Ellis Wyatt said:

---

I'm not sure what your whining has to do with a feckless organization that is just stealing taxpayer money at this point?

---

The dems love NATO. They're not quite sure why but they're told to. NATO is worthless.

It's a common misperception apparently that Nato itself gives us basing rights in Nato member countries. This is something I learned this year. Nato doesn't even protect our rights to use our bases or air space in nato countries when needed, demonstrating again that it is merely a foreign entanglement.

If, somehow, countries become hostile toward us because we are not a nato member, and refuse to give us basing rights, we always have our friends in places like Obama-freed Libya, Syria, or elsewhere to station forces/ports.

AstroAggie15 said:

---

Does it affect us at all?

Does Europe become at risk to Russian influence? Does it really matter?

---

IDGAF about Europeans. All they ever do is whine about how "backwards" and "bigoted" the USA is while being parasites on our military budget. Let Russia take them over.

DeschutesAg said:

---

Whenever I read through a "Let's get out of NATO!" thread, I always wonder who the people are who post in favor of the U.S. leaving NATO.

Leaving NATO would literally be the dumbest thing our country has done this century thus far, and we have done some real clunkers.

---

Letting in millions upon millions of third world illegals and lying about it was far, far more inexplicable.

Ag87H2O said:

---

Not sure what good it does us to be in a military alliance where we can't depend on the alliance to help when we need it. Seems to me like in the last couple of decades it has become totally lopsided as far as who benefits from it.

I think Americans need to start accepting the idea that the old European alliances are no longer what they once were post WW2. Western Europe has trended politically and institutionally the way of our old enemy the Socialist Soviets, and now add in the Islamic elements and we no longer have a shared interest the way we once did. In fact, they have become flat out antagonistic on many fronts.

We don't need to burn any bridges that may need down the road, but we don't need to cater to them either. If countries want to pay their share and cooperate with us fine. If they don't, so be it. We've got to look out for our own interests, particularly in our own hemisphere.

---

why don't we just create a NEW alliance system similar to NATO but instead with

Finland

Latvia

Lithuania

Poland

Hungary

Rumania

Slovakia

Czech Republic

Italy

Greece

Cyprus

Israel

Silent For Too Long said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

We cannot project power into the ME without basing in Europe.

Full stop.

---

Do you intend to be funny?

---

Hawg…this is a math conversation.

---

Here's some math:

19 Middle East bases + 11 nuclear powered aircraft carriers = ???

---

Ignoring the fact we'd be dumping a half a trillion dollars in infrastructure in Europe…


How do our planes get to the ME? Where do they land to get fuel? Where do the tankers take off from to refuel our bombers?

Literally our entire AF force structure is designed around being able to make it Europe on a single hop.

Pulling out of NATO would legitimately be a trillion dollar action.

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

K2-HMFIC said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

We cannot project power into the ME without basing in Europe.

Full stop.

---

Do you intend to be funny?

---

Hawg…this is a math conversation.

---

Here's some math:

19 Middle East bases + 11 nuclear powered aircraft carriers = ???

---

Ignoring the fact we'd be dumping a half a trillion dollars in infrastructure in Europe…


How do our planes get to the ME? Where do they land to get fuel? Where do the tankers take off from to refuel our bombers?

Literally our entire AF force structure is designed around being able to make it Europe on a single hop.

Pulling out of NATO would legitimately be a trillion dollar action.

---

NATO sucking at being an ally is the problem.

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

Pull out of NATO. Tired of their weak knees.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

---

Aviano didn't drop.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

---

Aviano didn't drop.

---

They did then they did not.

https://theaviationist.com/2026/04/08/italy-no-policy-shift-on-us-bases/

Europe has lost its way.

The Western Hemisphere is the future for the next 1000 years. Been saying this for years.

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

---

Aviano didn't drop.

---

They did then they did not.

https://theaviationist.com/2026/04/08/italy-no-policy-shift-on-us-bases/

---

Aviano has a weird space in Italy…twenty years ago Italian Police, the CIA, and the Security Forces commander on base cooperated to get an Italian-Muslim Imam rendered out.

The Italian political apparatus freaked out.


Anywho…based on my reading is that ultimately we were allowed to fly over Italy? The website was being glitchy on my phone.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

---

Aviano didn't drop.

---

They did then they did not.

https://theaviationist.com/2026/04/08/italy-no-policy-shift-on-us-bases/

---

Aviano has a weird space in Italy…twenty years ago Italian Police, the CIA, and the Security Forces commander on base cooperated to get an Italian-Muslim Imam rendered out.

The Italian political apparatus freaked out.


Anywho…based on my reading is that ultimately we were allowed to fly over Italy? The website was being glitchy on my phone.

---

Unfortunately plenty of contradictory information misinformation out there.

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

bobbranco said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Why don't you take a look at how we got our forces in position for the current war. They didn't teleport to bases in the Middle East.

