people who cannot work.

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Yeah, and I think that is part of the point Titan is making.

It's going to be a give and take from both sides of the argument.

You want the government to simply pay you to exist? Well, there's gonna be some strings attached and you're probably not going to be able to get 5 streaming services and take vacations every year.

You might even *gasp* have to learn a trade. I know a lot of well-to-do plumbers and electricians that would most would consider "stupid people."

I think your example more aptly describes the two groups of people by describing them as driven or lazy rather than smart or stupid.

God will always provide. That's what got me through tough times. I don't mean to belittle anyone by this.

I don't disagree with you but those that didn't will still be ok if they are competent and willing to figure out their economic niche. Losing a job or even a career is not the end of the world even tho it may seem like it is. Those that persist in the "woe is me" attitude , they will probably suffer more than they should until they change their attitude .

Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Welcome to what private sector workers deal with every downturn

We need to get back to the mentality that these jobs are service jobs and temporary. At most, they should be seen as tied to the current administration so that if the POTUS gets voted out then your job in whatever agency you are in could simply be turned over to someone in the next admin. In other words, you have a job for four years and nothing past that is not remotely guaranteed.

That's how this used to work. Career bureaucrats are a cancer.

Really a broad brush but the always growing federal workforce as a jobs program is a defect not a positive feature for this country.

As everyone with a pulse coupled with a functioning brain stem should be able to comprehend the executive branch has turned into a massive corrupt organized crime network defrauding the US taxpayer

Mike Rowe knows...
https://www.facebook.com/reel/2091950881322874/?referral_source=reshare_feed_unit

YouBet said:

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We need to get back to the mentality that these jobs are service jobs and temporary. At most, they should be seen as tied to the current administration so that if the POTUS gets voted out then your job in whatever agency you are in could simply be turned over to someone in the next admin. In other words, you have a job for four years and nothing past that is not remotely guaranteed.

That's how this used to work. Career bureaucrats are a cancer.

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Agreed. Administrative jobs should be limited in tenure. Maybe admin to admin is a bit short but certainly a term limit on these jobs much as there should be a term limit on Congress and potentially the federal judiciary.

I would support a constitutional amendment to either put term limits across the government or REMOVE the term limit on POTUS.

Oilfield is always hiring. If they really wanted to work, they could always hire on as a roustabout since their gravy train with biscuit wheels has been derailed.

Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Not our problem

captkirk said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Not our problem

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Correct. My Corp IT team was blown up and laid off after I had 26 years with the company. I was in my late 50's. I found two sequential wfh jobs in aerospace and medical before retiring last month (truth, not humblebrag). The job market is fine for people coming from the federal government (or anywhere), who have useful skills and motivation...oh. I think I may have just stumbled across the problem!

BTKAG97 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Wait. The people who have been working from home for 5 years are entitled?! NOOOOOOOO!

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My guy, you post everyday on this forum from sun up to sun down. Just yesterday alone, you made 50+ posts (and that's just the ones that weren't deleted). Idk if you're in the position to critique anyone elses work habits.

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He's 70, retired and doesn't have a front yard so he can't yell at people walking on his grass.

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Not even close.

CampSkunk said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Wait. The people who have been working from home for 5 years are entitled?! NOOOOOOOO!

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Yes! I'm not in government but I have been working remotely four days a week and I do feel entitled. In fact, if my shop follows Trump's lead and asks me to drive into work five days a week, I'll just tell them I'm retiring. Can't go back - I'm spoiled.

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What you and your employer decide is your business. You are only accountable to him.

Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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This is some of the most exaggerated hyperbolic language i've seen in a while. Congrats.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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BTKAG97 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Wait. The people who have been working from home for 5 years are entitled?! NOOOOOOOO!

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My guy, you post everyday on this forum from sun up to sun down. Just yesterday alone, you made 50+ posts (and that's just the ones that weren't deleted). Idk if you're in the position to critique anyone elses work habits.

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He's 70, retired and doesn't have a front yard so he can't yell at people walking on his grass.

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Not even close.

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Hey, I'm defending you.

Kvetch said:

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95%+ of the DC bureaucracy voted Democrat. These stories are fake or people looking for a cash grab.

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DING DING DING!

The same news outlets who trot out an entrenched exec level USAID recipient as a poor public servant and hammered us all October with ads featuring "Reformed MAGA voter" paid actors are still using the same playbook.

Boomer#85 said:

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infinity ag said:

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halfastros81 said:

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If they are competent they will find work.

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Are you serious? Yet another "let them have cake" post. Either you are too young to have seen the world or too old not to care about the job market anymore.

I know so many competent people who cannot find a job because of outsourcing, too many immigrants, many reasons.

Sometimes the arrogance on this board is mindboggling.

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He's absolutely correct. If they are competent, they will find work. It has nothing to do with "let them eat cake", If you are going to quote Marie Antoinette, get it right.

These folks working for the government have been untouchable for years. It's about time they feel what it's like for regular folks.
Try losing your job at 59 and finding a job in the private sector. It's possible, but you may have to take a step backwards in pay. But if you need a job and are good at it, you'll rise to the top.

You know Infinity Ag, i've seen you refer to folks like us older Aggies as Boomers. In fact you called Dimon one in a previous thread. It's entitled ingrates like yourself that give your generation such a bad reputation.

