B-1 83 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Russia is a boomer fear. They've done nothing to me in my 45 years.

---

Spoken like someone who never had duck and cover drills and jumping under their desks when in elementary school. We had all sorts of drills back then. Fire drills, bomb threat drills and of course, nuclear holocaust drills.

Made an impression.

---

I legitimately imagine it did. I don't doubt that. That's why it's a boomer generation fear.

That said… We don't need to spend money today, that the boomers already spent all of, on soothing the childhood traumas of the boomers.

---

We were also reacting to our parents. When they were upset, we were scared. Was a toddler during the Cuban Missile Crisis. No idea what was really going on other than they were glued to the TV set and a lot of programming was preempted

Then JFK was shot. Was it the Soviets? A signal for a coming attack? Do we need to build a bomb shelter?

---

His dad also wasn't flying over the North Poll with 4 Mk28 H-bombs with Gorky and Moscow as targets when Moscow wanted nukes in Cuba. He was gone a lot for airborne alert in those days. He also didn't get to experience Soviet made missiles falling on his dad in 'Nam, or Soviet planes and PILOTS trying to shoot down his future father in law. The Soviets kept Cuba, Egypt, Syria, North Korea, and various terror groups well supplied. The Russian Federation has continued to supply weapons to our enemies and been an economic rival in Africa and in the oil and gas arena. Only a fool would take an eye off of Russia.

---

Exactly. Bygone era. USSR doesn't exist anymore and has not been a threat to the USA for 4 decades.

Focus on energy and the western hemisphere. Let our European Allies hold the line against Russia

"Your war is bad. My war is good." /Libiots

Come on guys, we all know anything that happened before I was born is ancient history and has no relevance to today

Phatbob said:

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Come on guys, we all know anything that happened before I was born is ancient history and has no relevance to today

---

And as we all have heard, a leopard never changes its spots. Russia has centuries and centuries of territorial conquests. But they pinky swear they won't do it again.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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GAC06 said:

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rgag12 said:

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Ukraine is winning? Another 4 years of "winning" and they won't be on the map

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Another four years at the rate Russia has been advancing would look pretty much the same as now.

---

Let Europe and Gallegos flush their money down that toilet. We have spent way more than warranted, which is $0.

---

Russia has been doing its best to thwart our interests for well over a decade, and every recent public statement and action out of them suggests they were planning to partner with China and work even harder against us. Paying a small portion of our defense budget to demolish their military and remove them as a major international player was a smart move, even acknowledging that some was grifted away. This is what a defense budget is for - to increase the security of our country by harming our enemies.

aggiehawg said:

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Phatbob said:

---

Come on guys, we all know anything that happened before I was born is ancient history and has no relevance to today

---

And as we all have heard, a leopard never changes its spots. Russia has centuries and centuries of territorial conquests. But they pinky swear they won't do it again.

---

Yes, and their cousins/our 'allies' (Turks/Poles/Germans/Lithuanians/French/Brits/Austro-Hungarians/Italians etc). The King, the Kaiser and the Tsar familial history is not just genetic, it's who/what Europe sub-surface still is today (absent the islamification).

(George V and Nicholas II, fwiw).

The 'great game' in Europe has changed less than many believe, imho.

CrackerJackAg said:

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B-1 83 said:

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aggiehawg said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

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Russia is a boomer fear. They've done nothing to me in my 45 years.

---

Spoken like someone who never had duck and cover drills and jumping under their desks when in elementary school. We had all sorts of drills back then. Fire drills, bomb threat drills and of course, nuclear holocaust drills.

Made an impression.

---

I legitimately imagine it did. I don't doubt that. That's why it's a boomer generation fear.

That said… We don't need to spend money today, that the boomers already spent all of, on soothing the childhood traumas of the boomers.

---

We were also reacting to our parents. When they were upset, we were scared. Was a toddler during the Cuban Missile Crisis. No idea what was really going on other than they were glued to the TV set and a lot of programming was preempted

Then JFK was shot. Was it the Soviets? A signal for a coming attack? Do we need to build a bomb shelter?