They went through Lajes, Rota, Moron, Lakenheath, Souda, Sigonella, and others

---

Portugal, Spain, Spain, England, Greece, Italy.

Which of those countries closed their airspace and bases for the current war?

---

One. And the other sites allowed us to flex…if we did not have them we could not have conducted EF.

If you want a real life example of what happens when we almost lost European airspace the last time check out Operation Nickel Grass

---

Huh??


Spain

https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-30/spain-closes-airspace-to-aircraft-involved-in-iran-war-but-us-bases-are-being-used-in-other-ways.html

Quote:

---

"We have denied the United States the use of the Rota and Morn bases for this illegal war. All flight plans involving operations in Iran have been rejected. All of them, including those for refueling aircraft," said Prime Minister Pedro Snchez last Wednesday in Congress. In other words, flyovers by bombers or tanker aircraft participating in this operation are not being approved. The Spanish ban has a single exception: in emergency situations, the aircraft in question will be authorized to transit or land.

---

Italy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-blocks-us-military-flights-from-sicilian-base-amid-iran-conflict/ar-AA1ZNVDM

Quote:

---

Italy has denied the United States (US) permission to use its Sigonella air base in Sicily for military flights after the flight plan was submitted only after departure, without prior approval.

According to reports, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto stated that Air Force General Staff had been notified of the flight plan of several US aircraft, which called for landing at Sigonella before continuing the mission.

---

---

Aviano didn't drop.

---

They did then they did not.

https://theaviationist.com/2026/04/08/italy-no-policy-shift-on-us-bases/

---

Aviano has a weird space in Italy…twenty years ago Italian Police, the CIA, and the Security Forces commander on base cooperated to get an Italian-Muslim Imam rendered out.

The Italian political apparatus freaked out.


Anywho…based on my reading is that ultimately we were allowed to fly over Italy? The website was being glitchy on my phone.

---

Unfortunately plenty of contradictory information misinformation out there.

---

True enough my dude.

AlaskanAg99 said:

---

Everyone completely misses the fact we can negotiate a new mutual defense treaty with whomever wants, respects and will be an ally.

But first you have to kill the old one to drive home the point the old order is gone.

---

Bingo.

Rockdoc said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

I'm not sure what your whining has to do with a feckless organization that is just stealing taxpayer money at this point?

---

The dems love NATO. They're not quite sure why but they're told to. NATO is worthless.

---

Because Trump finds it useless now and is calling it out on its inequities. It's always about Trump. Plus, they've been conditioned to think countries can't survive without it.

It's only 77 years old, many people think it's always been there or even if they don't think that they think we can't live without it. A lot of it is just conditioning. Remember the 16th amendment came in to play in 1913. But there was a time before that as well.

Just because something has done a certain way doesn't mean it needs to. Doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't but varies from case to case.

DeschutesAg said:

---

Whenever I read through a "Let's get out of NATO!" thread, I always wonder who the people are who post in favor of the U.S. leaving NATO.

Leaving NATO would literally be the dumbest thing our country has done this century thus far, and we have done some real clunkers.

---

If its so stupid, why don't you take the time to articulate what the US gets out of NATO and what we stand to lose.

Show your work.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? We can still be in NATO but it is still our prerogative as to when and where we send our forces in response to another member's request. Just like our bases and flyover rights vary from nation to nation.

That's already the case

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Old McDonald said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Old McDonald said:

---

NATO is the only alliance in history where the dominant military power gets 31 countries to organize their entire defense architecture around american leadership, american equipment, american interoperability standards, and american strategic priorities.

leaving surrenders the most favorable strategic arrangement any great power has ever negotiated and hands the board to russia and china for free.

---

Everything you posted is false.

Throughout history, hegemonic countries have exacted tribute to keep the wheels of global economy well greased while shouldering the brunt of the military load. Egypt, Assiyia, Babylon , Persia, Greece, Rome, the Mongols, the United Kingdom...

We are the most taken advantage of super power in history.

Don't be so naive.

---

every empire on that list collapsed, and the ones that lasted longest (Rome and Britain) did so precisely because they built alliance systems rather than ruling purely by extraction, which is the lesson you're ignoring in favor of a vibes-based reading of ancient history

---

Built alliances? The British empire capitulated one of the most powerful empires in history by parking capital ships in Chinese harbors and demanding they buy their opium or else.

Rome contolled the central trade routes of the world and demanded much in return for the pleasure. You either participated in global trade and paid Rome for the pleasure to do so or you stayed in isolation.

You really know nothing of history.

In no other time in history has the world super power bent over backwards so much to make their vassal states happy.

**** them. They know they project literally nothing on the global scale without us.

---

if that's the case then you know less than nothing

rome is actually the perfect example for my argument. the empire collapsed because it stretched itself across every frontier simultaneously, hollowed out its core, and alienated the federated allies whose troops it depended on to hold the borders. britain's gunboat diplomacy in china produced a century of resentment that ultimately expelled them from asia altogether, which is a strange model to hold up as a success.

the US built something genuinely unprecedented, a voluntary alliance network where the other nations subsidize american force projection with basing, intelligence sharing, and diplomatic cover. calling them vassal states rather than strategic assets is silly. that confuses domination with leverage in a way that every fallen empire would recognize too late.

