Burdizzo said:

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Pizza said:

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My general opinion is: You need to be able to do it in Analog before Digital.

Because I have had exposure to a variety of subjects that required me to put pen/pencil to paper, I have a framework of knowledge that allows me to interact with technology and enhance my ability in a given area that I have had classic/'old-school' exposure to.

How that gets implemented...IDK

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There is a reason why Calculus needs to be shown on board and homework assigned before we turn engineers loose with CAD and let them design airplanes and bridges.

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95% of the engineers would not be able to do the math by hand once you get them out of the classroom. That's not how the real world works. Airplanes and bridges are designed via 3D programs that do the lion's share of the actual math.

I've worked at 2 engineering firms. You know how many engineer's I've seen do calculations by hand on paper while designing structures? Zero. I'm sure there are some out there that do hand calcs, but they are the exception to the rule anymore. That is reality.

schmellba99 said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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School should be analog. Excepting courses to get acquainted with tech, all learning should be analog. It builds mental stamina to have to read and write physical material. It helps math to have to show your work.

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To a certain extent I agree.

But the fact of the matter is that the world is a digital world in almost every professional sector and to think that teaching kids in analog but not digital and expecting them to be able to make the jump to digital seamlessly is a fool's errand.

Like everything else, there is a happy medium to be found between the two.

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I think you're right.

I'd suggest the students should learn the mechanics and fundamentals behind the math/process/etc...before learning to use the tools that make it faster/easier.

Understand the 'why' along with the 'how', is the way we innovate. If we just skip to the tool, rather than learn how it works, it doesnt give us a chance to improve/grow.

schmellba99 said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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School should be analog. Excepting courses to get acquainted with tech, all learning should be analog. It builds mental stamina to have to read and write physical material. It helps math to have to show your work.

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To a certain extent I agree.

But the fact of the matter is that the world is a digital world in almost every professional sector and to think that teaching kids in analog but not digital and expecting them to be able to make the jump to digital seamlessly is a fool's errand.

Like everything else, there is a happy medium to be found between the two.

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I somewhat agree but reading, writing, and arithmetic need to be analog. Kids already get exposed to plenty of digital tech as it is. More digital learning could be introduced later but there has to be a good foundation first.

cevans_40 said:

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As an educator, I don't even know how we need to move forward. I do not think technology is the answer but I also don't know how to avoid it. Every single assignment I present to a student is going to be done by AI or some other form of cheating, if I don't make it due the same period it is assigned. The law eliminating phones has certainly helped to a degree but there is nothing that can be done once they leave the school. Critical thinking is non-existent and regurgitation is at an all time high.

My ultimate beef with the system is in regards to the "special" programs. We have labeled so many students with some sort of "special need" that everyone uses it as a crutch and teachers are not going to fail a kid with some sort of label. If roughly 25% of the students are "special" then we need to drastically rethink the program.

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I'm there with you on the "special" labeling. It's a cop out and does more harm than good.

As for going away from it, just remove it all from the schools.

As for AI doing their homework. Make them have more tests and count homework as less a percentage of their entire grade.

Just some thoughts right off bat.

There's something that goes on in your brain when you write something down that does not happen when you type something out, I'm sure of it. I've always had to write things down when learning something new. Maybe I'm a visual learner.

Broseph said:

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Honest question...how does this compare with the dark ages where some learning was lost and the western world devolved?

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The knowledge won't be lost. We'll end up with really smart people that create and manage the AI ecosystem. We will have feudalism just like the dark ages, but it wont be kings, nobles and peasants, it'll be the smart and elite in charge of the machines and everyone else.

The collective IQ is dropping and has been for some time. Every child should be forced to learn to read and write and do basic math (8th grade perhaps), otherwise they can't use the AI.

MasonB said:

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If you want to learn something hard, you have to struggle with it, fail, regroup, try again, suffer some, and eventually triumph. Those are the lessons that stick.