---

His dad also wasn't flying over the North Poll with 4 Mk28 H-bombs with Gorky and Moscow as targets when Moscow wanted nukes in Cuba. He was gone a lot for airborne alert in those days. He also didn't get to experience Soviet made missiles falling on his dad in 'Nam, or Soviet planes and PILOTS trying to shoot down his future father in law. The Soviets kept Cuba, Egypt, Syria, North Korea, and various terror groups well supplied. The Russian Federation has continued to supply weapons to our enemies and been an economic rival in Africa and in the oil and gas arena. Only a fool would take an eye off of Russia.

---

Exactly. Bygone era. USSR doesn't exist anymore and has not been a threat to the USA for 4 decades.

Focus on energy and the western hemisphere. Let our European Allies hold the line against Russia

---

Well...except for the fact that those thousands of ICBMs are STILL pointed at us...

I'd consider THAT a threat.

Ag with kids said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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B-1 83 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

Russia is a boomer fear. They've done nothing to me in my 45 years.

---

Spoken like someone who never had duck and cover drills and jumping under their desks when in elementary school. We had all sorts of drills back then. Fire drills, bomb threat drills and of course, nuclear holocaust drills.

Made an impression.

---

I legitimately imagine it did. I don't doubt that. That's why it's a boomer generation fear.

That said… We don't need to spend money today, that the boomers already spent all of, on soothing the childhood traumas of the boomers.

---

We were also reacting to our parents. When they were upset, we were scared. Was a toddler during the Cuban Missile Crisis. No idea what was really going on other than they were glued to the TV set and a lot of programming was preempted

Then JFK was shot. Was it the Soviets? A signal for a coming attack? Do we need to build a bomb shelter?

---

His dad also wasn't flying over the North Poll with 4 Mk28 H-bombs with Gorky and Moscow as targets when Moscow wanted nukes in Cuba. He was gone a lot for airborne alert in those days. He also didn't get to experience Soviet made missiles falling on his dad in 'Nam, or Soviet planes and PILOTS trying to shoot down his future father in law. The Soviets kept Cuba, Egypt, Syria, North Korea, and various terror groups well supplied. The Russian Federation has continued to supply weapons to our enemies and been an economic rival in Africa and in the oil and gas arena. Only a fool would take an eye off of Russia.

---

Exactly. Bygone era. USSR doesn't exist anymore and has not been a threat to the USA for 4 decades.

Focus on energy and the western hemisphere. Let our European Allies hold the line against Russia

---

Well...except for the fact that those thousands of ICBMs are STILL pointed at us...

I'd consider THAT a threat.

---

It's not…. They are a rational nation state with normal risk/reward assessment capabilities.

Zero advantage to launching ICBMs at the USA.

CrackerJackAg said:

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I don't care about Ukraine at all. It's a manufactured war Biden created for corruption and the MIC.

---

It takes next level ignorance to place the blame of a war on someone other than the country that invaded.

BTKAG97 said:

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"Your war is bad. My war is good." /Libiots

---

Idiots looking to argue from both ends of the extreme.

AgLA06 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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I don't care about Ukraine at all. It's a manufactured war Biden created for corruption and the MIC.

---

It takes next level ignorance to place the blame of a war on someone other than the country that invaded.

---

Exactly… we started it. We instituted a coup in a buffer state then floated EU and NATO status. Known red line for the Russians. Putin would have been crucified if he did not respond.

If you don't know that by now, then you and I really can't have a much of a conversation until you become less "ignorant" on the topic.

Not all conflicts start kinetically. I understand it's easy to see it that way if you view it in only metric and remain "ignorant" of the larger geopolitical issues.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is the mirror image argument as the US viewed Soviet missiles in Cuba as an existential red line and was willing to go to war over it. Russia views NATO on its border the same way.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

B-1 83 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

Russia is a boomer fear. They've done nothing to me in my 45 years.