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I don't use the term "Boomer" in a derogatory way, there are many others who use it a lot more than I do. To be honest, we all will some day go through the same cycle as we age, so this is not a knock on "Boomers". We are used to doing things a certain way and the world changes and we don't or can't adapt. I am sure this has happened throughout history.
I am sorry if you got offended, I really am, that was not my intention so please accept my apologies.

Just an FYI, I have lost my job several times and several in a row. All of those times were because the upper management screwed up their jobs or wanted to sell the company and made me and others pay the price. This is why I hate the top management of US companies, they are sociopaths, greedy and selfish. The US Government has also enabled them in their bad behavior of laying people off and then getting tax breaks and then giving the CEO huge bonuses. It's all a scam, and I am sure you know it. I don't trust US companies one bit but I got around the money situation by getting good at investing so I don't need another job unless I want to get out of the house. TexAgs Business group helped me get started some 20 years ago with stock tips.

I agree with you that lazy people who do no work need to get laid off. No objection there. But there is a lot of collateral damage where good hard-working people get affected and the "let them have cake" attitude is offensive as these are real people, not just numbers. The solution given is "let them start a business, I did it". Not everyone is business savvy or educated or qualified as that poster. There is a clear lack of empathy here. What happens when these people go on welfare or become homeless? They become everyone's problem when people die on the streets.

I have as much sympathy for them as they had for me when I was laid off....either time.

First layoff: Top performer on the team, but company decided to outsource the function I provided and the company was only keeping 2 of the 10 of us on staff. And the "most fair" way they decided who to keep was by going straight seniority. So I got the ax.

Second layoff: Hired to centralize a department from 20+ regions to 1 location at corporate. The regions kept crying that they didn't have enough control (nevermind that we were actually seeing quantifiable efficiencies and able to negotiate better deals bc of pooled resources.). The "perception" was that it was all better done locally, even though the numbers didn't agree. Regions kept screaming, so corporate decided to appease them and disband our entire department. 30+ people laid off with no notice.

Did government workers cry for me either of those times? Nope. They can all KMA.

AJ02 said:

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I have as much sympathy for them as they had for me when I was laid....either time.

First layoff: Top performer on the team, but company decided to outsource the function I provided and the company was only keeping 2 of the 10 of us on staff. And the "most fair" way they decided who to keep was by going straight seniority. So I got the ax.

Second layoff: Hired to centralize a department from 20+ regions to 1 location at corporate. The regions kept crying that they didn't have enough control (nevermind that we were actually seeing quantifiable efficiencies and able to negotiate better deals bc of pooled resources.). The "perception" was that it was all better done locally, even though the numbers didn't agree. Regions kept screaming, so corporate decided to appease them and disband our entire department. 30+ people laid off with no notice.

Did government workers cry for me either of those times? Nope. They can all KMA.

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Now you know why I hate US CEOs. Same logic.

captkirk said:

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infinity ag said:

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Capt. Augustus McCrae said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Because skills and skillful people are always in high demand. In hard times, the best thrive. Be the best. You'll get hired.

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Another canned answer that was probably swiped from a radio talk show with no basis in reality.

If there are 100 jobs available and 1000 competent people, how will they all find jobs? 100 will, what about the 900? Start a business? No one is buying anything because of market conditions. Basic demand and supply.

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Federal employment is not a jobs program.

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Oh? Then why do we give taxpayer money to corps as "tax breaks"?
The Govt is not in the business of paying corps to do business either. But they do.

And while private sector has gone through economic layoffs and jobs moving overseas, the government sector has been immune and grown, and, grown, grown…
It's not pretty realizing that you are part of the problem.

My financial advisor and my lobbying friends are clear that the more successful DOGE is the more our economy will suffer in the short term as these jobs are cut and at least some of those folks if not a fair amount remain unemployed.

The 8 months severance is not just designed to be nice or to avoid lawsuits, its a bit of a stipend to hopefully keep the economy stable through the transition.

Its fair for federal workers to be concerned about potential job loss or from already experiencing that loss. But as many have pointed out, that is how is all works in the non-government world. In my corporate days I was laid off twice. Both times at the height of bad job markets.

I don't recall a lot of sympathy from federal workers and as such they get the same in return. Suck it up and find a new job. These sorts of transitions oft leave people happier and more successful in life vs them trodding along like a fat pig their whole career.

Sims said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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...how? In the worst job market in decades, mid recession, when people with 15 and 20 years of relevant experience are begging for work, and double digital percentages of the population are either unemployed or working below the poverty line.... how are they going to magically find work?

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Even though I don't accept the premise that competent people cant find jobs currently if they aren't completely inflexible in their requirements ie...(has to be 100% remote, has to be located in picturesque scenic valleys of idaho)... Let's say these hundreds of thousands of people don't find jobs...in the absence of other opportunity, should the federal government be a jobs program that provides no value to the citizenry other than wages?

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FDR thought the Federal Government should be in the jobs program business. This problem has existed for decades and seems finally reaching an untenable situation. What exasperates the situation to the breaking point is many in the bureaucracies exist only to develop stifling regulations, indict people through lawfare, aid in the grift, etc.