Old Sarge said:

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91AggieLawyer said:

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flown-the-coop said:

---

If I got anything out of order or completely wrong, have at it. And obviously I have quite a bit of individual perspective and opinion in the below.

Bear with me here as I go on a bit of a run through some major events of 1979, the Carter Administrations anticipation of and reaction to these events, and the results still impacting us nearly 50 years later.

Five major geopolitical events occur in the MIddle East during the year 1979:

- The Iranian Revolution, later termed the Islamic Revolution of Iran
- The Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty
- Saddam Hussein's Takeover of Iran
- Grand Mosque Seizure in Mecca
- Iran Hostage Crisis

Many folks are getting up to speed on the 1979 revolution in Iran. I will not go into that great detail, but the quick of it is the Shah had become increasingly corrupt and losing grip on power, reacting by seizing a tighter grip which resulted in attempts to silence those challengers including the exile of a guy named Rumatoidullah Kohmeni. Some power struggles in neighboring Iraq had led to Kohmeni going to France where his teaching spread, ironically quicker back into Iran from France and protests erupt, shah is chased out, Kohmeni is helped Joe Biden style from the French airplane and boom, Islamic Republic of Japan.

Carter and friends are taken by surprise at this development, including the CIA issuing a report the year prior that Iran showed no signs of revolution and Carter hosting shah at state dinner where shah bragged about stability further pissing off dissidents in Iran and driving them to support Rumatoidullah Kohmeni. Score Number 1 huge ****up of 1979 by Carter admin from state department to intelligence operations.

Number 2 huge **** up is all on Jimmy boy. Seeking to score one on the Rus, Carter sees an opportunity to cozy up to the Islamists in Egypt and the tired Jews (from 3 or 4 wars with the a-rabs since founding in 1948) brokers a "peace deal" between the two countries. Neat, right? Not so much. Pisses the Arab world off royally causing ever growing hatred of the new Zionist state. Egypt dude goes home and is much castigated for making deal with the evil Semites.

Jews also feel jilted and though they are tired they realize the fight for them will never be over. Building on Number 1 **** Up, these developments solidify Khomenis grip on power in Iran and though many millions supported getting rid of the shah, not as many millions supported a theocracy by crazy hatin arse Quran thumping ayatollah with an iron grip on power, but Carter's personally brokered peace deal had other results.

Number 3 is the again bit unanticipated Saddam takeover of Iraq. Think this may just be Jimmy boy dozing off after too many bloodys on a Sunday morn, but the resulting gift here is the newly minted Saddam regime was poorly managed and quite possibly greenlighting Saddam's invasion of neighbor next door Iran. And guess what that did… further solidified the Number 1 **** up, the now huger one.

Coming in at Number 4 is the Grand Mosque Seizure in Mecca - this was another where we probably just didn't put enough of an eye on. Sunni Muslims who also have on affinity for all things mythical Mahdi decided the year was right to take over the grand mosque at the end of Hajj. Other than being a cool story of history (French paratroopers supposedly converted to Islam so they could assist in retaking the mosque), the Carter gift here are the missed signals, missed opportunities and lingering effects.

Part of the siege was to demand the ouster of the Saud royal family. This led to a big time turtling of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia over threats to their power. With ****up #3 above, Saddam would one day invade Kuwait causing Saudi to get scared and when offered assistance one day by a wealthy son, they chose the USA behind door #2. That jilted son was one Osama bin Laden who then continued on a jihadist journey of hating all things who had once ever pissed him off. The other miss here is that the concept of radical Islamism is not just a Shia thing, the Sunnis have their crazies too.

And the Iran taking of US hostages in the final year of the Carter admin. This one is straight up on Carter having no business ever participating in foreign relations and for that matter being POTUS. Biden level dumb. Sunday School teacher Jimmy hosts the deposed Shah of Iran for cancer treatments in the US. Our old buddy from Act 1 sees this as a great opportunity to solidify his still tenuous grip on his newly imagined Islamic Republic of Iran. Though he denies ordering it, the protests are encouraged and allowed.

The Carter admin in the years leading to and the year of 1979 have caused this Country and the world great harm for 50 years. It's why it's important to vote on policy and not feelz, smart experienced businessmen and not baptist closeted alcoholic peanut farmers from Georgia.

Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

---

I agree with about 80% of what you laid out here. It isn't really that I disagree, but I have to say, in fairness, that had Nixon avoided scandal and Reagan been elected in '76 (don't know if he would have even ran then had Nixon not resigned and Ford not been President), I'm not sure things would have been a great deal different. Hear me out.

We were SOLELY focused on communism through the '80s. The '70s, even before Carter, introduced world terrorism. Sure, it was primarily Islamic based, but regardless, we were woefully unprepared for it and even Reagan during his actual term didn't do a lot to stop it. I think a Reagan (or even other Republican) term from '76-80 MIGHT have avoided what we saw in Iran -- or at least, responded to it in a far more meaningful way than Carter's appeasement approach -- but would that have been enough? I ask that honestly as I hesitate to voice an opinion here. I don't think one, even in hindsight, could guess anywhere near accurately.

Our eye, since the '50s, were on the Soviets and they were still a threat in the late '70s. We NOW know we should have paid more attention and directed more resources to terrorism at least a decade earlier than we did. But I did policy debate in HS and briefly in college in the early and mid-80s. Terrorism RARELY came up. And this was an event where "nuclear war is good" and the Malthusian population bomb nightmare scenarios were ran without any blushing. I know you're thinking, "that's not real world and has nothing to do with anything," and you're largely right. But my point is that intelligent HS and college kids that are researching ANYTHING to try and gain an advantage in a debate event -- and would have had they stumbled on terrorism -- never bothered with it. That means literature (mags, newspapers, journals, etc.) largely ignored it.

We wasted 56K+ lives in Vietnam fighting an enemy that was easily beatable by other means. We're still dealing with a problem that started after Vietnam and many Presidents have had no answers to or largely ignored.

---

Hardline Islam is in bed with Socialism/Communism. Common goals. Destruction of the Western World.

Vietnam was winnable in short order, except for corrupt DemocRATS (see LBJ here) profiting off of an unnecessarily prolonged war.

Both could have been stifled long before now if Patton had his way with the USSR, and we treated Islam as the world's poison as it is, starting after WW2 when we were fully engaged.

ETA: We did not finish the job post WW2, while we had the chance and capabilities in local to do it.

---

The US could not have overrun the Soviets in 1945. The US population was tired of the war and wanted it over. They did not have the stomach for fighting our "allies" in 1945, nor did the average US Soldier who'd been fighting since June 6, 1944.

The Soviets were also not in the same tired, lack of suppliers situation the Germans were in 1945. They had a very large ground and Air Force and would have been a much stronger opponent than the Germans were, and the Germans were certainly not a pushover.

Somewhat related, saw a great documentary about the F14 Tomcat sale to Iran that happened before the revolution. In the final days as Americans were scrambling to get out of Iran, the last Grummen engineers disabled/removed some key components that rendered the Phoenix missile system unusable. Further, the new regime would not be able to replace them.

We sold and trained the Iranian Air Force nearly 80 Tomcats. Had the Phoenix missiles been operable they would have had serious air superiority in the war with Iraq which could have changed the whole landscape of the ME.

agracer said:

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Old Sarge said:

---

91AggieLawyer said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

If I got anything out of order or completely wrong, have at it. And obviously I have quite a bit of individual perspective and opinion in the below.

Bear with me here as I go on a bit of a run through some major events of 1979, the Carter Administrations anticipation of and reaction to these events, and the results still impacting us nearly 50 years later.

Five major geopolitical events occur in the MIddle East during the year 1979:

- The Iranian Revolution, later termed the Islamic Revolution of Iran
- The Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty
- Saddam Hussein's Takeover of Iran
- Grand Mosque Seizure in Mecca
- Iran Hostage Crisis

Many folks are getting up to speed on the 1979 revolution in Iran. I will not go into that great detail, but the quick of it is the Shah had become increasingly corrupt and losing grip on power, reacting by seizing a tighter grip which resulted in attempts to silence those challengers including the exile of a guy named Rumatoidullah Kohmeni. Some power struggles in neighboring Iraq had led to Kohmeni going to France where his teaching spread, ironically quicker back into Iran from France and protests erupt, shah is chased out, Kohmeni is helped Joe Biden style from the French airplane and boom, Islamic Republic of Japan.