---

Spoken like someone who never had duck and cover drills and jumping under their desks when in elementary school. We had all sorts of drills back then. Fire drills, bomb threat drills and of course, nuclear holocaust drills.

Made an impression.

---

I legitimately imagine it did. I don't doubt that. That's why it's a boomer generation fear.

That said… We don't need to spend money today, that the boomers already spent all of, on soothing the childhood traumas of the boomers.

---

We were also reacting to our parents. When they were upset, we were scared. Was a toddler during the Cuban Missile Crisis. No idea what was really going on other than they were glued to the TV set and a lot of programming was preempted

Then JFK was shot. Was it the Soviets? A signal for a coming attack? Do we need to build a bomb shelter?

---

His dad also wasn't flying over the North Poll with 4 Mk28 H-bombs with Gorky and Moscow as targets when Moscow wanted nukes in Cuba. He was gone a lot for airborne alert in those days. He also didn't get to experience Soviet made missiles falling on his dad in 'Nam, or Soviet planes and PILOTS trying to shoot down his future father in law. The Soviets kept Cuba, Egypt, Syria, North Korea, and various terror groups well supplied. The Russian Federation has continued to supply weapons to our enemies and been an economic rival in Africa and in the oil and gas arena. Only a fool would take an eye off of Russia.

---

Exactly. Bygone era. USSR doesn't exist anymore and has not been a threat to the USA for 4 decades.

Focus on energy and the western hemisphere. Let our European Allies hold the line against Russia

---

Well...except for the fact that those thousands of ICBMs are STILL pointed at us...

I'd consider THAT a threat.

---

It's not…. They are a rational nation state with normal risk/reward assessment capabilities.

Zero advantage to launching ICBMs at the USA.

---

I get your whole point about MAD...

But MAD only exists BECAUSE there is a threat.

Hell, we still have thousands of nukes. Why? Because Russia is a threat with nukes pointed at us...

CrackerJackAg said:

---

AgLA06 said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

I don't care about Ukraine at all. It's a manufactured war Biden created for corruption and the MIC.

---

It takes next level ignorance to place the blame of a war on someone other than the country that invaded.

---

Exactly… we started it. We instituted a coup in a buffer state then floated EU and NATO status. Known red line for the Russians. Putin would have been crucified if he did not respond.

If you don't know that by now, then you and I really can't have a much of a conversation until you become less "ignorant" on the topic.

Not all conflicts start kinetically. I understand it's easy to see it that way if you view it in only metric and remain "ignorant" of the larger geopolitical issues.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is the mirror image argument as the US viewed Soviet missiles in Cuba as an existential red line and was willing to go to war over it. Russia views NATO on its border the same way.

---

This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

Quote:

---

This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

---

That's not entirely accurate as our State Department and likely CIA were involved in the 2014 Maidan Revolution that deposed Yanukovych. Why? Because Yanukovych was deemed too friendly with Putin. (Kind of arguable how truly friendly he was versus the IMF putting extreme conditions upon Ukraine for loan terms and Putin did not.)

Our State Department hand-picked Poroshenko as Yanukovych's replacement. And Ukraine was heavily under the influence of the US. Pretty sure Putin would not like that on his doorstep.

So we did not force Putin into war in Ukraine but we were a factor, even if a small one.

ShaggySLC said:

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If Rubio, Desantis or JD doesn't win in '28, WW3 is all but guaranteed

---

Or WW one hundred eleven?

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

---

That's not entirely accurate as our State Department and likely CIA were involved in the 2014 Maidan Revolution that deposed Yanukovych. Why? Because Yanukovych was deemed too friendly with Putin. (Kind of arguable how truly friendly he was versus the IMF putting extreme conditions upon Ukraine for loan terms and Putin did not.)

Our State Department hand-picked Poroshenko as Yanukovych's replacement. And Ukraine was heavily under the influence of the US. Pretty sure Putin would not like that on his doorstep.