If you run it through AI or call someone to tell you, you save time and may get the solution - but the odds of anything sticking with you are very low, and your own problem-solving abilities get no exercise.

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And this is why we will be easily controlled and swayed going forward because the handful of folks who are doing the inputs to the machines can easily dictate "reality" to everyone else. Because everyone else is simply just looking something up and taking everything at face value since they never learned anything in the first place.

There are only three kinds of people in this world:

Those who can count and those who cannot.

Quote:

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I think you're right.

I'd suggest the students should learn the mechanics behind the math/process/etc...before learning to use the tools that make it faster/easier.

Understand the 'why' along with the 'how', is the way we innovate. If we just skip to the tool, rather than learn how it works, it doesnt give us a chance to improve/grow.

---

Slightly OT but a couple of months back I started a thread about issues with Chinese made jets and carirers, among other things. Upshot was the Chinese are good at stealing that info but as they make modifications, they do not carry through with other modifications needed to other systems to offset the original change. That affects overall quality and longevity.

schmellba99 said:

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Burdizzo said:

---

Pizza said:

---

My general opinion is: You need to be able to do it in Analog before Digital.

Because I have had exposure to a variety of subjects that required me to put pen/pencil to paper, I have a framework of knowledge that allows me to interact with technology and enhance my ability in a given area that I have had classic/'old-school' exposure to.

How that gets implemented...IDK

---

There is a reason why Calculus needs to be shown on board and homework assigned before we turn engineers loose with CAD and let them design airplanes and bridges.

---

95% of the engineers would not be able to do the math by hand once you get them out of the classroom. That's not how the real world works. Airplanes and bridges are designed via 3D programs that do the lion's share of the actual math.

I've worked at 2 engineering firms. You know how many engineer's I've seen do calculations by hand on paper while designing structures? Zero. I'm sure there are some out there that do hand calcs, but they are the exception to the rule anymore. That is reality.

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I graduated before you and I only one time did I manually use calculus. That said, we used the concepts all the time and by learning how to manually calculate the problems, I understood what the computer was spitting out and how to tell when the output made no sense (usually because my input was garbage).

Kids need to learn the manual way to do math (and the other subjects). Once mastered, by all means they need to then use the latest technology so they are competitive in the real world.

akm91 said:

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One of the big districts here in DFW just installed smartboards in the classrooms in the middle of the school year. Not sure why lower grades need smart boards but especially why do it in the middle of the school year.

Complete waste of money and time for the teachers to adjust to new technology.

---

Weird. In education and have heard the trend is against using smart boards, given other more cost effective tech options.

AI is pretty crazy. I tested it a few nights ago by simply taking a picture of my son's algebra homework (on paper, yes) and asking it to solve #7. It returned the answer within 3 seconds. Just the OCR recognition that has taken place over the past decade is shocking to me.

GeorgiAg said:

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Not sure if I'm just getting old, but I think this technology is going to be our downfall.

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At the risk of being a Luddite I have developed this fear as well, in particular when it comes to the military.

I understand using technology to reduce the risk for our troops. That said, our continual reliance on drones for offensive strikes against vastly disadvantaged adversaries is concerning. We don't have to worry about putting putting in the effort to negotiate conditions or put our boys at risk. We just put in the algorithm and let the machine do the rest. It takes the face off the conflict and makes it easy. Those people don't have any resources other than warm bodies, their response is to send terrorists to sway the opinions of the button-pushers. Our lives matter to us, but their lives don't matter much to them. And the technology gap just widens the life-worth gap between us. It is kind of scary to think about

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I think you're right.

I'd suggest the students should learn the mechanics behind the math/process/etc...before learning to use the tools that make it faster/easier.

Understand the 'why' along with the 'how', is the way we innovate. If we just skip to the tool, rather than learn how it works, it doesnt give us a chance to improve/grow.

