Crazy to see how many have been in orgs with bad implementations of Agile. Done wrong, yeah, it's horrible. Done right, it allows flexibility when creating new solutions, failing fast, quick windows to see what's working and not, and for established teams pretty decent delivery expectations. There's also a reason why there's different flavors of Agile. For some of my past teams, Scrum made more sense. For a more operations based team, Kanban was the better model allowing for more flexibility.

But as someone else already said, anything implemented wrong is probably going to fail. I know I've turned multiple failing teams into high performers because they were doing it wrong, whether it be being to strict, or trying to force old ways into a model where they clearly wouldn't fit.

infinity ag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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We fixed the keg said:

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......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

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Much like the dumbass 6 Sigma *****..

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I think 6 Sigma had levels of experts like in Karate or Taekwondo.... I don't remember what they are called, like "Sensei" or something.

The problem is when companies think they can "democratize" software to everyone. They basically want more labor so invent these ways to pull everyone in. In the early days it was for real smart people. Now any immigrant wife can join as a scrum master and enforce "rituals" and become a girlboss.

---

Green belts, black belts....etc

Yeah, dumb as hell. All it does is make things less efficient, and time consuming. Which, funnily for the business world, means $$$$ spent/lost.

I think Green, white, and black belts

BigRobSA said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

We fixed the keg said:

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......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Much like the dumbass 6 Sigma *****..

---

I think 6 Sigma had levels of experts like in Karate or Taekwondo.... I don't remember what they are called, like "Sensei" or something.

The problem is when companies think they can "democratize" software to everyone. They basically want more labor so invent these ways to pull everyone in. In the early days it was for real smart people. Now any immigrant wife can join as a scrum master and enforce "rituals" and become a girlboss.

---

Green belts, black belts....etc

Yeah, dumb as hell. All it does is make things less efficient, and time consuming. Which, funnily for the business world, means $$$$ spent/lost.

---

I don't know about that. My first job out of college had a big green belt push. Some things were a waste but I saw major wins as well. One in particular was a ****ty job
They always gave to someone new and I only missed it because someone else came in month earlier. She was miserable and we targeted that job as a lean initiative.

We turned it into something that someone can do as a side job of a few hours a week instead of 50

Saxsoon said:

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BigRobSA said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

We fixed the keg said:

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......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Much like the dumbass 6 Sigma *****..

---

I think 6 Sigma had levels of experts like in Karate or Taekwondo.... I don't remember what they are called, like "Sensei" or something.

The problem is when companies think they can "democratize" software to everyone. They basically want more labor so invent these ways to pull everyone in. In the early days it was for real smart people. Now any immigrant wife can join as a scrum master and enforce "rituals" and become a girlboss.

---

Green belts, black belts....etc

Yeah, dumb as hell. All it does is make things less efficient, and time consuming. Which, funnily for the business world, means $$$$ spent/lost.

---

I don't know about that. My first job out of college had a big green belt push. Some things were a waste but I saw major wins as well. One in particular was a ****ty job
They always gave to someone new and I only missed it because someone else came in month earlier. She was miserable and we targeted that job as a lean initiative.

We turned it into something that someone can do as a side job of a few hours a week instead of 50

---

You didn't need a "green belt push" for that. That's the problem. Any effective leader should have been able to handle that.

Try being a design rnginrrr and your curporate software tools are perpetually beta quality, broken, or down for fixes and updates, and always changing. It is extremely frustrating as a user.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Try being a design rnginrrr and your curporate software tools are perpetually beta quality, broken, or down for fixes and updates, and always changing. It is extremely frustrating as a user.

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Like the guy running the "e" on your keyboard?

We fixed the keg said:

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......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Best one sentence description of it I have read. We hired a company to develop some reports for us that used agile. I was not familiar with it at the time (this was over five years ago). I sat in on a few scrum meetings and said "this is bull****". Sure enough after six months and thousands of dollars they failed to produce anything.

Six Sigma Ruined a great company I worked for. Stupid belts and all.

as others have said.... agile, six sigma, TQM, Itil, and the list goes on.... nothing but time spent trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.

Technology is nothing more than a tool. Just like a wrench, screwdriver, jack, etc. They all have a unique purpose, but in the end they are all the same. They allow the user the ability to do something efficiently and with less effort.

Putting a tool into the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it does neither of those things and becomes as worthless as the wrong tool.

infinity ag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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We got sucked into Fagan Inspection training.