So we did not force Putin into war in Ukraine but we were a factor, even if a small one.

---

Fair enough...

But the Maidan Revolution wouldn't have worked if the public still wanted to be aligned with Putin and Russia...

Not saying the next choice was worth a ****, though...

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem. Best case is we don't know what they will do. Any way you slice it though there is virtually no US benefit to that level of escalation with Russia and the risk is massive. Iran is basically neutered and has little they can do to us at all anymore and the upside of getting them to capitulate (or regime change) is massive, Russia is a very different story. The reality is even if you got rid of Putin that probably would be worse based on what would happen. It would make getting rid of Ghaddafi look mild.

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

Quote:

---

Best case is we don't know what they will do.

---

We do know what they would do. There's over 4 years of war to know what they'll do.

Quote:

---

Russia is a very different story. The reality is even if you got rid of Putin that probably would be worse based on what would happen. It would make getting rid of Ghaddafi look mild.

---

He's dying soon one way or another. I bet it doesn't go down like post-Ghaddafi Libya at all.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

---

I can tell you're new here.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

---

I can tell you're new here.

---

Not really. But my question remains the same. Just give me your take.

Russia can have the Ukraine, keep us out of it.

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

---

I can tell you're new here.

---

Not really. But my question remains the same. Just give me your take.

---

I've long been for supporting Ukraine's defense against Russia. I'm one of the main posters in the tactical/strategic updates thread, though my posting has lessened since having some big life changes in the last year that leave me with less time to dedicate to following the conflict as closely as I did.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

---

I can tell you're new here.

---

Not really. But my question remains the same. Just give me your take.

---

I've long been for supporting Ukraine's defense against Russia. I'm one of the main posters in the tactical/strategic updates thread, though my posting has lessened since having some big life changes in the last year that leave me with less time to dedicate to following the conflict as closely as I did.

---

Yeah me too. It never made sense to me at all for any American to support Putin's aggression against another sovereign nation.

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Aggie Dad Sip said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

So as US citizens, should we be for Russia or against Russia?

---

I can tell you're new here.

---

Not really. But my question remains the same. Just give me your take.

---

I've long been for supporting Ukraine's defense against Russia. I'm one of the main posters in the tactical/strategic updates thread, though my posting has lessened since having some big life changes in the last year that leave me with less time to dedicate to following the conflict as closely as I did.

---

Yeah me too. It never made sense to me at all for any American to support Putin's aggression against another sovereign nation.

---

It's more about not blindly sending taxpayer dollars to Ukraine just to support them vs Russia. Ukraine first should be able to take care of themselves, second, their neighbors should be the leader in any aid going to them and then the US provides intelligence or aid as it seems fit. Nobody here supports Putin's aggression in the years I've been here. Many believe that the US shouldn't throw 200 billion of taxpayer dollars every time Russia and old Russian territories have a fight.

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

---

That's not entirely accurate as our State Department and likely CIA were involved in the 2014 Maidan Revolution that deposed Yanukovych. Why? Because Yanukovych was deemed too friendly with Putin. (Kind of arguable how truly friendly he was versus the IMF putting extreme conditions upon Ukraine for loan terms and Putin did not.)

Our State Department hand-picked Poroshenko as Yanukovych's replacement. And Ukraine was heavily under the influence of the US. Pretty sure Putin would not like that on his doorstep.

So we did not force Putin into war in Ukraine but we were a factor, even if a small one.

---

And our hand picked puppet was beaten by Zelensky. Then Russia invaded as a pure land grab.

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

Quote:

---

Best case is we don't know what they will do.

---

We do know what they would do. There's over 4 years of war to know what they'll do.

Quote:

---

Russia is a very different story. The reality is even if you got rid of Putin that probably would be worse based on what would happen. It would make getting rid of Ghaddafi look mild.

