Protestants are crazy. How the need for the Catholic Church isn't self evident will never make sense to me.

Why would Christians want some untrained teacher leading prayers and reading from the Bible?

If Christians want this, they would first all need to agree on which prayer wording to say aloud, and which version of the Bible to read from. I'm OK with this being different at every school. Once everyone agrees, then I'll listen to arguments on if it should happen or not.

American Hardwood said:

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A moment of silent prayer at your desk should be an acceptable compromise. Stay in your seat and be quiet, otherwise it can be deemed you are trying to make a spectacle and not in genuine prayer. Prayer beads and holy texts acceptable as long as you keep your seat.

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That seems like a good idea.

There were moments of silence back in the 80s. No one died and no one cried about prayers or anything.

No reason things can't be similar now, if moments of silence aren't already done.

Rubicante said:

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It's always interesting to me when people want Christianity in schools as though it will reinforce what they are learning at home/at their church. As someone who spent a number of years in a "Christian" school, I was constantly coming home with new ideas from different teachers. Such as:

-You can't get saved before 6, and you can't get saved after 66 (their interpretation of "666"
-Becoming addicted to nicotine makes you bound for hell
-John is ~2,000 years old and is still living on the isle of Patmos
-Charmander, Charmeleon, and Charizard Pokemon cards are demonic-possessed items through which demons can more effectively communicate with the person who has them in their possession.

Just to name a few of my favorites.

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I've literally never heard anyone teach any of those things.

Then again, there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who aren't.

Talon 07 said:

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Protestants are crazy. How the need for the Catholic Church isn't self evident will never make sense to me.

---

Here we go...

As a homeschool parent, the public school system displays some of the most epic wastes of time for students. I cannot find any reason not to introduce additional wastes of time for students.

Rossticus said:

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4 said:

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Rossticus said:

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Luckily, Christianity finally progressed past this phase.

---

You mean the phase where they traveled to the Holy Land to defend Christians against the unprovoked attacks by....

Muslims?

---

Nope. But let's not pretend that Christianity doesn't have its own rather ugly, corrupt, oppressive, and violent past once it was co-opted for political and personal gain. It's been used in its own right to justify foul human behavior.

This doesn't mean that I'm comparing it to or in anyway justifying Islamic violence, oppression, corruption, etc. I find foul and unjustified behavior taken in the name of any religion equally unacceptable.

All that said, I was serious in my statement that I'm glad that Christianity has moved past that point in its history. I say this as a Christian.

---

To be clear, Christians have had some bad phases, Christianity has not. I'm not sure the same can be said of Islam.

I appreciate the distinction and agree with your way of phrasing it more so than the way I did.

No Spin Ag said:

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American Hardwood said:

---

A moment of silent prayer at your desk should be an acceptable compromise. Stay in your seat and be quiet, otherwise it can be deemed you are trying to make a spectacle and not in genuine prayer. Prayer beads and holy texts acceptable as long as you keep your seat.

---

That seems like a good idea.

There were moments of silence back in the 80s. No one died and no one cried about prayers or anything.

No reason things can't be similar now, if moments of silence aren't already done.

---

This already exists in state education law and it's been this way in Texas schools since 1995. All Texas schools must recite the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag, the state of Texas Flag, and observe a full minute of silence every day.

Quote:

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Sec. 25.082. PLEDGES OF ALLEGIANCE; MINUTE OF SILENCE.
(d) The board of trustees of each school district and the governing board of each open-enrollment charter school shall provide for the observance of one minute of silence at each campus following the recitation of the pledges of allegiance to the United States and Texas flags under Subsection (b). During the one-minute period, each student may, as the student chooses, reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student. Each teacher or other school employee in charge of students during that period shall ensure that each of those students remains silent and does not act in a manner that is likely to interfere with or distract another student.

---

The law seemingly solves no problems but only creates a slew of new ones. It is a logistical nightmare.