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My first job out of A&M called us into a meeting for "Fagan Inspection" training. This was in 1999. Some dude called Michael Fagan started this. What a waste of time. They made us sit through weeks of training. Fagan made a lot of money fooling companies.

---

If you worked at a certain large company on the west side of FTW, you might have been in some of the same training I was in...

kubiak03 said:

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Six Sigma Ruined a great company I worked for. Stupid belts and all.

---

Buddy of mine got sucked into management for awhile and had to do that 6sig *****

He hung his green belt on his wall - any random person would think he was proud of it. However, all of us in the group knew that was his wall of shame - he put all sorts of other dumb **** that he'd had to deal with up there, too. Like the parking ticket we got in Paris...

TQM had genuinely useful concepts - KPIs, Pareto analysis, SPC - and those tools didn't lose their value just because the broader methodology fell out of fashion. Six Sigma was emerging right as I transitioned from a Fortune 200 company to a small tech firm, so I never worked in a full Six Sigma environment. At the smaller company we used pieces of TQM pragmatically, and they worked. I push back on the blanket criticism of TQM - throwing out the whole framework ignores the real tools that still hold up.

That is how I feel honestly. Slavish adoration to a process is definitely not good. But there are good ideas these things have.

Why does it seem like people in certain levels of management get caught up in flashy-sounding trends so much? Lean 6 Sigma, Agile, etc.

Why not just K.I.S.S. and do your jobs? Seems like it causes fewer problems.

Previous company gave Toyota's TQM training which asks "5 whys" for root-cause analysis. But the instructor didn't bring enough training books for everyone, so I asked "why" -- he wasn't amused at the irony.

Logos Stick said:

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TQM had genuinely useful concepts - KPIs, Pareto analysis, SPC - and those tools didn't lose their value just because the broader methodology fell out of fashion. Six Sigma was emerging right as I transitioned from a Fortune 200 company to a small tech firm, so I never worked in a full Six Sigma environment. At the smaller company we used pieces of TQM pragmatically, and they worked. I push back on the blanket criticism of TQM - throwing out the whole framework ignores the real tools that still hold up.

---

Yes, lots of good tools!

BTW, I was a Certified Quality Engineer (CQE). Next to qualifying exams for doctorates, most comprehensive exams I ever took. Went in with a wheelbarrow's worth of books.

CEOs and CIOs (and directors) love buzz words and seem to not to be able to make choices or lead unless they look at what their peers are doing.

BigRobSA said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

We fixed the keg said:

---

......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Much like the dumbass 6 Sigma *****..

---

I think 6 Sigma had levels of experts like in Karate or Taekwondo.... I don't remember what they are called, like "Sensei" or something.

The problem is when companies think they can "democratize" software to everyone. They basically want more labor so invent these ways to pull everyone in. In the early days it was for real smart people. Now any immigrant wife can join as a scrum master and enforce "rituals" and become a girlboss.

---

Green belts, black belts....etc

Yeah, dumb as hell. All it does is make things less efficient, and time consuming. Which, funnily for the business world, means $$$$ spent/lost.

---

Yes!! That is it!

These clowns have turned the entire software business into a joke.
The problem started as always with bad CEO-ship. When engineering CEOs began to be supplanted by sales CEOs.

When in doubt, always look at the top leadership. He is almost always the problem.

Tailgate88 said:

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We fixed the keg said:

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......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Best one sentence description of it I have read. We hired a company to develop some reports for us that used agile. I was not familiar with it at the time (this was over five years ago). I sat in on a few scrum meetings and said "this is bull****". Sure enough after six months and thousands of dollars they failed to produce anything.

---

I second you.
Too much worship of the process and not enough to the goal/product. I even got into trouble at a company when I said it. I shouldn't have been too frank because many people there were running their shop with all these buzzwords and I was treading on their toes.

FOMO runs the industry. It was "data is the new oil" and then Data Science became a big thing 10 years ago with new data science degrees. I told my son, NO Data Science degree. NO NO. Do good ol boring Computer Science or GTFO. And that is what I did. Now Data Science degrees are looking faddish and dated. A friend's kid did that.

The current fad is AI. That will die down soon when tokens get so expensive that companies say it is better to hire good old software engineers instead of AI. But not many have the balls to say this openly as they will be canceled as Luddites.

Ag with kids said:

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infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

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We got sucked into Fagan Inspection training.