Carter and friends are taken by surprise at this development, including the CIA issuing a report the year prior that Iran showed no signs of revolution and Carter hosting shah at state dinner where shah bragged about stability further pissing off dissidents in Iran and driving them to support Rumatoidullah Kohmeni. Score Number 1 huge ****up of 1979 by Carter admin from state department to intelligence operations.

Number 2 huge **** up is all on Jimmy boy. Seeking to score one on the Rus, Carter sees an opportunity to cozy up to the Islamists in Egypt and the tired Jews (from 3 or 4 wars with the a-rabs since founding in 1948) brokers a "peace deal" between the two countries. Neat, right? Not so much. Pisses the Arab world off royally causing ever growing hatred of the new Zionist state. Egypt dude goes home and is much castigated for making deal with the evil Semites.

Jews also feel jilted and though they are tired they realize the fight for them will never be over. Building on Number 1 **** Up, these developments solidify Khomenis grip on power in Iran and though many millions supported getting rid of the shah, not as many millions supported a theocracy by crazy hatin arse Quran thumping ayatollah with an iron grip on power, but Carter's personally brokered peace deal had other results.

Number 3 is the again bit unanticipated Saddam takeover of Iraq. Think this may just be Jimmy boy dozing off after too many bloodys on a Sunday morn, but the resulting gift here is the newly minted Saddam regime was poorly managed and quite possibly greenlighting Saddam's invasion of neighbor next door Iran. And guess what that did… further solidified the Number 1 **** up, the now huger one.

Coming in at Number 4 is the Grand Mosque Seizure in Mecca - this was another where we probably just didn't put enough of an eye on. Sunni Muslims who also have on affinity for all things mythical Mahdi decided the year was right to take over the grand mosque at the end of Hajj. Other than being a cool story of history (French paratroopers supposedly converted to Islam so they could assist in retaking the mosque), the Carter gift here are the missed signals, missed opportunities and lingering effects.

Part of the siege was to demand the ouster of the Saud royal family. This led to a big time turtling of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia over threats to their power. With ****up #3 above, Saddam would one day invade Kuwait causing Saudi to get scared and when offered assistance one day by a wealthy son, they chose the USA behind door #2. That jilted son was one Osama bin Laden who then continued on a jihadist journey of hating all things who had once ever pissed him off. The other miss here is that the concept of radical Islamism is not just a Shia thing, the Sunnis have their crazies too.

And the Iran taking of US hostages in the final year of the Carter admin. This one is straight up on Carter having no business ever participating in foreign relations and for that matter being POTUS. Biden level dumb. Sunday School teacher Jimmy hosts the deposed Shah of Iran for cancer treatments in the US. Our old buddy from Act 1 sees this as a great opportunity to solidify his still tenuous grip on his newly imagined Islamic Republic of Iran. Though he denies ordering it, the protests are encouraged and allowed.

The Carter admin in the years leading to and the year of 1979 have caused this Country and the world great harm for 50 years. It's why it's important to vote on policy and not feelz, smart experienced businessmen and not baptist closeted alcoholic peanut farmers from Georgia.

Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

---

I agree with about 80% of what you laid out here. It isn't really that I disagree, but I have to say, in fairness, that had Nixon avoided scandal and Reagan been elected in '76 (don't know if he would have even ran then had Nixon not resigned and Ford not been President), I'm not sure things would have been a great deal different. Hear me out.

We were SOLELY focused on communism through the '80s. The '70s, even before Carter, introduced world terrorism. Sure, it was primarily Islamic based, but regardless, we were woefully unprepared for it and even Reagan during his actual term didn't do a lot to stop it. I think a Reagan (or even other Republican) term from '76-80 MIGHT have avoided what we saw in Iran -- or at least, responded to it in a far more meaningful way than Carter's appeasement approach -- but would that have been enough? I ask that honestly as I hesitate to voice an opinion here. I don't think one, even in hindsight, could guess anywhere near accurately.

