Air Canada and fire truck collision at LaGuardia

22,917 Views | 169 Replies | Last: 18 days ago by sts7049
TexAgBolter
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Gotta assume the pilots didn't make it based on the damage.

TexAgBolter
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ATC comms sound bad. Why was the firetruck cleared to go?
flakrat
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Why can't ATC control their air space. Good grief. If it's not their fault, I apologize.
flakrat
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Grok analysis puts the blame on the fire truck

flakrat
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Only 2 dead would surprise me. I'd assume the pilots and some /all in the truck.
Ag87H2O
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Sounded to me like ATC gave Truck 1 clearance to cross.
AggieBaseball06
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And AI fails once again.
EMY92
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ATC cleared the fire truck to cross the runway, then many seconds later told the fire truck to stop. Sounds like ATC told the truck to stop way too late. My guess is that the collision had already occurred by the time the fire truck was told to stop.
ts5641
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flakrat said:

Grok analysis puts the blame on the fire truck



Ugh this is terrible for all. You always seem to think you've made it and are safe once you land. But there are still plenty of obstacles to deal with.
Kansas Kid
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Assuming the fire truck was crossing where it was cleared to cross, a fatal error by ATC but how does the driver of the firetruck not look both ways as well before crossing and see the landing lights coming toward it?

Unfortunately, the pilots paid with their lives due to errors of two people. Hopefully, no one else on board will die due to this.
Kenneth_2003
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Was getting dressed, but have the TV on...

United flight on takeoff aborted, taxied back around, and attempted a 2nd takeoff and again aborted their takeoff. After the 2nd abort the United flight requested the trucks to check out the aircraft (presumably hot brakes?) and a smell inside the aircraft.

The responding emergency vehicle had to cross the landing runway in order to get to the United aircraft. I think I heard the TV interview say there was also some light fog/mist at the time. Might not have been thick enough to reduce visibility, but enough that lights start to blur and details are harder to discern?

***My speculation*** The ground controller got caught up in managing the potential emergency with the departing United aircraft (tunnel vision) and did not maintain the necessary situational awareness across their entire area(s) of responsibility.

edit to add... zoomed in o the X pic above. Yeah there is some light fog/mist on the field. It's a miracle the flight attendants sitting in the forward galley space weren't killed as well. I cant see the R1 door. I used a stock CRJ900 photo and there are 14 windows forward of the wing exit. The accident aircraft still shows 14 windows, just barely.


jopatura
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There was 1 ATC controlling both ground & air. United jet was having an emergency with fumes & a sick crew, a Frontier jet had turned the wrong way, and it was raining. Hindsight says arrivals should have been paused but everything may have spiraled very quickly.
Rapier108
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Full Go Team with the chair as the spokesperson.
sts7049
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jopatura said:

There was 1 ATC controlling both ground & air. United jet was having an emergency with fumes & a sick crew, a Frontier jet had turned the wrong way, and it was raining. Hindsight says arrivals should have been paused but everything may have spiraled very quickly.

strained ATC resources strike again it sounds like. trying to keep things moving but unable to stay in safe control
Logos Stick
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AggieBaseball06 said:

And AI fails once again.


An FSD Tesla firetruck would not have had this accident.
Martin Q. Blank
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flakrat said:

Why can't ATC control their air space. Good grief. If it's not their fault, I apologize.

ATC is waaaay overworked. Especially New York airspace.

Listen to this from 2 days ago and tell me anybody could handle this kind of workload and not cause an accident.

Martin Q. Blank
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fc2112
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Those poor pilots - I'm sure they saw that fire truck coming - heard the tower screaming STOP STOP STOP and were praying "please stop" since they couldn't do anything at that point.
Rockdoc
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If you've ever listened to an air band scanner near a big airport it is incredibly busy. I have an air band radio and here in CS listening to Easterwood tower and Houston approach, it is amazing how busy things are. If you throw in ground control it's frightening.
Esteban du Plantier
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Parentheses would be helpful here. This makes it sound like two planes and a truck:

between Jazz Airlines Flight 646, a Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-900, and a firetruck

Would read better as between Jazz Airlines Flight 646 (a Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-900) and a firetruck
.
aggiedata
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Air travel is a mess

infinity ag
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I hope they don't get the bright idea of "let's replace all ATCs with AI!" and fire everyone even before the tech has been proven to work 100% (not 99%). But knowing how things work, I won't be surprised if they do it to grab headlines, cut costs and make bonus targets.
pfo
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Martin Q. Blank said:

flakrat said:

Why can't ATC control their air space. Good grief. If it's not their fault, I apologize.

ATC is waaaay overworked. Especially New York airspace.

Listen to this from 2 days ago and tell me anybody could handle this kind of workload and not cause an accident.




Damn, I don't know how they can do all that perfectly! What a job!
Rubicante
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DEI isn't avocado; you don't have to put it on every thread.
JFABNRGR
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If you listen to the full 3-4 min of audio, just one time it will make you want to turn it off. Its a bunch of back n forth gibberish trying to figure out what to do with the United plane which has to declare an emergency because they were not getting the direction they needed to deal with fumes.
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
aggiehawg
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Dang! That was the apparatus The Hubs used to drive. Scary to think about.
P.H. Dexippus
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Quote:

The fire truck was crossing the tarmac after an air traffic controller gave it permission to respond to another plane reporting an odor onboard. Before the collision, an air traffic controller can be heard on airport communications frantically telling the fire truck to stop.

In a transmission nearly 20 minutes later, the controller appears to blame himself. "We were dealing with an emergency earlier," the controller said. "I messed up."

https://apnews.com/article/new-york-laguardia-airport-air-canada-collision-6a3cbabbeed76125fa5f7aed32679fd8
W
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how fast was the fire truck going?
Kansas Kid
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W said:

how fast was the fire truck going?

Given they were stopped waiting for clearance to cross, it would have barely been moving when it was hit. The kinetic energy was almost entirely from the plane.
G Martin 87
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Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't do and can't teach, get nice cushy positions developing government policies.
Aggie Jurist
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What's really terrifying to me - the plane was traveling between 90 and 80 kts (based on prelim data). At that speed, even thought they would have seen the truck a few seconds before the collision, there was little they could have done about it. At that speed there is no nosewheel authority, all they have is rudder. It was too late to go around and given the conditions, even differential braking was unavailable to them. They were stuck and knew they were likely about to die.
Rockdoc
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And engines probably in full reverse. I'm glad there was no fireball and assume the engines shut themselves down as soon as the cockpit was destroyed.
TexasAggiesWin
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S
W said:

how fast was the fire truck going?

Have not seen any information on estimates about the speed of the firetruck. The hold short line on taxiway Delta (where the firetruck that was hit was waiting to cross the runway at) would be around 250-280 foot from the runway centerline on runway 4/22 at LGA with the actual runway being 150 foot wide. I know those firetrucks are heavy and would take some time to get up to speed so not sure how quick they would have been moving across the runway when hit.

I had seem some information that the airplane was moving in excess of 90+ knots when the collision occurred but still waiting on the full details to come out about that. I'm amazed that more passengers were not killed during the collision.
ABATTBQ11
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W said:

how fast was the fire truck going?


Somewhere between too fast and not fast enough
lunchbox
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