• Anyone reading/praying cannot do so in the presence of someone who has not signed a consent form. That includes adults. So you can't just stick a teacher or staff member in a room to supervise some kids unless they consent to it.
• The period for prayer cannot replace instructional time which means you either have to cut into a lunch/recess period, offer it during a study hall (not all schools have this), or extend your school day. This is in part because Texas no longer tracks school days by calendar days but minutes. Students have to have at least 75,600 instructional minutes a year and most districts have that measured out to mean the fewest possible calendar days (which saves money).
• The most logical option provided by the law is to have it before normal school hours. In which case, just have a extra curricular bible study for any student that wants to attend and don't worry about all the consent forms. See You at the Pole and Young Life are good examples of this in action.

nai06 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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American Hardwood said:

---

A moment of silent prayer at your desk should be an acceptable compromise. Stay in your seat and be quiet, otherwise it can be deemed you are trying to make a spectacle and not in genuine prayer. Prayer beads and holy texts acceptable as long as you keep your seat.

---

That seems like a good idea.

There were moments of silence back in the 80s. No one died and no one cried about prayers or anything.

No reason things can't be similar now, if moments of silence aren't already done.

---

This already exists in state education law and it's been this way in Texas schools since 1995. All Texas schools must recite the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag, the state of Texas Flag, and observe a full minute of silence every day.

Quote:

---

Sec. 25.082. PLEDGES OF ALLEGIANCE; MINUTE OF SILENCE.
(d) The board of trustees of each school district and the governing board of each open-enrollment charter school shall provide for the observance of one minute of silence at each campus following the recitation of the pledges of allegiance to the United States and Texas flags under Subsection (b). During the one-minute period, each student may, as the student chooses, reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student. Each teacher or other school employee in charge of students during that period shall ensure that each of those students remains silent and does not act in a manner that is likely to interfere with or distract another student.

---

The law seemingly solves no problems but only creates a slew of new ones. It is a logistical nightmare.

• Anyone reading/praying cannot do so in the presence of someone who has not signed a consent form. That includes adults. So you can't just stick a teacher or staff member in a room to supervise some kids unless they consent to it.
• The period for prayer cannot replace instructional time which means you either have to cut into a lunch/recess period, offer it during a study hall (not all schools have this), or extend your school day. This is in part because Texas no longer tracks school days by calendar days but minutes. Students have to have at least 75,600 instructional minutes a year and most districts have that measured out to mean the fewest possible calendar days (which saves money).
• The most logical option provided by the law is to have it before normal school hours. In which case, just have a extra curricular bible study for any student that wants to attend and don't worry about all the consent forms. See You at the Pole and Young Life are good examples of this in action.

---

This is the only one that seems a problem and is stupid beyond belief. You can't stop kids from being influential with each other. If this is the rule then I would want a consent form for kids wearing red, because red is a commie color I don't like red and don't want my kids turning into commies. I want a consent form for kids eating vegetables because eating meat is what humans should do as apex predators. I don't want my kids turning into pansies because Sally is a bad influence with her raw carrot lunch....etc, etc, etc.

American Hardwood said:

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Rossticus said:

---

4 said:

---

Rossticus said:

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Luckily, Christianity finally progressed past this phase.

---

You mean the phase where they traveled to the Holy Land to defend Christians against the unprovoked attacks by....

Muslims?

---

Nope. But let's not pretend that Christianity doesn't have its own rather ugly, corrupt, oppressive, and violent past once it was co-opted for political and personal gain. It's been used in its own right to justify foul human behavior.

This doesn't mean that I'm comparing it to or in anyway justifying Islamic violence, oppression, corruption, etc. I find foul and unjustified behavior taken in the name of any religion equally unacceptable.

All that said, I was serious in my statement that I'm glad that Christianity has moved past that point in its history. I say this as a Christian.

---

To be clear, Christians have had some bad phases, Christianity has not. I'm not sure the same can be said of Islam.

---

Sure, take out the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery in the American south, French wars of religion, conquest/colonization of the new world, etc... absolutely no bad phases at all for Christianity!

American Hardwood said:

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A moment of silent prayer at your desk should be an acceptable compromise. Stay in your seat and be quiet, otherwise it can be deemed you are trying to make a spectacle and not in genuine prayer. Prayer beads and holy texts acceptable as long as you keep your seat.