Our eye, since the '50s, were on the Soviets and they were still a threat in the late '70s. We NOW know we should have paid more attention and directed more resources to terrorism at least a decade earlier than we did. But I did policy debate in HS and briefly in college in the early and mid-80s. Terrorism RARELY came up. And this was an event where "nuclear war is good" and the Malthusian population bomb nightmare scenarios were ran without any blushing. I know you're thinking, "that's not real world and has nothing to do with anything," and you're largely right. But my point is that intelligent HS and college kids that are researching ANYTHING to try and gain an advantage in a debate event -- and would have had they stumbled on terrorism -- never bothered with it. That means literature (mags, newspapers, journals, etc.) largely ignored it.

We wasted 56K+ lives in Vietnam fighting an enemy that was easily beatable by other means. We're still dealing with a problem that started after Vietnam and many Presidents have had no answers to or largely ignored.

---

Hardline Islam is in bed with Socialism/Communism. Common goals. Destruction of the Western World.

Vietnam was winnable in short order, except for corrupt DemocRATS (see LBJ here) profiting off of an unnecessarily prolonged war.

Both could have been stifled long before now if Patton had his way with the USSR, and we treated Islam as the world's poison as it is, starting after WW2 when we were fully engaged.

ETA: We did not finish the job post WW2, while we had the chance and capabilities in local to do it.

---

The US could not have overrun the Soviets in 1945. The US population was tired of the war and wanted it over. They did not have the stomach for fighting our "allies" in 1945, nor did the average US Soldier who'd been fighting since June 6, 1944.

The Soviets were also not in the same tired, lack of suppliers situation the Germans were in 1945. They had a very large ground and Air Force and would have been a much stronger opponent than the Germans were, and the Germans were certainly not a pushover.

---

Had we won the war in the Pacific before the war in Europe it would have been a very different outcome. FDR also should never have run for that last term and it allowed Stalin to roll over him in the end of war planning. Had we let Patton loose (btw I do buy the conspiracy theory he was taken out, he was extremely dangerous to Truman and a LOT of people in Command in Europe) and listened to Churchill that would also have been a very different story. The US also had a MASSIVE air advantage over the Soviets at that time and we had tens of thousands of planes with quality pilots and the Soviets were spread incredibly thin. The US military at the end of WW2 in Europe was mind boggling.

The key would have been not trying to go all the way and invade Russia but instead to have the goal off sending them back into their own borders. We sold out Eastern Europe out of weakness and idiocy.

docb said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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docb said:

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Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

Seriously WTF is wrong with you?

---

Going to assume you didn't read the OP if your conclusion on what I wrote is that there is something wrong with me and not Carter.

I stand by what I wrote. All you got is some vague seemingly ad hommish response. Engage in discussion or just move on. Easy choices.

---

Would you think it would be appropriate for someone to say wishing you were never born the world would be a better place?

---

There are a lot of people who, had they never been born, would have resulted in the world being a far better place.

Carter, IMO, isn't super high on that list. But he's on it. But people like Mohammed, Rasputin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Che, Castro, etc. top the list without a doubt.

Urban Ag said:

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Somewhat related, saw a great documentary about the F14 Tomcat sale to Iran that happened before the revolution. In the final days as Americans were scrambling to get out of Iran, the last Grummen engineers disabled/removed some key components that rendered the Phoenix missile system unusable. Further, the new regime would not be able to replace them.

We sold and trained the Iranian Air Force nearly 80 Tomcats. Had the Phoenix missiles been operable they would have had serious air superiority in the war with Iraq which could have changed the whole landscape of the ME.

---

Sadly what was left of the Iranian Tomcat fleet didn't even get to go out with their boots on - they were destroyed while sitting on taxiways and in hangars. The last relics of a bygone era.

schmellba99 said:

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docb said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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docb said:

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Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

Seriously WTF is wrong with you?

---

Going to assume you didn't read the OP if your conclusion on what I wrote is that there is something wrong with me and not Carter.

I stand by what I wrote. All you got is some vague seemingly ad hommish response. Engage in discussion or just move on. Easy choices.

---

Would you think it would be appropriate for someone to say wishing you were never born the world would be a better place?

---

There are a lot of people who, had they never been born, would have resulted in the world being a far better place.

