Bring back Napoleon

Macron negotiated in German, that explains it!

MROD92 said:

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KentK93 said:

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I don't know why so many Americans think France is an ally because they seem to take every opportunity to stab the US in the back.


France Struck a Deal With Iran Over Strait of Hormuz? A Stab in the Back Again?

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My grandfather served in WWII and he always said he trusted the Germans more than the French

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Well remember France killed Americans in Africa instead of laying down their arms during Operation Torch.

The geopolitical consequences of going to war at the behest of a tiny, insignificant, vassal state with little-man syndrome.

Ah. My bad. Wasn't too clear. Tbf, though, I respect his decision for the most part. He felt there was undue influence on their military and doctrinal approaches from everyone else, mainly us, so yeah, withdrew. I can respect a nations desire to maintain a high level of independence. France has always had a very regard in the area for their armed forces. Far more than most. And history has largely seen that to be a good decision. Especially now.

And Indochina is a massive what if. We really don't know what would have happened or not. It's been discussed in another thread I made long ago on the history board. We do know there was nearly a decade between France leaving and the beginning of our involvement. Not to mention the ensuing escalation was completely on us and our mismanagement of the war.

KentK93 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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France has been a d-bag country for a long time.

We came over TWICE to save their ass in WWI and WWII. We formed NATO and have bases all over Europe.

Then, De Gaulle kicked us out in 1966-67...Ironically while we were getting in a quagmire trying to clean up their **** in SE Asia...

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Don't forget we supplied France with aircraft carriers & planes during their fight in SE Asia in the 40's & 50's.

Then they wouldn't allow over flights of F-111'S IN April of 1986, they also traded with countries that US sanctioned, and then you had France working against the US in the UN in lead up to Iraq war.

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It was interesting that in that 1986 air attack, a stray bomb accidentally hit the French embassy.

What did you expect to happen? They take it by force? This has been predicted before the war started. That Europe and other countries would be forced to negotiate directly with Iran and pay them for passage. In the end it strengthens Irans geopolitical power.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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What did you expect to happen? They take it by force? This has been predicted before the war started. That Europe and other countries would be forced to negotiate directly with Iran and pay them for passage. In the end it strengthens Irans geopolitical power.

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Great. So you don't let up the campaign. You restrict energy exports to Europe, maybe not explicitly but slow up approvals and stuff at the point of shipping. You go until Iran's economy collapses and the regime with it. The fact of the matter is this hurts China, India and the EU more than it does us. In addition, no country can survive the long term reality of hyperinflation. And that's what is happening inside Iran. Hit Kharg and Bandar Abbass. Hit energy infrastructure and power generation. Hit their telecoms. And if the EU have people they're doing business with over there in their petrochemical side, target those spots first. Tired of European arrogance.

That still won't open the straits.

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It was interesting that in that 1986 air attack, a stray bomb accidentally hit the French embassy.

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Thank you for that fact I didn't know!

Yes, during the 1986 US bombing of Libya (Operation El Dorado Canyon on April 1415, 1986), a stray US bomb accidentally struck or damaged the French embassy in Tripoli.
What Happened
US forces, primarily Air Force F-111s flying from Britain and Navy aircraft from carriers in the Mediterranean, targeted Libyan military sites, terrorist training facilities, and locations associated with Muammar Gaddafi in retaliation for Libyan-linked terrorist attacks (including the La Belle discotheque bombing in West Berlin).
One F-111's bombs missed their intended target (likely related to barracks or a nearby security/communications site in a residential area of Tripoli). The errant munitions struck civilian/diplomatic sites, damaging the French embassy (specifically the rear section, with windows blown out) along with nearby houses and a neighborhood.

Another fun history trivia is we fought a naval war against France after the American revolution.

KentK93 said:

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I don't know why so many Americans think France is an ally because they seem to take every opportunity to stab the US in the back.


France Struck a Deal With Iran Over Strait of Hormuz? A Stab in the Back Again?

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The French were also allied with the Nazis.. ( Vichy France ,19401944). Let that sink in.

Speaking of stinky people. WW2 vets could smell French body odor on their death beds.

They're the Peter Pettigrew of NATO.

Eliminatus said:

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Ah. My bad. Wasn't too clear. Tbf, though, I respect his decision for the most part. He felt there was undue influence on their military and doctrinal approaches from everyone else, mainly us, so yeah, withdrew. I can respect a nations desire to maintain a high level of independence. France has always had a very regard in the area for their armed forces. Far more than most. And history has largely seen that to be a good decision. Especially now.

And Indochina is a massive what if. We really don't know what would have happened or not. It's been discussed in another thread I made long ago on the history board. We do know there was nearly a decade between France leaving and the beginning of our involvement. Not to mention the ensuing escalation was completely on us and our mismanagement of the war.

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I respectfully disagree.

WWI and WWII were complete and utter failures.

The whole Vietnam War fiasco was predicated by their failures there. We were financing France there in their last years there and stepped in to support S Vietnam right after they left...

I'm not saying we were right in Vietnam...I'm just saying that we ended up thinking we needed to clean up their mess...

Yukon Cornelius said:

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What did you expect to happen? They take it by force? This has been predicted before the war started. That Europe and other countries would be forced to negotiate directly with Iran and pay them for passage. In the end it strengthens Irans geopolitical power.

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Gee...

So you're saying that Iran, having had their entire navy sank, their air force destroyed, most of their missiles and drones destroyed, and no nuclear weapons can easily shut down the SoH and charge payments?