---

We did this back in the 90's at the end of our morning announcements. Amazing how there weren't any problems, you just went about your day in that ~30 seconds. If you wanted to say a prayer, you did. If you didn't, you didn't.

Shocking, I know.

1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Phatbob said:

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DonHenley said:

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Nah, go to church if you want prayer.

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Tell me you're atheist without telling me you're atheist

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They are worse than "Jeep people". Possibly worse than cross-fitters.

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But probably not as bad as vegans.

Whelp, you missed the point.

At catholic school we came early, attended 8:00 mass (30mins). We also took latin, math, science, english, and religion courses. The difference is that we did not take one gender studies course so it all evened out.

Hey...so.. um said:

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As school districts start voting on prayer periods in schools, what does F16 think.

How can this be implemented? (Logistically, not legally)
Is this a good idea?

I do know how to implement this other than have this br an optional flex period with teachers who agree to host these students.

I think it is a great idea as a public school teacher. I would be willing to host these students and join in daily scripture and prayer (i already do both of these without students in my class). Lots of schools are losing students to private christian schools in my area (including my own kids possibly) so keeping these kids would be a great thing in my opinion.

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My kids go to a private Christian school. The Christ-centric atmosphere is great, but it's not the number one reason they go there. If I thought my kids could thrive as well in public school, they'd still be there.

Some things are a problem only if you want to make it a problem. As demonstrated on this very thread in fact.

I want to say it was 2002 or 2003 the Minute of Silence Law was changed to specifically mention "reflect, pray, or meditate" as it wasn't in the original 1995 version. The 1995 law also stated that "A public school student has an absolute right to individually, voluntarily, and silently pray or meditate in school in a manner that does not disrupt the instructional or other activities of the school."

The Minute of Silence Law was created specifically to allow for a student to pray in school (as is their right). If you don't want to pray, cool. The law doesn't make you pray. You can just sit there quietly and do nothing (which is what most students did when I was teaching).

SB 11 seems to be taking a preexisting law and making it far more complicated for no reason other than to let politicians talk about how they are "putting God and prayer back into public school".

Nobody needs "prayer periods". If you want to pray, pray. There's plenty of downtime in a school day.

I don't see the point.

The System said:

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Why is this necessary as students already have vast rights to pray at school?

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It's performative for the rule makers. Nothing more.

Dan Carlin said:

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American Hardwood said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

4 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Luckily, Christianity finally progressed past this phase.

---

You mean the phase where they traveled to the Holy Land to defend Christians against the unprovoked attacks by....

Muslims?

---

Nope. But let's not pretend that Christianity doesn't have its own rather ugly, corrupt, oppressive, and violent past once it was co-opted for political and personal gain. It's been used in its own right to justify foul human behavior.

This doesn't mean that I'm comparing it to or in anyway justifying Islamic violence, oppression, corruption, etc. I find foul and unjustified behavior taken in the name of any religion equally unacceptable.

All that said, I was serious in my statement that I'm glad that Christianity has moved past that point in its history. I say this as a Christian.

---

To be clear, Christians have had some bad phases, Christianity has not. I'm not sure the same can be said of Islam.

---

Sure, take out the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery in the American south, French wars of religion, conquest/colonization of the new world, etc... absolutely no bad phases at all for Christianity!

---

Wait, what is wrong with The Crusades?

With regards to the rest, things like slavery and mistreatment of your fellow man go against Christ's teachings, very much so.

But Islam was founded by a genocidal maniac who forced a SIX year old girl to be his sex slave. They are still killing and enslaving and treating women worse than livestock in many places throughout the globe. Muhammad himself would hate the lukewarm peaceful muslims and would consider the ones who violently attack the infidels to be his utmost brothers.

It's silly to be like "well come Christians did some pretty bad things hundreds of years ago that Jesus would have disagreed with, so it's no different than the violent religion that was founded by a blood thirsty pedophile and still continues to cause all sorts of problems in pretty much every society across the world".

Just say you hate Christians, we'd at least respect your honesty.

Prune Tracy said:

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Or they could just allow the kids to gather in the library between the start of drop off time and the start of first period like our HS does. It's earmarked as "a time for reading the Bible or other religious texts" and requires parents to fill out a permission form before a student is allowed to join (likely to keep it as a quiet time and not becoming another general gathering space).