Carter, IMO, isn't super high on that list. But he's on it. But people like Mohammed, Rasputin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Che, Castro, etc. top the list without a doubt.

---

I agree. But I don't think Carter is anywhere close to that list. I am not a Democrat but saying the guy should never have been born and spawn of Satan is just extreme. And stupid, but I am not surprised.

The Iranian tomcats didn't have all of their Phoenix missiles sabotaged, but some of them (I've never figured out how many). They were still used effectively in the Iran-Iraq war, and they happily let the Soviets inspect the look down shoot down radar on the birds which was a real loss of tech advantage. The F-14 was actually chosen before the fly off at Andrews AFB, fwiw.

Even though it was really just a dog and pony show, the competitive nature of the McD/Grumman teams probably made the performances quite entertaining, imho.

The Iranians had F-16's on order/pilots in training state-side too when Carter's evil genius ayatollah pal/shah betrayal plan kicked in for the people of Iran and our embassy staff. Reza Pahlavi and his father were trained as fighter pilots I think, could be wrong.

Sorry for the derail. Carter also gutted our own military spending/posture, everything from ICBM's, bombers, to maintenance and procurement (including cut backs to F-14 production fwiw). The 'hollow army' president as he became known.

Red neck history is fun.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I just added it to the list.

docb said:

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schmellba99 said:

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docb said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

docb said:

---

Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

Seriously WTF is wrong with you?

---

Going to assume you didn't read the OP if your conclusion on what I wrote is that there is something wrong with me and not Carter.

I stand by what I wrote. All you got is some vague seemingly ad hommish response. Engage in discussion or just move on. Easy choices.

---

Would you think it would be appropriate for someone to say wishing you were never born the world would be a better place?

---

There are a lot of people who, had they never been born, would have resulted in the world being a far better place.

Carter, IMO, isn't super high on that list. But he's on it. But people like Mohammed, Rasputin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Che, Castro, etc. top the list without a doubt.

---

I agree. But I don't think Carter is anywhere close to that list. I am not a Democrat but saying the guy should never have been born and spawn of Satan is just extreme. And stupid, but I am not surprised.

---

Seems there are more than a couple of us extreme stupid people.

Always forgoing the topic of discussion to lob some ignorant off topic insult.

From what rock on high do you cast your stones down on us deplorables? The one that says Carter taught Sunday School so he must be super Jesus dude?

I laid out quite a lengthy post before arriving at my summation. You chalk it up to to someone being extreme, stupid but never say why. Just feelz and ad hom. Stay out of the discussion if you don't care to participate in it.

WestAustinAg said:

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Premium drive-bys Red neck history is fun.

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flown-the-coop said:

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WestAustinAg said:

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Premium drive-bys Red neck history is fun.

---

---

Oh, you think F16 is your ally. But you merely adopted this board; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. And by then, it was nothing to me but blinding.

flown-the-coop said:

---

docb said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

docb said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

docb said:

---

Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

Seriously WTF is wrong with you?

---

Going to assume you didn't read the OP if your conclusion on what I wrote is that there is something wrong with me and not Carter.

I stand by what I wrote. All you got is some vague seemingly ad hommish response. Engage in discussion or just move on. Easy choices.

---

Would you think it would be appropriate for someone to say wishing you were never born the world would be a better place?

---

There are a lot of people who, had they never been born, would have resulted in the world being a far better place.

Carter, IMO, isn't super high on that list. But he's on it. But people like Mohammed, Rasputin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Che, Castro, etc. top the list without a doubt.

---

I agree. But I don't think Carter is anywhere close to that list. I am not a Democrat but saying the guy should never have been born and spawn of Satan is just extreme. And stupid, but I am not surprised.

---

Seems there are more than a couple of us extreme stupid people.

Always forgoing the topic of discussion to lob some ignorant off topic insult.

From what rock on high do you cast your stones down on us deplorables? The one that says Carter taught Sunday School so he must be super Jesus dude?

I laid out quite a lengthy post before arriving at my summation. You chalk it up to to someone being extreme, stupid but never say why. Just feelz and ad hom. Stay out of the discussion if you don't care to participate in it.