---

He's dying soon one way or another. I bet it doesn't go down like post-Ghaddafi Libya at all.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

You may be right. You may also be very wrong. We have no idea. What we do know though is Russia has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet. Maybe Putin has a heart attack tomorrow and is replaced by someone far worse, there really isn't a better solution. Maybe they have a civil war. Maybe it splits into a half dozen pieces. Do you know who some of the potential warlord nutcases that Putin keeps in line? You could have half a dozen new nuclear powers. We have no clue.

What we do know is that the US has very little to gain in the Ukraine situation no matter who wins. Peace is the best solution. Staying the hell out if it is the second best. Russia is a dangerous and difficult to predict country that can't be controlled by outsiders. You only want to poke the bear if you need to. In truth our best tactic is to make our own deal with Russia that pushes them away from China, cuts off Iran, and essentially allows us to focus little effort on Russia at all. They can't invade us. They can't beat us in any conventional way. We tussle with them to curry favor with Europe and out of a tradition as if the Cold War still existed. Please don't say Putin is someone we can't deal with or is just too horrible, hell Xi makes him look like a saint and make no mistake there are plenty of other leaders in the world worse than him. The key is putting US interests above European interests, they sure as hell don't hesitate to do the same to us.

Or Europe can always make it worth our while to keep Russia as an enemy but I don't see that happening unless you think the most important thing is being liked in Brussels and by the WEF or the chattering classes they represent. They still talk about the token force of troops they sent after 9/11 as if they were storming the beaches of Normandy and saving us when the only thing we gained was the perception of an alliance. Europe does very little for us against our strategic enemies.

BTW, the best way to deal with Europe from our perspective is to break up NATO and the EU and cut individual deals with European countries. That works better for us in trade and in security. If the EU is broken and the countries operate more independently we have far more leverage. It's also in those countries interest. Ever since the EU became a true force in the '90s Europe has been steadily losing its industrial might and technological base outside of a few exceptions. It's incredibly difficult to be a startup there and succeed and regulation kills business after business.

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

Quote:

---

Best case is we don't know what they will do.

---

We do know what they would do. There's over 4 years of war to know what they'll do.

Quote:

---

Russia is a very different story. The reality is even if you got rid of Putin that probably would be worse based on what would happen. It would make getting rid of Ghaddafi look mild.

---

He's dying soon one way or another. I bet it doesn't go down like post-Ghaddafi Libya at all.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

---

You may be right. You may also be very wrong. We have no idea. What we do know though is Russia has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet. Maybe Putin has a heart attack tomorrow and is replaced by someone far worse, there really isn't a better solution. Maybe they have a civil war. Maybe it splits into a half dozen pieces. Do you know who some of the potential warlord nutcases that Putin keeps in line? You could have half a dozen new nuclear powers. We have no clue.

What we do know is that the US has very little to gain in the Ukraine situation no matter who wins. Peace is the best solution. Staying the hell out if it is the second best. Russia is a dangerous and difficult to predict country that can't be controlled by outsiders. You only want to poke the bear if you need to. In truth our best tactic is to make our own deal with Russia that pushes them away from China, cuts of Iran, and essentially allows us to focus much effort on Russia at all. They can't invade us. They can't beat us in any conventional way. We tussle with them to curry favor with Europe and out of a tradition as if the Cold War still existed. Please don't say Putin is someone we can't deal with or is just too horrible, hell Xi makes him look like a saint and make no mistake there are plenty of other leaders in the world worse than him. The key is putting US interests above European interests, they sure as hell don't hesitate to do the same to us.

Or Europe can always make it worth our while to keep Russia as an enemy but I don't see that happening unless you think the most important thing is being liked in Brussels and by the WEF or the chattering classes they represent.

---

I don't understand why so many don't get this. Almost a Pavlovian response from them that we must fight Russia at all costs as if they are going to start parachuting in like in Red Dawn.

YouBet said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Deep strikes aren't invasions.

This thread is just another rehash of 4 year old talking points that have never been correct at all.

---

Russia will take it to be the same though and that's the problem.

---

There is ZERO evidence to support this.