Some of y'all let the simplest stuff to get your panties in a twist.

---

We had a "meet at the flagpole" right after school for the same thing and with the same rules. 100% ok with that, ran flawlessly, and everyone was happy with it. We figured this **** out decades ago.

This mandated prayer stuff in school is performative BS to make some people feel good about themselves/ get their names in headlines for votes. Honestly pretty disgusting to me. Don't involve/target kids in your political games. For either side.

Eliminatus said:

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Prune Tracy said:

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Or they could just allow the kids to gather in the library between the start of drop off time and the start of first period like our HS does. It's earmarked as "a time for reading the Bible or other religious texts" and requires parents to fill out a permission form before a student is allowed to join (likely to keep it as a quiet time and not becoming another general gathering space).

Some of y'all let the simplest stuff to get your panties in a twist.

---

We had a "meet at the flagpole" right after school for the same thing and with the same rules. 100% ok with that, ran flawlessly, and everyone was happy with it. We figured this **** out decades ago.

This mandated prayer stuff in school is performative BS to make some people feel good about themselves/ get their names in headlines for votes. Honestly pretty disgusting to me. Don't involve/target kids in your political games. For either side.

---

I think it's actually a pretty reasonable response to what the leftists are pushing in schools TBH. Signals to all liberals that their "drag queen story time" and "gay cartoon p0rn books in kids school libraries" and "boys in girls changing rooms" is not at all welcome here.

When Florida ordered Gender Queer (I can't post pictures of the masturbation/oral sex/sodomy images on here without getting perma ban) to be removed from their kids' school libraries, and said that trans/lgbtq school teachers couldn't proselytize to 3rd graders and younger behind parents backs, all liberals freaked out and compared Desantis to Hitler.

I know some of you want us to "be better than that...don't be like them"...but that is not how outright culture wars work. We will be lucky if it never gets violent TBH...and I honestly believe we should find a way to peacefully divorce. We have zero shared visions, desires, ideals, etc. Avg northerners and southerners killing each other en masse during the civil war had much more in common. Much more common ground.

1981 Monte Carlo said:

---

Dan Carlin said:

---

American Hardwood said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

4 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Luckily, Christianity finally progressed past this phase.

---

You mean the phase where they traveled to the Holy Land to defend Christians against the unprovoked attacks by....

Muslims?

---

Nope. But let's not pretend that Christianity doesn't have its own rather ugly, corrupt, oppressive, and violent past once it was co-opted for political and personal gain. It's been used in its own right to justify foul human behavior.

This doesn't mean that I'm comparing it to or in anyway justifying Islamic violence, oppression, corruption, etc. I find foul and unjustified behavior taken in the name of any religion equally unacceptable.

All that said, I was serious in my statement that I'm glad that Christianity has moved past that point in its history. I say this as a Christian.

---

To be clear, Christians have had some bad phases, Christianity has not. I'm not sure the same can be said of Islam.

---

Sure, take out the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery in the American south, French wars of religion, conquest/colonization of the new world, etc... absolutely no bad phases at all for Christianity!

---

Wait, what is wrong with The Crusades?

With regards to the rest, things like slavery and mistreatment of your fellow man go against Christ's teachings, very much so.

But Islam was founded by a genocidal maniac who forced a SIX year old girl to be his sex slave. They are still killing and enslaving and treating women worse than livestock in many places throughout the globe. Muhammad himself would hate the lukewarm peaceful muslims and would consider the ones who violently attack the infidels to be his utmost brothers.

It's silly to be like "well come Christians did some pretty bad things hundreds of years ago that Jesus would have disagreed with, so it's no different than the violent religion that was founded by a blood thirsty pedophile and still continues to cause all sorts of problems in pretty much every society across the world".

Just say you hate Christians, we'd at least respect your honesty.

---

Nope, you're wrong. No hatred here at all. Just goaltending on your part for the abuses of big religion.

Topical to this thread because the entire premise of pushing prayer down kids' throat at school is more of the same dominionist theology that has been part of Christianity since Constantine.