---

It is not a meaningful discussion and honestly I don't think you are capable of a meaningful discussion. Lots and lots of posts with little to no useful information.

agracer said:

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The US could not have overrun the Soviets in 1945. The US population was tired of the war and wanted it over. They did not have the stomach for fighting our "allies" in 1945, nor did the average US Soldier who'd been fighting since June 6, 1944.

The Soviets were also not in the same tired, lack of suppliers situation the Germans were in 1945. They had a very large ground and Air Force and would have been a much stronger opponent than the Germans were, and the Germans were certainly not a pushover.

---

We can never know what might have happened in the summer of 45 had we correctly identified the Russians for the problem they were going to be. To say we could not have, in a definitive case like that, is problematic. They were closer to their homeland, but they were still in a foreign nation. Do you think the average Russian was not also tired of war and wanted it over? Our soldiers had been fighting for far longer a time than from June 6, 1944, by the way, but theirs had been fighting the Nazis since mid-1941. Yet you imply they were not also tired.

We had something they did not - air power. Yes, they had an air force, but it would have been outclassed in every way possible against the air force that we had pummeled Germany with over the past 3 years.

We should have listened to Patton, who evidently recognized the threat that the Soviets represented. He wanted to send them back to where they belonged, i.e., not drive on Moscow and put up a US flag over the Kremlin. I absolutely believe we could have kicked them back to Russia.

Don't forget the Soviets invading Afghanistan a month after the embassy is seized, leading to Carter's wonderful decision to use American athletes as pawns and boycott the Moscow Olympics.

None of you are old farmers, because his idiotic grain embargo and farm crisis would be the top of
Your list. Add in high inflation and interest rates, and he was a disaster for the farm community.

The only President bad enough that 10,000 farmers drove tractors to DC to protest this goofball

So side note, he was not a peanut farmer. His family ran a peanut warehouse.

Ag87H2O said:

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Let's not forget the Panama Canal treaty giveaway.

Carter was truly not fit to hold the office of President. It's not just that he made poor decisions, he made ones that impacted this country negatively for decades. He had a true knack for being wrong, especially on the big things.

---

Or the Soviet invasion of AFG, which due to the commie focus explained above, led to arming the Muhajadeen, ultimately empowering Bin Laden, and eventually giving rise to the Taliban and 9/11. So many negative consequences from the Carter presidency.

Jeff84 said:

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Don't forget the Soviets invading Afghanistan a month after the embassy is seized, leading to Carter's wonderful decision to use American athletes as pawns and boycott the Moscow Olympics.

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Carter destroyed Kansas farmers with his wheat embargo:

https://la.utexas.edu/users/hcleaver/357L/357Lsum_s4_Paarlberg_FA80.html

Quote:

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How did Colorado wheat grower Bill Warren take the President's address?
"Not very well," he says. "He didn't go all the way. We can't sell grain to the Russians, but it looks like we can still sell them Coca Cola. If he was really serious about an embargo, he should have embargoed all exports to the Soviet Union."
Grain farmers and the organizations that represent them are concerned that the American farmer will bear a disproportionate share of the burden of trade restrictions against the Soviets. This feeling persists even though Mr. Carter outlined several steps he would like to take to ease the economic impact of the embargo on US farmers.

---

https://www.csmonitor.com/1980/0107/010742.html

WestAustinAg said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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WestAustinAg said:

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Premium drive-bys Red neck history is fun.

---

---

Oh, you think F16 is your ally. But you merely adopted this board; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. And by then, it was nothing to me but blinding.

---

Appreciate you wasting your time on the little people.

docb said:

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flown-the-coop said:

---

docb said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

docb said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

docb said:

---

Tl;dr Carter is the spawn of the devil and the world would be a better place if he had never been born.

Seriously WTF is wrong with you?

---

Going to assume you didn't read the OP if your conclusion on what I wrote is that there is something wrong with me and not Carter.

I stand by what I wrote. All you got is some vague seemingly ad hommish response. Engage in discussion or just move on. Easy choices.

---

Would you think it would be appropriate for someone to say wishing you were never born the world would be a better place?

---

There are a lot of people who, had they never been born, would have resulted in the world being a far better place.