---

Slightly OT but a couple of months back I started a thread about issues with Chinese made jets and carirers, among other things. Upshot was the Chinese are good at stealing that info but as they make modifications, they do not carry through with other modifications needed to other systems to offset the original change. That affects overall quality and longevity.

---

In a number of areas, they start off ripping off the technology but given the massive number of engineers and scientists, they frequently develop technology that is ultimately superior. The latest area is utility scale battery technology where by many/most metrics, they have the best products in the world.

No Spin Ag said:

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cevans_40 said:

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As an educator, I don't even know how we need to move forward. I do not think technology is the answer but I also don't know how to avoid it. Every single assignment I present to a student is going to be done by AI or some other form of cheating, if I don't make it due the same period it is assigned. The law eliminating phones has certainly helped to a degree but there is nothing that can be done once they leave the school. Critical thinking is non-existent and regurgitation is at an all time high.

My ultimate beef with the system is in regards to the "special" programs. We have labeled so many students with some sort of "special need" that everyone uses it as a crutch and teachers are not going to fail a kid with some sort of label. If roughly 25% of the students are "special" then we need to drastically rethink the program.

---

I'm there with you on the "special" labeling. It's a cop out and does more harm than good.

As for going away from it, just remove it all from the schools.

As for AI doing their homework. Make them have more tests and count homework as less a percentage of their entire grade.

Just some thoughts right off bat.

---

You are headed in the right direction. We have tried to implement a policy that creates less homework but between absences and the ever-present presentation or lockdown drill, we seem to miss a ton of class. Its really hard to cover all of the material without sending anything home. I do hope that something changes. We are currently doing our kids a huge disservice.

akm91 said:

---

One of the big districts here in DFW just installed smartboards in the classrooms in the middle of the school year. Not sure why lower grades need smart boards but especially why do it in the middle of the school year.

Complete waste of money and time for the teachers to adjust to new technology.

---

School boards and admins are like Congress: they've become addicted to spending money. Whether its on football stadiums or supposed classroom needs, you'd be hard pressed to find any district state-wide that is actually trying to do anything, other than cutting (or freezing the pay of) classroom staff, on a reasonable budget.

Aston04 said:

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akm91 said:

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One of the big districts here in DFW just installed smartboards in the classrooms in the middle of the school year. Not sure why lower grades need smart boards but especially why do it in the middle of the school year.

Complete waste of money and time for the teachers to adjust to new technology.

---

Weird. In education and have heard the trend is against using smart boards, given other more cost effective tech options.

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I am sure they are lumping clever panels or something similar into the smart board category

The Collective said:

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AI is pretty crazy. I tested it a few nights ago by simply taking a picture of my son's algebra homework (on paper, yes) and asking it to solve #7. It returned the answer within 3 seconds. Just the OCR recognition that has taken place over the past decade is shocking to me.

---

I uploaded a scholarly journal article the other day to Perplexity and asked it to summarize the article and answer three specific questions. It returned responses containing quotes that did not appear anywhere in the article. It's come a long way, but hallucination is still a problem.

schmellba99 said:

---

Burdizzo said:

---

Pizza said:

---

My general opinion is: You need to be able to do it in Analog before Digital.

Because I have had exposure to a variety of subjects that required me to put pen/pencil to paper, I have a framework of knowledge that allows me to interact with technology and enhance my ability in a given area that I have had classic/'old-school' exposure to.

How that gets implemented...IDK

---

There is a reason why Calculus needs to be shown on board and homework assigned before we turn engineers loose with CAD and let them design airplanes and bridges.

---

95% of the engineers would not be able to do the math by hand once you get them out of the classroom. That's not how the real world works. Airplanes and bridges are designed via 3D programs that do the lion's share of the actual math.

I've worked at 2 engineering firms. You know how many engineer's I've seen do calculations by hand on paper while designing structures? Zero. I'm sure there are some out there that do hand calcs, but they are the exception to the rule anymore. That is reality.

---

Never underestimate the propensity of people to cheat a system.