Ukraine has literally occupied Russian territory in this war, including right now. Ukraine has been hitting deep behind Russian lines, even sometimes thousands of miles away from their border, repeatedly.

Quote:

---

Best case is we don't know what they will do.

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We do know what they would do. There's over 4 years of war to know what they'll do.

Quote:

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Russia is a very different story. The reality is even if you got rid of Putin that probably would be worse based on what would happen. It would make getting rid of Ghaddafi look mild.

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He's dying soon one way or another. I bet it doesn't go down like post-Ghaddafi Libya at all.

It's time to stop these bad talking points.

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You may be right. You may also be very wrong. We have no idea. What we do know though is Russia has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet. Maybe Putin has a heart attack tomorrow and is replaced by someone far worse, there really isn't a better solution. Maybe they have a civil war. Maybe it splits into a half dozen pieces. Do you know who some of the potential warlord nutcases that Putin keeps in line? You could have half a dozen new nuclear powers. We have no clue.

What we do know is that the US has very little to gain in the Ukraine situation no matter who wins. Peace is the best solution. Staying the hell out if it is the second best. Russia is a dangerous and difficult to predict country that can't be controlled by outsiders. You only want to poke the bear if you need to. In truth our best tactic is to make our own deal with Russia that pushes them away from China, cuts of Iran, and essentially allows us to focus much effort on Russia at all. They can't invade us. They can't beat us in any conventional way. We tussle with them to curry favor with Europe and out of a tradition as if the Cold War still existed. Please don't say Putin is someone we can't deal with or is just too horrible, hell Xi makes him look like a saint and make no mistake there are plenty of other leaders in the world worse than him. The key is putting US interests above European interests, they sure as hell don't hesitate to do the same to us.

Or Europe can always make it worth our while to keep Russia as an enemy but I don't see that happening unless you think the most important thing is being liked in Brussels and by the WEF or the chattering classes they represent.

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I don't understand why so many don't get this. Almost a Pavlovian response from them that we must fight Russia at all costs as if they are going to start parachuting in like in Red Dawn.

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Yep, the key is to get people to stop questioning the logic and get caught up in the "Putin is evil and we must stop him!" Of course, we don't really want to stop him but we want to contain him because containing him means we get to spend trillions on the problem with no end. There is so much money in power to be had from an endless Cold War. I lived in Europe as a kid and my Dad was stationed at Ramstein in the '80s when we had a real Cold War, this is not remotely that Russia. I went through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin when it wasn't a tourist destination. It's a world that is long gone.

I do remember living there was pretty great though and it is still a very plumb assignment if you are in the service, lots of incentive for people to want to be there and you get to bring your family. We got to tour all over and go skiiing in the Alps. Lots of senior level people that love going to stay in 5 star hotels and living the life in Europe on various junkets as well. Lot better than some 3rd world country. Problem is that living in a nice place far from any real threats has limited strategic value. when you are talking about massive bases spread all over Europe. We should certainly keep a presence there but could cut out half our troops and bases and not have any real impact.

ShaggySLC said:

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If Rubio, Desantis or JD doesn't win in '28, WW3 is all but guaranteed

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We were going to be at war with Iran in 3 months if Kamala won. Good thing she didn't! We waited 15 months to start that ***** Woohoo!!!

army01 said:

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Sh****SLC said:

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If Rubio, Desantis or JD doesn't win in '28, WW3 is all but guaranteed

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We were going to be at war with Iran in 3 months if Kamala won. Good thing she didn't! We waited 15 months to start that ***** Woohoo!!!

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War with Iran under Kamala =/= War with Iran under Trump. Kamala might have lobbed a few cruise missiles for show before airlifting more pallets of cash from USAID in exchange for another meaningless promise to stop developing a nuclear weapon. LOL

Ag with kids said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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AgLA06 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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I don't care about Ukraine at all. It's a manufactured war Biden created for corruption and the MIC.

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It takes next level ignorance to place the blame of a war on someone other than the country that invaded.