Carter, IMO, isn't super high on that list. But he's on it. But people like Mohammed, Rasputin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Che, Castro, etc. top the list without a doubt.

---

I agree. But I don't think Carter is anywhere close to that list. I am not a Democrat but saying the guy should never have been born and spawn of Satan is just extreme. And stupid, but I am not surprised.

---

Seems there are more than a couple of us extreme stupid people.

Always forgoing the topic of discussion to lob some ignorant off topic insult.

From what rock on high do you cast your stones down on us deplorables? The one that says Carter taught Sunday School so he must be super Jesus dude?

I laid out quite a lengthy post before arriving at my summation. You chalk it up to to someone being extreme, stupid but never say why. Just feelz and ad hom. Stay out of the discussion if you don't care to participate in it.

---

It is not a meaningful discussion and honestly I don't think you are capable of a meaningful discussion. Lots and lots of posts with little to no useful information.

---

Sure lol buddy.

One really bad thing about Carter was that he was even worse as a Former President.

I certainly didn't give up doing damage where he could…

BCCI comes to mind.

Carter was stupid to have fallen for their pitch.

Everyone else they approached turned them down. I believe that BCCI approached Kissinger and he didn't want to have anything to do with their massive fraud.

flown-the-coop said:

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Appreciate the book recommendation, added to the list.

I am sure I have oversimplified things in my OP and as mentioned it has my slant on it based on my knowledge, which is always a work in progress.

Also appreciate others taking the time to give their own perspectives and to clarify / correct anything that may be not quite so right.

---

I really enjoyed it after reading it a few years ago. Gave great perspective on the culture and time and context. It was also amazing how many things are relevant today or seeing how they evolved and it really connected some dots for me. Iran is a very misunderstood country by so many because it is so complex. For instance it goes into a lot of depth on the difference in the different regions of Iran and the difference between the very poor and almost primitive rural and mountain communities are while the big cities were extremely modern and well educated, much of that is still true today. It's so frustrating to understand as well what was lost and how different the world would have been for the last 5 decades if they had not gone on to become such a radical muslim terror regime which really only reflects a small portion of the population. So many who were so excited and supported Khamanei were also among the first to be executed. Just a great time capsule.

Carter was also the US official who foreign leaders most wanted to deal with. He would give them what they wanted and to hell with the United States. He really showed that when he went to North Korea on behalf of the first Bush administration.

My understanding is that he went there to deliver a message, not to negotiate with them over anything. Once he got there, he negotiated everything away.

Original Khomeni, or da OK, wanted to establish nothing but Islamic Republic. He follows teachings of Al-Banna and others from the Muslim brotherhood to use Islam to united arabs against the ever encroaching west.

Fortunately it didn't catch on as quick or as far as he would have liked, but the regime very much feels it is their "destiny" to fulfill the promise of the new caliphate.

Look forward to reading the book.

On a positive note, the concept of these Islamic republics can disappear as quick as they came on the severe. My hope is that with the fall of Iran we begin the end of Islamic regimes of Muslim terrorists who want to welcome back Mahdi and kill the west.

eric76 said:

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Carter was also the US official who foreign leaders most wanted to deal with. He would give them what they wanted and to hell with the United States. He really showed that when he went to North Korea on behalf of the first Bush administration.

My understanding is that he went there to deliver a message, not to negotiate with them over anything. Once he got there, he negotiated everything away.

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Probably provided his expertise as a nuclear engineer.

****ing traitor.

japantiger said:

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I'd really only add one thing. Carter and the leaders of the UK, FR and W DE all met in Jan '79 (Guadalupe Conference) and agreed to officially and collectively sell out the Shah.

This was the culmination of nearly a year of slowly backing away from support and failing to counter Islamist and Communist propaganda and false flags like the Cinema-Max massacre.

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I'm not familiar with the Cinema-Max massacre and a quick Internet search doesn't turn up anything.

Could you elaborate on that event?

I was only 9 years old in 1979 and had lived in Saudi Arabia where we didn't get a lot of news anyway. Apologies if this event is common knowledge from the era.

It was the Emmanuel Does Riyadh episode. Perhaps it didn't play much on cable there at the time.