Back when I was in school I took a structures class where we had been trained to do the structural analysis by hand then were trained to use a software program to that did it for us. One assignment we got had us size members for a truss. The output of the software was an ASCII file (yeah, that shows my age). One classmate wasn't able to get his design to work, so he edited the ASCII file by hand to show it worked and turned it in. The prof sniffed it out and figured out the guy falsified the output file. He got an F and ripped by the prof.

I don't know any other engineers that calc stuff by hand either, but an understanding and appreciation for the foundation is critical to trusting the tools we use as engineers. That is what makes American engineers better than those Chinese people that build non-functioning mockups of American designs.

cevans_40 said:

---

No Spin Ag said:

---

cevans_40 said:

---

As an educator, I don't even know how we need to move forward. I do not think technology is the answer but I also don't know how to avoid it. Every single assignment I present to a student is going to be done by AI or some other form of cheating, if I don't make it due the same period it is assigned. The law eliminating phones has certainly helped to a degree but there is nothing that can be done once they leave the school. Critical thinking is non-existent and regurgitation is at an all time high.

My ultimate beef with the system is in regards to the "special" programs. We have labeled so many students with some sort of "special need" that everyone uses it as a crutch and teachers are not going to fail a kid with some sort of label. If roughly 25% of the students are "special" then we need to drastically rethink the program.

---

I'm there with you on the "special" labeling. It's a cop out and does more harm than good.

As for going away from it, just remove it all from the schools.

As for AI doing their homework. Make them have more tests and count homework as less a percentage of their entire grade.

Just some thoughts right off bat.

---

You are headed in the right direction. We have tried to implement a policy that creates less homework but between absences and the ever-present presentation or lockdown drill, we seem to miss a ton of class. Its really hard to cover all of the material without sending anything home. I do hope that something changes. We are currently doing our kids a huge disservice.

---

Well, best of luck, because you're very right, we are doing our kids a huge disservice.

That also means we're doing our country's future a huge disservice.

It's sad to think countries with less tech in their schools than us will actually have more advantages when they're out of school than our kids.

Pizza said:

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You need to be able to do it in Analog before Digital.

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The training sequence in Rocky IV had it right.

I memorized the multiplication table (up to 9X9) before the middle of 1st grade. We would have tests on it and woe be the ones that didn't pass the test.

Teacher and bamboo rods and the back of the hand is a huge incentive to get it right.

Betting it has way more to do with teaching methods than use of technology. The kinds of methods for doing math and (unclear if still used) whole word reading are absolutely horrendous for applying understanding.

Ryan the Temp said:

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The Collective said:

---

AI is pretty crazy. I tested it a few nights ago by simply taking a picture of my son's algebra homework (on paper, yes) and asking it to solve #7. It returned the answer within 3 seconds. Just the OCR recognition that has taken place over the past decade is shocking to me.

---

I uploaded a scholarly journal article the other day to Perplexity and asked it to summarize the article and answer three specific questions. It returned responses containing quotes that did not appear anywhere in the article. It's come a long way, but hallucination is still a problem.

---

I use AI to do math, both creating problems and solving problems, every day. It messes math up nearly every day. It I had to guess a percentage, I would say 95% correct and 5% error. But I haven't kept track. I just know I use AI daily and it has errors daily.

AI has to be ruthlessly checked.

Recently, I asked AI to give me data sets that had various correlation coefficients. I needed r = 0.3 and r = -0.3. It would confidently say it created sets that would give that correlation coefficient. When I would solve it, it would be r = 0.978 or so. Very annoying. I finally had to make my own data sets.

About other stuff-

Yes, teachers require multiplication facts. For some kids, their brains really resist brain facts. Flash cards do not work on everyone. But, yes, everyone is expected to master multiplication facts.

But the knowledge has to be practiced every now and then to keep that information.


About learning other models of how to do math. I am going to assume one person doesn't care for the area model as one tool.