---

My first job out of A&M called us into a meeting for "Fagan Inspection" training. This was in 1999. Some dude called Michael Fagan started this. What a waste of time. They made us sit through weeks of training. Fagan made a lot of money fooling companies.

---

If you worked at a certain large company on the west side of FTW, you might have been in some of the same training I was in...

---

My employer at that time was where most of this nonsense started. I never worked in FTW but the company at that time was so large and international that I am sure they had an FTW office. They did have an Austin office.

I am pretty sure it was the same training. Mike Fagan, the cult head was never there himself, but his minions would be there with their know-it-all attitudes. I remember even putting that on my resume in 2000 that I was "Fagan-certified"!

Saxsoon said:

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That is how I feel honestly. Slavish adoration to a process is definitely not good. But there are good ideas these things have.

---

That is because it is easy. Much easier to be an "Agile Evangelist" than to create a new product like an iPhone. It takes a strong leader to tell them to cut the crap, but maybe the Board also has the same FOMO and need for "growth".

infinity ag said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

We got sucked into Fagan Inspection training.

---

My first job out of A&M called us into a meeting for "Fagan Inspection" training. This was in 1999. Some dude called Michael Fagan started this. What a waste of time. They made us sit through weeks of training. Fagan made a lot of money fooling companies.

---

If you worked at a certain large company on the west side of FTW, you might have been in some of the same training I was in...

---

My employer at that time was where most of this nonsense started. I never worked in FTW but the company at that time was so large and international that I am sure they had an FTW office. They did have an Austin office.

I am pretty sure it was the same training. Mike Fagan, the cult head was never there himself, but his minions would be there with their know-it-all attitudes. I remember even putting that on my resume in 2000 that I was "Fagan-certified"!

---

Yeah. It was that same training.

Training sessions felt like they were trying to brainwash us...

I ALSO put it on my resume because I assumed a bunch of other companies were dumb enough to think it was worthwhile.

Waffledynamics said:

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Why does it seem like people in certain levels of management get caught up in flashy-sounding trends so much? Lean 6 Sigma, Agile, etc.

Why not just K.I.S.S. and do your jobs? Seems like it causes fewer problems.

---

I think because their boss (CEO/Board) may ask them "if you are not doing anything, why do we even need you?? You are fired!". So these levels are always tinkering with things even when things are going well. To show movement. Involvement. They are just covering their asses. They also get things to talk about in their 1-1 meetings with their boss.

Quote:

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VP: "Steve, we are bringing in consultants next week from Fagan Associates to get our staff Fagan-Certified. They have a track record of increasing quality and throughput by 100%!! Microsoft, Motorola, Cisco follow it."

CEO Steve: Uhh... good good. We need to bring in new ideas and processes. Send me the details, and I will tell the Board about what we are doing.

Board Members: Uhhhh okay good. We can keep our board seats as we are showing that we aren't left behind.

---

Most of these people are not dumb to not know. All they are doing is managing up.

Abilene Paradox also at play.

Quote:

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The Abilene Paradox is a management concept where groups collectively make decisions that conflict with the personal desires of their members. Everyone falsely believes others agree with a decision, so they stay silent to avoid conflict, resulting in a dysfunctional outcome that nobody actually wanted

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Ag with kids said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

We got sucked into Fagan Inspection training.

---

My first job out of A&M called us into a meeting for "Fagan Inspection" training. This was in 1999. Some dude called Michael Fagan started this. What a waste of time. They made us sit through weeks of training. Fagan made a lot of money fooling companies.

---

If you worked at a certain large company on the west side of FTW, you might have been in some of the same training I was in...

---

My employer at that time was where most of this nonsense started. I never worked in FTW but the company at that time was so large and international that I am sure they had an FTW office. They did have an Austin office.

I am pretty sure it was the same training. Mike Fagan, the cult head was never there himself, but his minions would be there with their know-it-all attitudes. I remember even putting that on my resume in 2000 that I was "Fagan-certified"!

---

Yeah. It was that same training.

Training sessions felt like they were trying to brainwash us...

I ALSO put it on my resume because I assumed a bunch of other companies were dumb enough to think it was worthwhile.

---

Heh... I was new to the workforce and was clueless so I felt maybe this was valuable. I don't throw away these things so if I look, I am sure to find my certificate. And maybe a 1999 version of my resume. Soon after, it felt icky so I quickly removed it.