That neglects the issue: why be in nato at all? Foreign entanglements should be revisited annually, at least. I'd prefer we copy some of DeGauls language when they booted us from France and mostly withdrew in the 60s, myself.

Your rebuttal on the opium wars is something that happend 100 years later.

Riveting analysis.

Rome got brought down by becoming overly reliant of foreigners to defend its own country. Its basically modern Europe.

This doesn't help your case. At all.

Europe is a bunch of vassal states. They produce nothing, the can't defend themselves, and they only exist because we allow them to do so.

GAC06 said:

---

How do we get to the ME without bases in Europe?

---

Morocco, Libya and Israel.

Your solution is Morocco and Libya…

Africa.

And you're willing to cut loose a half trillion in infrastructure to make investments in Africa?

nortex97 said:

---

That neglects the issue: why be in nato at all? Foreign entanglements should be revisited annually, at least. I'd prefer we copy some of DeGauls language when they booted us from France and mostly withdrew in the 60s, myself.

---

Here's my reasoning on that. The old alliance system in use before NATO ended up starting both WWI and WWII. those individualized defense agreements triggered countries that were not involved widening the scope, excluding the US until Pearl Harbor. (Aside from some ship attacks in WWI.)We were not under attack nor were we obligated by defense treaties.

The strength in NATO in the past was the US. So, being able to choose when, where and why we deploy our forces, while still technically a member of NATO straddles those two models and forces other European nations to take their own defense much more seriously.

ETA: Plus, not knowing if we would come into an armed conflict would be a disincentive to start anything.

I guess I can dust off my grandfather's Wheelus Air Force Base ashtray

As I already pointed out, that's already the case

https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/collective-defence-and-article-5

K2-HMFIC said:

---

Your solution is Morocco and Libya…

Africa.

And you're willing to cut loose a half trillion in infrastructure to make investments in Africa?

---

Sunk cost fallacy.

aggiehawg said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

That neglects the issue: why be in nato at all? Foreign entanglements should be revisited annually, at least. I'd prefer we copy some of DeGauls language when they booted us from France and mostly withdrew in the 60s, myself.

---

Here's my reasoning on that. The old alliance system in use before NATO ended up starting both WWI and WWII. those individualized defense agreements triggered countries that were not involved widening the scope, excluding the US until Pearl Harbor. (Aside from some ship attacks in WWI.)We were not under attack nor were we obligated by defense treaties.

The strength in NATO in the past was the US. So, being able to choose when, where and why we deploy our forces, while still technically a member of NATO straddles those two models and forces other European nations to take their own defense much more seriously.

ETA: Plus, not knowing if we would come into an armed conflict would be a disincentive to start anything.

---

It's never been that way.

All NATO nations, minus Portugal, didn't allow use of their bases to support Israel during the 72 War. We had issues with France during Libya in the 80s.

Those nations retain sovereignty of their space…and we have to work around that if we want to use it.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

Your solution is Morocco and Libya…

Africa.

And you're willing to cut loose a half trillion in infrastructure to make investments in Africa?

---

Maybe we can manage to avoid Europeans for a while. That was fine for the Cold War and may be once again but Europe needs to cycle through their socialist tendencies as Argentina did. A base in a country which resents us, welcomes our ideological enemies and condemns us for confronting an extremist enemy puts our forces at risk. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte stated plainly in an interview that we and Israel were doing work in destroying the Islamic regime in Iran which was beneficial for Europe. If so, why would they hate us?
Answer: it's genetic and the Europeans resent anyone who tells them the truth. We wasted a trillion in Afghanistan; why repeat that in Western Europe?

🚨 BREAKING: NATO SecGen Mark Rutte STUNS THE WORLD, comes out in SUPPORT of President Trump flaming our allies for abandoning the US during Operation Epic Fury

This comes after Rutte met 47 at the White House

RUTTE: "Some of them [failed]!" 🔥

"[Iran] would lead to a North… pic.twitter.com/7pjlbm8nJQ

— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) April 8, 2026

Quote:

---

"[Iran] would lead to a North Korea moment, where if you take so long, it's beyond the point you can get it done if they get a nuke...that is a BIG risk for Europe!"

HE KNOWS, NATO needs America, and they MESSED UP.

Rutte is desperately trying to keep NATO together. It's up to Trump now whether they get PUNISHED.

---

If they get to choose, so should we.

Quote:

---

Here's my reasoning on that. The old alliance system in use before NATO ended up starting both WWI and WWII.

---

For WW I: True

For WW 2: False. German Expansionism caused WW 2. Pacts with Germany we're just marriages of convenience except Russo/German NON-AGGRESSION pact which Germany ignored.