I'm with you, not sure I am familiar with.

eric76 said:

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Carter was also the US official who foreign leaders most wanted to deal with. He would give them what they wanted and to hell with the United States. He really showed that when he went to North Korea on behalf of the first Bush administration.

My understanding is that he went there to deliver a message, not to negotiate with them over anything. Once he got there, he negotiated everything away.

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Clinton administration, it was in 1994, and as usual Jimmy just thought he was the perfect guy to go deliver surrender/apology terms to an enemy subjugating their starving people and attempting/threatening to do so to others. Utterly duplicitous, as always.

A nuclear north Korea is still today a consequence of this Carter 'win':

Quote:

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Gary Samore, former White House coordinator for arms control and weapons of mass destruction during the Obama administration, said Carter's mission was "ultimately successful, but the Clinton administration was unhappy because Carter didn't try to get any constraint on North Korea's nuclear program as part of a resolution of that immediate conflict."

Hubbard offered a similar view.

"What made it controversial, I think, is that Carter accepted some positions that went beyond the Clinton administration's positions with North Korea, and then he announced them publicly on CNN before even informing us," Hubbard said. "That was quite a shock."

CNN, which closely followed Carter's visit to Pyongyang, first reported that Carter told the North Koreans the U.S. had stopped pursuing international sanctions against North Korea, which Clinton soon flatly denied.

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Rodman was a much more effective Ambassador.

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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agracer said:

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The US could not have overrun the Soviets in 1945. The US population was tired of the war and wanted it over. They did not have the stomach for fighting our "allies" in 1945, nor did the average US Soldier who'd been fighting since June 6, 1944.

The Soviets were also not in the same tired, lack of suppliers situation the Germans were in 1945. They had a very large ground and Air Force and would have been a much stronger opponent than the Germans were, and the Germans were certainly not a pushover.

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We can never know what might have happened in the summer of 45 had we correctly identified the Russians for the problem they were going to be. To say we could not have, in a definitive case like that, is problematic. They were closer to their homeland, but they were still in a foreign nation. Do you think the average Russian was not also tired of war and wanted it over? Our soldiers had been fighting for far longer a time than from June 6, 1944, by the way, but theirs had been fighting the Nazis since mid-1941. Yet you imply they were not also tired.

We had something they did not - air power. Yes, they had an air force, but it would have been outclassed in every way possible against the air force that we had pummeled Germany with over the past 3 years.

We should have listened to Patton, who evidently recognized the threat that the Soviets represented. He wanted to send them back to where they belonged, i.e., not drive on Moscow and put up a US flag over the Kremlin. I absolutely believe we could have kicked them back to Russia.

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Not to deraul this thread into another "what we should have regarding the USSR after the war" but one factor I don't think gets acknowledged much is how many communist sympathizers and outright Soviet spies had found positions in high levels of the Federal Government. Communist sentiment had been a creeping problem in America since the early 20th century. The Great Depression and massive unemployment even fanned the flames. I don't think we understood how big the problem was until McCarthy started his crusade, and he was so obnoxious people would rather remain in denial. I think a war against the Soviets in the 1940s-50s would have been as hard to fight on the home front as it would in eastern Europe/western Asia.

CanyonAg77 said:

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None of you are old farmers, because his idiotic grain embargo and farm crisis would be the top of
Your list. Add in high inflation and interest rates, and he was a disaster for the farm community.

The only President bad enough that 10,000 farmers drove tractors to DC to protest this goofball

So side note, he was not a peanut farmer. His family ran a peanut warehouse.

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ah, yes....and how many of you remember the 'misery index'?

Came out in the WSJ I believe (could be wrong on that one).....

SunrayAg said:

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Carter was the most incompetent president ever.

LBJ was the most evil president ever.

Obama was the most anti American president ever.

And yet Biden and his puppeteers were enough of all 3, that they managed to do more harm to the country than the other 3 combined.

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Spot On.

While I agree Carter was a horrible president, there seems to be a lot of smoke around the idea that someone in Reagan's campaign (most likely campaign manager if true) told Iran to hold off on releasing the hostages until Reagan was elected.

There's never been enough to prove it, but if it's true, that definitely changes at least some aspect of Carter's legacy.