From wikipedia.



I wonder if we were at the same company. The only clue I will give is:

Quote:

---

Batman

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

We got sucked into Fagan Inspection training.

---

My first job out of A&M called us into a meeting for "Fagan Inspection" training. This was in 1999. Some dude called Michael Fagan started this. What a waste of time. They made us sit through weeks of training. Fagan made a lot of money fooling companies.

---

If you worked at a certain large company on the west side of FTW, you might have been in some of the same training I was in...

---

My employer at that time was where most of this nonsense started. I never worked in FTW but the company at that time was so large and international that I am sure they had an FTW office. They did have an Austin office.

I am pretty sure it was the same training. Mike Fagan, the cult head was never there himself, but his minions would be there with their know-it-all attitudes. I remember even putting that on my resume in 2000 that I was "Fagan-certified"!

---

Yeah. It was that same training.

Training sessions felt like they were trying to brainwash us...

I ALSO put it on my resume because I assumed a bunch of other companies were dumb enough to think it was worthwhile.

---

Heh... I was new to the workforce and was clueless so I felt maybe this was valuable. I don't throw away these things so if I look, I am sure to find my certificate. And maybe a 1999 version of my resume. Soon after, it felt icky so I quickly removed it.

From wikipedia.



I wonder if we were at the same company. The only clue I will give is:

Quote:

---

Batman

---

---

Company based in downtown Chicago?

"You just haven't seen it implemented correctly" is the same thing you hear about socialism. There are too many fundamental things wrong with the methodology. For those that think they have seen it done well, I'd imagine that opinion is not held universally at wherever they were across IT and business partners.

As I am reading this, I keep saying agile like the dad in a Christmas Story said fragile. Look honey, it's from Italy. Fragile!

I was voluntold I needed to get my 6 Sigma Green Belt at my last employer. So I did, on their dime. And now it's just something to put on my resume to give me a bit of a leg up. But I don't actually use it anymore. I did enough to get the certification, implemented my "project", then forgot it all.

Unfortunately, they didn't get rid of all the contract works aka. H1B's. There are a ton there. Walk into one of the floors and you are taken to India. All of their work is crap also. besides the customer website, all the internal systems suck.

Same here up to the point "it is on my resume" I don't want to end up paired with positions having anything to do with six sigma. My only experiences have been with the 'cult' side so I am definitely jaded.

jja79 said:

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Explain Agile for the retired guys.

---

I'm just thankful we dinosaurs missed out on it. There were a few fad "silver bullet" development methodologies back in the old mainframe software days that were a bit unwieldly, but they were all similar and usually worked okay if a project team had enough competent people. Upper management never seemed to catch on to the fact the real silver bullet was having enough competent people.

Phatbob said:

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Software can be difficult to estimate and plan, and oftentimes gives stakeholders no indication of issues until late into the process, so agile development basically breaks up projects into 2 week (usually) chunks called "sprints".

Each sprint has deliverables from the team and the stakeholders have visibility as to the progress and issues that come up as they arise. Well done, it allows for reaching milestones with evaluations where you could end up with a much different, but more effective, final product based in midstream adjustment opportunities.

Done poorly, it is just a regular project with a bunch of extra meetings.

---

This is a very accurate summary.

DeschutesAg said:

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Upper management never seemed to catch on to the fact the real silver bullet was having enough competent people.

---

A lot of truth here. It's an ongoing weakness of upper management. They are constantly trying to improve financial performance by managing headcount aggressively, and they frequently gloss over competency of the organization as a key requirement and then wonder why they fail to deliver on key commitments.

BigRobSA said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

We fixed the keg said:

---

......too much time and energy went to serving the process and not the goal.

---

Much like the dumbass 6 Sigma *****..

---

I think 6 Sigma had levels of experts like in Karate or Taekwondo.... I don't remember what they are called, like "Sensei" or something.

The problem is when companies think they can "democratize" software to everyone. They basically want more labor so invent these ways to pull everyone in. In the early days it was for real smart people. Now any immigrant wife can join as a scrum master and enforce "rituals" and become a girlboss.

---

Green belts, black belts....etc

Yeah, dumb as hell. All it does is make things less efficient, and time consuming. Which, funnily for the business world, means $$$$ spent/lost.

---

I worked at the company that created six sigma. I fortunately was not there long enough to get a belt of any color. Current place has some sort of training nonsense where you become a "jedi".