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Exactly… we started it. We instituted a coup in a buffer state then floated EU and NATO status. Known red line for the Russians. Putin would have been crucified if he did not respond.

If you don't know that by now, then you and I really can't have a much of a conversation until you become less "ignorant" on the topic.

Not all conflicts start kinetically. I understand it's easy to see it that way if you view it in only metric and remain "ignorant" of the larger geopolitical issues.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is the mirror image argument as the US viewed Soviet missiles in Cuba as an existential red line and was willing to go to war over it. Russia views NATO on its border the same way.

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This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

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Don't get so upset and start cursing Brother Ags with Kids. That's just not based in any actual reality though.

At this point, you're just choosing to remain ignorant and see everything through this extremely one-sided lens and you do you brother.

Do you know how silly it is to try and take something as complex as the Ukraine NATO/EU and Russia situation down to a single punch line.

I'm guessing you don't otherwise you'd be a lot more levelheaded and understand our role in starting this conflict. Ukraine's elites role in starting this conflict. And obviously Russia's decision to start this conflict.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. Do you perhaps only see the conflict as starting when Russia invaded? Were you just floored when all these bad men in Russia attacked all the sweethearts in Ukraine? Were you swelled with pride when America "the hero" stepped in to help the victims?

Can you literally not see the hypocrisy in your statements regarding Cuba when you got super upset and started cursing?

Cuba just wanted to "check notes" have an alliance with a country to protect them from the belligerent USA next door.

The world must be really confusing for you.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Gallego just wants more laundered money since some of the sources have been shut down. **** him. **** Ukraine.

The Vindmans can fight for Ukraine.

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Man, never thought I'd see the day when Republicans worshipped Putin and Russia. There's no doubt yall would've sided against democratic-Europe in the 1940s.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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AgLA06 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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I don't care about Ukraine at all. It's a manufactured war Biden created for corruption and the MIC.

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It takes next level ignorance to place the blame of a war on someone other than the country that invaded.

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Exactly… we started it. We instituted a coup in a buffer state then floated EU and NATO status. Known red line for the Russians. Putin would have been crucified if he did not respond.

If you don't know that by now, then you and I really can't have a much of a conversation until you become less "ignorant" on the topic.

Not all conflicts start kinetically. I understand it's easy to see it that way if you view it in only metric and remain "ignorant" of the larger geopolitical issues.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is the mirror image argument as the US viewed Soviet missiles in Cuba as an existential red line and was willing to go to war over it. Russia views NATO on its border the same way.

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This is absolute horse***** We didn't start it at all.

Putin has wanted to reunite the Motherland since taking power.

But, sure...it's America's fault. Putin HAD to do it because we threatened him with...*checks notes*...a defensive alliance that would prevent Russia from invading Ukraine...

BTW, putting NUKES 90 miles from the US border is not the same as joining a defensive alliance that just prevents you from attacking them...

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Don't get so upset and start cursing Brother Ags with Kids. That's just not based in any actual reality though.

At this point, you're just choosing to remain ignorant and see everything through this extremely one-sided lens and you do you brother.

Do you know how silly it is to try and take something as complex as the Ukraine NATO/EU and Russia situation down to a single punch line.

I'm guessing you don't otherwise you'd be a lot more levelheaded and understand our role in starting this conflict. Ukraine's elites role in starting this conflict. And obviously Russia's decision to start this conflict.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. Do you perhaps only see the conflict as starting when Russia invaded? Were you just floored when all these bad men in Russia attacked all the sweethearts in Ukraine? Were you swelled with pride when America "the hero" stepped in to help the victims?

Can you literally not see the hypocrisy in your statements regarding Cuba when you got super upset and started cursing?

Cuba just wanted to "check notes" have an alliance with a country to protect them from the belligerent USA next door.

The world must be really confusing for you.

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When are y'all moving to Russia? I hate that you lost Hungary with Putin… Was one of the few countries you're welcomed in.