You can point back to what Jesus said (and this is a great starting point) but the point you're missing is that "Christianity" is the entire political/cultural structure that came AFTER Jesus. Jesus was a Jew and would hawk a loogie into the face of what "Christianity" has been in the past 1700 years.

Second grade, Kilgore, TX. Mrs. Galloway leads the entire class in the Pledge of Allegiance and then heads bowed for the Lord's Prayer - Protestant version.

I, at 8 years old was fine with it. But THAT'S what the school prayer issue was about originally.

Quote:

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Wait, what is wrong with The Crusades?

---

Study up. They were, for the most part a fuster cluck. And lots of Christian on Christian violence and conquering.

Eliminatus said:

---

Prune Tracy said:

---

Or they could just allow the kids to gather in the library between the start of drop off time and the start of first period like our HS does. It's earmarked as "a time for reading the Bible or other religious texts" and requires parents to fill out a permission form before a student is allowed to join (likely to keep it as a quiet time and not becoming another general gathering space).

Some of y'all let the simplest stuff to get your panties in a twist.

---

We had a "meet at the flagpole" right after school for the same thing and with the same rules. 100% ok with that, ran flawlessly, and everyone was happy with it. We figured this **** out decades ago.

This mandated prayer stuff in school is performative BS to make some people feel good about themselves/ get their names in headlines for votes. Honestly pretty disgusting to me. Don't involve/target kids in your political games. For either side.

---

Im glad to keep the two separate. Politics are much more likely to taint religion than for religion to fix politics.

Rubicante said:

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It's always interesting to me when people want Christianity in schools as though it will reinforce what they are learning at home/at their church. As someone who spent a number of years in a "Christian" school, I was constantly coming home with new ideas from different teachers. Such as:

-You can't get saved before 6, and you can't get saved after 66 (their interpretation of "666"
-Becoming addicted to nicotine makes you bound for hell
-John is ~2,000 years old and is still living on the isle of Patmos
-Charmander, Charmeleon, and Charizard Pokemon cards are demonic-possessed items through which demons can more effectively communicate with the person who has them in their possession.

---

Um, without asking for anything too specific, could you tell us what denomination or sect this school belonged to? Or was it an independent local thing?

Go to your church for religion, go to your tax payer funded school for education and keep them separated.

The problem with prayer in public schools is that it leads to religious discrimination. Are you going to treat Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Bahais on equal footing? What about Buddhists or Hindus?

As a teacher, I'm not even going to start keeping track of who signed what consent form. That's nonsense. If you're meeting before or after school, like a club, do whatever you want.

So, just like the ten commandments, this will be a giant waste of time & resources.

Jugstore Cowboy said:

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Rubicante said:

---

It's always interesting to me when people want Christianity in schools as though it will reinforce what they are learning at home/at their church. As someone who spent a number of years in a "Christian" school, I was constantly coming home with new ideas from different teachers. Such as:

-You can't get saved before 6, and you can't get saved after 66 (their interpretation of "666"
-Becoming addicted to nicotine makes you bound for hell
-John is ~2,000 years old and is still living on the isle of Patmos
-Charmander, Charmeleon, and Charizard Pokemon cards are demonic-possessed items through which demons can more effectively communicate with the person who has them in their possession.

---

Um, without asking for anything too specific, could you tell us what denomination or sect this school belonged to? Or was it an independent local thing?

---

The parent church of the school was Assembly of God, but iirc the requirement for the teachers was that they profess to be "Christian", not necessarily Assembly of God.

Was thinking it sounded kind of like the good ol' Days of Fire and Glory. They had all kinds of kids around Houston worried about the number of the beast back in the 80's.

The easy solution is just going back to the minute of silence many schools had to start the day for decades. Stay in your seat and do whatever you want silently. Doesn't allow anyone to make a show of it, doesn't allow for exploitation by agitators and allows anyone who legitimately wants to pray to do so.

Talon 07 said:

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Protestants are crazy. How the need for the Catholic Church isn't self evident will never make sense to me.

---

I mean, the Catholic Church claims they can actually turn bread and wine into flesh and blood on command and then spent hundreds of years murdering people who tried to test the claim. Let's not act like Protestants have a monopoly on crazy.