I wonder what they could do if none of that happened...Seems like it might be a lot worse...

Um yes…. It's happening…

Ag with kids said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Ah. My bad. Wasn't too clear. Tbf, though, I respect his decision for the most part. He felt there was undue influence on their military and doctrinal approaches from everyone else, mainly us, so yeah, withdrew. I can respect a nations desire to maintain a high level of independence. France has always had a very regard in the area for their armed forces. Far more than most. And history has largely seen that to be a good decision. Especially now.

And Indochina is a massive what if. We really don't know what would have happened or not. It's been discussed in another thread I made long ago on the history board. We do know there was nearly a decade between France leaving and the beginning of our involvement. Not to mention the ensuing escalation was completely on us and our mismanagement of the war.

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I respectfully disagree.

WWI and WWII were complete and utter failures.

The whole Vietnam War fiasco was predicated by their failures there. We were financing France there in their last years there and stepped in to support S Vietnam right after they left...

I'm not saying we were right in Vietnam...I'm just saying that we ended up thinking we needed to clean up their mess...

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I am referring to the NATO era. France's fighting military was actually largely fine for both the world wars. It was the command doctrine that was lacking and part of it due to they were first to learn the hard way that war was changing in WW2. Their performance in WW1 was really no better or worse than the other major powers at the time. They were just mostly fought out and fighting conservatively by the time we showed up. They have enjoyed a large and powerful military for much of modern history. They, alone out of the NATO members aside from us, were the ones to focus on self sustainability as a core priority for their military. Sometimes even to a fault. (Check out their own 5.56 ammo type they used to have).

We got involved in Vietnam to stop communism. Was that France's fault? I don't know. Everyone else was dumping their colonies and if we follow the sentiment here, France had zero chance of stopping the creep of communism regardless. I posit that with our containment strategy our war was inevitable there. Agree to disagree there I guess.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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That still won't open the straits.

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If Iran keeps this up then...

Twenty years from now there will be pipelines and land shipping lanes across Saudi Arabia to the Red Sea and Iran will become irrelevant.

Especially if we just blockade all the Iranian ships trying to leave the Gulf of Oman...

People ship through the SoH because it's economical. When it's not, they'll go elsewhere. And I'm QUITE SURE that SA would love to make money while also ****ing over Iran...as would all the other Gulf states...

Iran has ZERO friends in the Middle East now that they've attacked all of them (well, ok, they have Yemen). Their friends are Russia, which is in a quagmire itself, and China...sucks to be them long term.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Um yes…. It's happening…

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So, they could do it anytime, is what you're saying.

Now, tell me that it wouldn't be worse if they had all that military equipment and nuclear weapons...

Eliminatus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Ah. My bad. Wasn't too clear. Tbf, though, I respect his decision for the most part. He felt there was undue influence on their military and doctrinal approaches from everyone else, mainly us, so yeah, withdrew. I can respect a nations desire to maintain a high level of independence. France has always had a very regard in the area for their armed forces. Far more than most. And history has largely seen that to be a good decision. Especially now.

And Indochina is a massive what if. We really don't know what would have happened or not. It's been discussed in another thread I made long ago on the history board. We do know there was nearly a decade between France leaving and the beginning of our involvement. Not to mention the ensuing escalation was completely on us and our mismanagement of the war.

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I respectfully disagree.

WWI and WWII were complete and utter failures.

The whole Vietnam War fiasco was predicated by their failures there. We were financing France there in their last years there and stepped in to support S Vietnam right after they left...

I'm not saying we were right in Vietnam...I'm just saying that we ended up thinking we needed to clean up their mess...

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I am referring to the NATO era. France's fighting military was actually largely fine for both the world wars. It was the command doctrine that was lacking and part of it due to they were first to learn the hard way that war was changing in WW2. Their performance in WW1 was really no better or worse than the other major powers at the time. They were just mostly fought out and fighting conservatively by the time we showed up. They have enjoyed a large and powerful military for much of modern history. They, alone out of the NATO members aside from us, were the ones to focus on self sustainability as a core priority for their military. Sometimes even to a fault. (Check out their own 5.56 ammo type they used to have).

We got involved in Vietnam to stop communism. Was that France's fault? I don't know. Everyone else was dumping their colonies and if we follow the sentiment here, France had zero chance of stopping the creep of communism regardless. I posit that with our containment strategy our war was inevitable there. Agree to disagree there I guess.

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Fair enough...

Gig 'Em and BTHO Vandy!

Hell yes. Gonna take the series! BTHOcandyboysandtheirstupidwhistler

Always a pleasure to have a good discussion with ya!

doubledog said:

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KentK93 said:

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I don't know why so many Americans think France is an ally because they seem to take every opportunity to stab the US in the back.


France Struck a Deal With Iran Over Strait of Hormuz? A Stab in the Back Again?

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The French were also allied with the Nazis.. ( Vichy France ,19401944). Let that sink in.

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One of my big issues is that DG kicked us out of France and withdrew from the integrated NATO military structure...

But, still expected NATO to save their ass if **** hit the fan...

It's basically the attitude the NATO "allies" have had during this "war" with Iran.

Organize a coalition of those willing to use military action to open things up. We don't need permission to act in our own best interest. Hit Kharg and take it offline without permanent destruction. Keep it offline until they collapse. Eh….what the hell do I know. I'm a surgeon. I cut disease out and cauterize the crater to prevent recurrences.