Come to find out, the area model of multiplication can help with quadratics. It can be used for factoring and causes some kids go "ohhh" if they understood the area model from their elementary years.

Trust me- teachers want to go analog. The love affair with tech is not coming from teachers.

btw why the pushback on smartboards in the classroom?

Would you rather teachers use chalk? an overhead projector and transparencies?

a projector?

wheel the tv in and use a vhs tape?

Smartboards can be rather helpful and a good tool to do the job.

To kind of bring two threads together, how are electronic devices and their use managed while taking the SAT?

Ag98and03 said:

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btw why the pushback on smartboards in the classroom?

Would you rather teachers use chalk? an overhead projector and transparencies?

a projector?

wheel the tv in and use a vhs tape?

Smartboards can be rather helpful and a good tool to do the job.

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Poor children of today will never know the rush of delight that comes with seeing a tv being wheeled into the classroom.

Ag98and03 said:

---

btw why the pushback on smartboards in the classroom?

Would you rather teachers use chalk? an overhead projector and transparencies?

a projector?

wheel the tv in and use a vhs tape?

Smartboards can be rather helpful and a good tool to do the job.

---

For kindergarten? They need hands on learning, manipulatives and other ways to really enhance their learning. Having smart boards in kindergarten is such a waste of money.

Burdizzo said:

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Never underestimate the propensity of people to cheat a system.

Back when I was in school I took a structures class where we had been trained to do the structural analysis by hand then were trained to use a software program to that did it for us. One assignment we got had us size members for a truss. The output of the software was an ASCII file (yeah, that shows my age). One classmate wasn't able to get his design to work, so he edited the ASCII file by hand to show it worked and turned it in. The prof sniffed it out and figured out the guy falsified the output file. He got an F and ripped by the prof.

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Not to derail or get too geeky, but your story reminded me of this -



Carry on

Rapier108 said:

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In school, computers should be used when teaching computer skills and writing papers.

Kids did just fine for hundreds of years using actual books.

But it isn't going to stop. School districts purchase laptops/Chromebooks/tablets by the bazillions.

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You just brought up my other technology pet peeve. The kids are given chromebooks for their entire public education when the rest of the world is largely using Windows PCs. You'd think we could at least set them up to hit the ground running in college or the business world, lack of book learning aside.

Interesting comparison.


The takeaway lesson is that you always have the opportunity to contest or change self-imposed rules, but you can never change the laws of math and physics

aggiehawg said:

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To kind of bring two threads together, how are electronic devices and their use managed while taking the SAT?

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SATs are administered on electronic devices, frequently school chromebooks or laptops. I presume that they have a way to lock down googling for answers, but no idea how secure it is.

Many schools take a school day to administer tests so frequently proctored by teachers. Some will be attentive, many will be on phones (even though not allowed) or grading papers so the proctoring is not very reliable. FWTW.

Ag98and03 said:

---

btw why the pushback on smartboards in the classroom?

Would you rather teachers use chalk? an overhead projector and transparencies?

a projector?

wheel the tv in and use a vhs tape?

Smartboards can be rather helpful and a good tool to do the job.

---

This is funny. My kids (15 and 17) asked me about this a few days ago. I explained having chalkboards in all the rooms and overhead projectors with transparencies. Some teachers wrote directly on the projector with dry erase markers and then cleaned it off when everyone was on board with the material. My kids couldn't believe we didn't even have whiteboards at the time. (I started A&M in '93)

They attend different high schools and I think both schools have a hybrid learning style. They don't have physical text books (which drives me nuts.) But they both have a mix of paper homework and digital homework. My oldest likes physical copies of books where she takes notes in the margins for her Lit classes. My youngest has an advanced Chem class that is hard as hell and is mostly paper.

They are both very smart but my oldest is very Type A and will do what she needs to learn. My youngest needed a different school because the other wasn't pushing her. She had straight A's, but she didn't earn them. She is struggling in her nee school but it is more rigorous and she is getting more out of it because she has to work.